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Question
#42096. majorstirrer1
asks:
Who was the founder of Europe's oldest royal family?
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griffinj
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Hugh Capet (938-966), the house of Bourbon, represented in the elder line by King Juan Carlos, is the senior surviving branch of the house of Capet.
The elder line of Capet became extinct with the death of Charles IV in 1328. The next eldest line, the house of Valois died out with Henry III in 1589. That left the house of Bourbon as the senior line of Capet. Juan Carlos is directly descended from the grandson of Louis XIV, who became Philip V, the first Bourbon King of Spain. The French descendants of Louis XIV of Bourbon ended with the Count of Chambord who died in 1883. The current claimants to the French throne are of the house of Bourbon-Orleans, descended from the younger brother of Louis XIV.
"King Juan Carlos is the heir male of Hugh Capet, who ascended the French throne in 987, a line of decent not easily equaled" "Heraldry of the Royal Families of Europe" Louda and Maclagan; New York 1981
 http://www.users.wineasy.se/dg/france.htm
http://www.heraldica.org/topics/bourbon.htm
http://gsteinbe.intrasun.tcnj.edu/royalty/houses/carlist.html
Dec 08 03, 1:09 AM
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Siskin
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Gorm the Old was his name.
He was the founder of the Danish Royal Family. Other wonderful names were Erik the Lame, Sweyn Forkbeard and Valdemar the Victorious.
The current monarch is Queen MargaretheII, who is from the Oldenburg Dynasty, and is the latest in an unbroken line of descendants - 50 Kings and Queens - to survive from Viking times to the present.
http://www.danish.com/html/royalfamily.html
Dec 08 03, 6:50 AM
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griffinj
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Darn, all that typing and I'm still wrong. But that is why I love this site.
(Eystein Ivarrson, grandfather of Rolf, 1st Duke of Normandy, direct ancestor of Elizabeth II, was born c.800)
The male line of the ancient Kings expired with the death of Waldemar IV in 1375. The last direct decdnant of Sweyn II Estridson (d. 1074?) through the female line was Christopher III who died childless in 1448. the Danish people elected Chrisitan I, Duke of Oldenbourg as king and he married Christopher's widow. The Danish monarchy might be the oldest, but I don't think the family is.
http://www.danskekonger.dk/eng/biografi/ChrI.html
http://www.eu2002.dk/denmark/default.asp?MenuElementID=6119
Dec 08 03, 7:45 AM
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markklein199
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I'm going to say Francois Grimaldi of Monaco. The Grimaldi family has been ruling the country continously since 1297. However, I often read the questions wrong on this site, so if the question is really asking for Europe's oldest continuous monarchy, then Denmark would be right.
http://www.monaco.mc/monaco/700ans/grimaldi.html
Revise that last answer, I'm not sure if the Grimaldis are the longest continuosly ruling family (due to times when Monaco was under the control of Spain and France) but they are the oldest unbroken royal family. As Griffin correctly noted, the Oldenburg branch of the Danish monrachy has only been ruling the country since 1448. Also, while Francois Grimaldi was the first to take control over Monaco in 1297, the founder of the royal family might technically be his father Rainier, though I was unable to find a definitive answer.
http://www.danish.com/html/royalfamily.html
Dec 08 03, 9:38 AM
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griffinj
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I'm not sure about the criteria here. If tracing back through male and female lines. Queen Elizabeth can go back to Eystein Ivarrson (see above) and Egbert (d.839). Or the Capets (now represented by Bourbon) can go back to Pepin I (d. c. 640). The Queen of the Netherlands can go back to Baldwin I Count of Flanders (d. 879). There are legendary predecessors, but there is no reliable information for the Danish royal house before 900. At 1297, that puts the Grimaldis as nearly parvenu. The only problem with this sort of reasoning is that every time a claim passes through a female it is considered a change of family; otherwise the present Queen of Great Britain would be termed “of Wessex”.
If it’s reasoned by continual rule, without any interregnum like the Commonwealth or Spain under Franco, Denmark might qualify at the oldest continual monarchy (in Europe), but that is very different than a royal family. Japan’s family legendarily dates to 600 b.c., but authenticated dates go back to the 6th century.
Major, now that you’ve lived up to the name and stirred all this up, how about a ruling?
p.s. the Kings of Spain can go back to Pelayo , King of the Asturias (d.737), and possibly to King Ataulfo, Visigothic King of Spain (d.415)
Dec 08 03, 10:09 AM
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Siskin
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Griff, I do believe you're envious of my Gorm the Old!!!
I trust the BBC site, and they also say the Danes are the oldest and the longest unbroken line in Europe.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1011774.stm
I have grave doubts whether Spain is even in the running as the monarchy was deposed in the 1930's, and only reinstated in 1975 after Franco's death.
Dec 08 03, 3:31 PM
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griffinj
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Hardly envious, I certainly can't deny the names are great (but I still like Alphoso the Slobberer, King of Castile) but they aren't an unbroken line. In our patriarcical society lines are traced through the male parent. Decent through the female line is considered a break and there are five of those (six if you count the current Queen). If you are going through the female lines, Queen Elizabeth has an older verifiable pedigree. I do think they probably are the oldest European monarchy with no interruptions.
But the question said family, and the family is Oldenbourg (or Oldenberg) and they have held out the male line for a very long time, much longer thatn the Windseors (nee Saxe-Coburg-Gotha) but Liechtenstein has them beat.
p.s. Your site cited says nothing about the line being unbroken. As the house of Oldenbourg took the throne in 1448 and the Grand Dukes of Liechtenstien didn't become soveriegn princes untill the purchase of Schellenberg and Vaduz in 6699 and 1712, they are the longest reigning single house in Europe. But that will end with the death of Queen Margrethe. And Gorm, as excellent as I'm sure he was, is most defintely not the founder of the house of Oldenbourg. That would be Egilmar, who is first mentioned in a document dated 1088.
