Is the German esset character, which equates to a double "S", a letter in the German alphabet, and if so, where does it appear ordinally?

triviasoprano

Yes, ß, the German ettsett, is a letter in the German alphabet, and it appears after Z. The reason is that Z in German is pronounced like a 'ts', whereas S is pronounced like a 'z'. Sep 27 04, 2:03 PM

Flynn_17

In modern HochDeutsch, the ettsett does not appear as much, and ss has been brought in more frequently, in words such as 'isst', instead of 'ißt' (A participle of 'essen') Sep 27 04, 2:46 PM

Baloo55th

The esset occurs in the instructions for the battery charger I bought earlier this year. It doesn't replace every 'ss' and I've never fully understood the rules for it. But it still exists. The old German typefaces have gone, except for wine bottle labels and so on, with a great increase in comprehensibility for foreigners. [Sep 27 04 3:05 PM] Baloo55th writes: Just spotted something there.... In German, 's' can be pronounced as either 's' or 'z' depending on context. 'Sie' is pronounced 'zee', but 'das' is pronounced 'dass'. 'z' is virtually always 'ts'. By the way, there are essets in my 3 year old German dictionary. Sep 27 04, 2:54 PM

DaveLister

I believe the rules for using "ss" as opposed to the ettsett (sorry, can't find how to render it on my keyboard) are essentially syllabic. In other words, if the "ss" combination has a syllable split in it and is pronounced - in effect - "s s" the ettsett is not used, and in other cases it is. Having said that, it doesn't explain the "isst" (with ettsett) and "essen" (without) distinction, so maybe I've just drunk too much Loewenbraeu (with or without umlauts...) Sep 27 04, 4:47 PM

triviasoprano

Yes, Baloo, the s can be pronounced either as a z or s, depending on the position. From what I remember, the ß should be used in place of ss in Hochdeutsch whenever possible. I know that most books favor the ss because typing s twice is easier than trying to create the ß. As we all know, what should be is vastly different from what is. For example, I have a page of Lied by R. Strauss in which the composer's name is spelled with the 'ss' at the top of the page. In the song, however, the dimunitive of the same word is spelled 'Sträußlein'! Sep 27 04, 5:38 PM

TabbyTom

I would regard the esset or eszett(ß) as a ligature (representing, as others have said, the letters sz), rather than a separate letter. A German reciting the alphabet will normally go from A to Z in the same order as a Briton or an American, and will not, I think, name the eszett separately. Nor would he regard vowels with umlauts as letters in their own right. So far as I remember, the ß is used at the ends of words (Fuß, daß, Imbiß), before a final t (er läßt, sie ißt), and after long vowels but not after short ones. Thus the genitive singular and nominative plural of Maß are Maßes and Maße, because the root vowel is long; but Faß makes Fasses and Fässer, because the vowel is short. Also, as DaveLister says, the ß won’t be used where there is a syllable split (Liebesszene, Todesstunde). The name Strauß/Strauss would normally, I think, be written with ß in German. Certainly I seem to recall that that was how the name of the famous Bavarian politician Franz-Josef was spelled in the German newspapers in the 1960s. However, there may well be some degree of variation in the spelling of proper names, and perhaps some people prefer Strauss. Or, if triviasoprano’s book is published in an English-speaking country, maybe the name of Strauss is supposed to be in “English” (we normally use the double-s in German names and borrowed words), while the text of his songs is in German. The artist George Grosz had to be especially awkward, of course. Sep 27 04, 6:59 PM

bloomsby

I agree with TabbyTom. "Eszett" isn't really a letter in its own right - simply a way of representing a double s in certain positions in words and of course after long vowels. German dictionaries treat it as double s and don't, for example put it after z. A few further points: 1. In Switzerland it's common to ignore "Eszett" and use double s instead. 2. "Eszett" is a lower case letter only. If you write a word like Straße in capitals, use -SS- in Germany and -SZ- in Austria (and most remaining German-speaking islands in the former Austro-Hungarian Empire). 3. No word in German starts with "Eszett". I hope the above helps. [Sep 27 04 9:47 PM] bloomsby writes: One further point. The use of ß for double s isn't as specifically German as many think. For example, it was sometimes used in English, too, especially at the end of a word. So well into the 19th century one encounters the speling "Miß" for "Miss" in handwritten letters, etc. It was also widely used in printed English in the 18th century. Sep 27 04, 9:24 PM

mkh13

the symbol ß is used in German after long vowels and after vowel digraphs or diphthongs (ai, ei, ie, au, etc.). After short vowels us -ss-. It is pronounced like English [s]. 's' is pronounced like English [z] word initially. 's' is pronounced 'sh' if it comes before another consonant (especially 'p' or 't') the word 'Stern', meaning 'star' is pronounced [shtern]. 'z' is always pronounced [ts] like English Be_ts_y Jun 11 07, 7:50 PM

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