Dec 08 03, 4:10 PM
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markklein199
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Siskin, here is a direct quote from a link provided on the web site you cited. "The direct lineage of the ancient Danish dynasty became extinct with the death of Christoffer III in 1448. Duke Christian of Oldenborg was chosen as his successor and became King of Denmark the same year, taking the name Christian I." While the current Danish monarchy may have some blood relationship to Gorm the Old, the dynastic line was broken. According to some more research I did on this (it's been a slow work day) the Grimaldis have been secure on the throne of Monaco since at least 1409 when they were formally recognized by France. That date obviously precedes the 1448 direct line of the current Danish monarchs (mmm ... danish). The Grimaldi chain has been passed down from father to son, in a direct line. In fact, the Monegasque have been frantically trying to change the law to provide for a Grimaldi succession in case the current Prince Albert dies without heirs, because as the law stands now, it would not automatically go to Prince Rainier III's daughters. I think the question is probably asking which monarchial dynasty has ruled the longest (such as House of Bourboun, House of Capet, etc.). The House of Grimaldi has been around since 1279, and have been the undisputed rulers of Monaco since 1409. QEII, for example, may be able to trace her roots back to rulers from the 800's but the House of Windsor (nee Saxe-Coburg and Gotha) has only been around since the 1800s. I can probably trace my roots back to Swyn Forkbeard at some point in the evolutionary cycle, but it doesn't exactly mean we're family. I say the answer is the Grimaldis. I rest my case.
Dec 08 03, 4:26 PM
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griffinj
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Sorry Mark, the current Prince Rainier III is a Grimaldi through his mother Princess Charlotte, his father was Peter, Count of Polignac (like Price Philip whose mother was a Mountbatten). What's more, Charlotte was a legitimized daughter of Prince Louis II and his mistress. I have no idea how this worked with the treaty Monaco has with France to which you allude.
Dec 08 03, 4:40 PM
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griffinj
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But Major your source says the same thing, "The direct lineage of the ancient Danish dynasty became extinct with the death of Christoffer III in 1448 (actually he was descended from the daughter, Catherine of Pomerania, of a daughter, Mary of Mecklenburg, of a daughter, Ingeborg, of a male descendant of Gorm). Duke Christian of Oldenborg was chosen as his successor and became King of Denmark the same year, ... He belonged to one of the collateral branches of the original dynasty (actually his mother was of Scleswig, His father's house, Oldenburg, is not descended from Gorm) and became the founder of the Royal Family of Oldenborg which reigned until 1863, when the last sovereign of that line, Frederik VII, died without issue." (The current house is Holstien-Sonderberg-Glucksberg)
And I still don't see anywhere on this page either that says anything about the oldest.
Holstien-Sonderberg-Glucksberg is a branch of Oldenburg. Like Orleans, Conde and Conte in relation to Bourbon. Here's the Oldeburg history:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11237b.htm
Major, I hope it's evident that, even if I don't agree with your answer, how much I enjoy this sort of question.
Dec 08 03, 9:21 PM
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markklein199
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I too respectfully disagree, but I love this site, where else could you have these sort of debates? As a final dying grasp of an argument which has apparently convinced no one, I take this language from the site link that major stirrer provided: Duke Christian of Oldenburg took power in 1448 and was from one of the
"collateral branches of the original dynasty." I am not sure what the criteria is for a dynatsic succession (obviously as Griffin pointed out, it apparently can be passed on through the mother) but I do know that the Grimaldi dynasty (or the House of Grimaldi) predates the one in Denmark.
Dec 09 03, 8:32 AM
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griffinj
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Christian of Oldenburg’s mother was the sister of Adolph, the last Duke of Schleswig, who was a descendant of Swen II (and I am almost certain a descendant of Gorm). There are no descendants of Gorm in the direct male line remaining. The senior line of Oldenburg was extinct in 1863 with the death of Fredrick VII, but the present house of Holstien-Sonderberg etc. is a collateral line in the male decent. The house of Oldenbourg is the oldest house ruling uninterruptedly. But that was not the question, nor the basis given for the answer. If the Queen of Denmark can claim Gorm as her direct ancestor, then the Queen of England can claim Egbert of Wessex, and he died 839.
Monaco was recognized as sovereign by the Duke of Savoy in 1489, but the king of France didn't do the same till 1512, from whence date the earliest coins of Monaco. So the Grimaldis as a ruling house are newer then the Oldenbourgs of Denmark. But their line was actually broken with the death of Prince Antoine I in 1731. The next Prince was the husband of Antoine's daughter Louise Hyppolite, Jacques de Goyon de Matignon. So the present Prince is really Rainier de Polignac de Goyon de Matignon de Monaco.
But after all this I'm still sticking with my very first statement: Henry IV, King of France and Navarre, founder of the royal house of Bourbon in 1562; descended from Louis I, Duke of Bourbon (d.1341), founder of the princely house of Bourbon; descended from Hugh Capet, founder of the royal house of France, and his descendants in the unbroken male line have been Kings of France or Spain ever since. One royal family, unbroken, rules since 987. And that was what the question asked.
That the Danish royal family is the oldest is a totally forgivable fiction perpetuated by the Danes, justifiably proud of their Queen.
Dec 09 03, 2:21 PM
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