When and how was the border between England and Wales established?

mochyn

King OFFA of Mercia built what is known as OFFA'S Dyke to keep the ferocious Welsh from attacking the weak puny English http://www.offasdyke.demon.co.uk/dyke.htm Feb 26 05, 12:18 PM

rlaj	Thanks mochyn. Looks like that may qualify for the second longest man made boundry; behind the Great Wall. Feb 26 05, 1:54 PM

Buck540

If the English are puny why do they govern the Welsh today? : D Feb 26 05, 4:05 PM

Baloo55th

Wasn't it rather the impoverished and pugnacious Welsh attacking the rich and peaceful English? And we've given them their own Assembly now to try to keep them quiet....... Feb 26 05, 4:40 PM

Baloo55th

Nit picking time: ALL boundaries are man-made unless they are rivers or such, or mountains that are unclimbable. The Great Wall, Hadrian's Wall, the lesser known Antonine Wall and Offa's Dyke are merely boundaries elevated above ground level. (Incidentally, Harry Tuffin's have a beer called Special Offa. Well, it is brewed in the Border country.....) Feb 26 05, 4:47 PM

gmackematix

When it was built, he was an Offa you couldn't refuse. I once asked in a local pub quiz "Which landmark starts with a Dee, ends in a Wye and is about 80 miles long?" Strangely few if any got it right. Feb 26 05, 7:38 PM

ungar

If this site is to do with acuracy and fact, lets get the English out of a state of historical denial. The border between England and Wales and England and Scotland to an extent, are borders invented by the English, who are relative newcomers to these islands. The very word WALES, is an English addition copied from the celtic tribes of Wallonia in what is now Belgium. The Welsh have their own word for themselves which is " Y Cymri ". The Welsh people and the language they spoke before Roman times was well established and spoken across the whole of these islands before the Roman invasion. When the Romans pulled out, the Angles, Saxons, and Jutes, invaded and pushed the Welsh into what is now Wales, and into Cornwall, Brittany , and Southern Scotland, Hence Welsh placenames up there ( Glasgow) Glas y glo( blue coal). Incidentally, the English do not rule Wales, it was never completely conquered, but we have an act of union, which could be dispensed with, and should be perhaps? Feb 27 05, 3:05 AM

gmackematix

I think you'll find that should be "accuracy"! Doesn't the word Welsh have a root meaning foreign? Feb 27 05, 8:56 AM

ungar

Gmackematix, sorry about the spelling, but its only English after all. As for `Welsh` meaning foreign, don`t know, thats English as well. However being serious, I would like to know the roots of these language issues a little more, but don`t know where to look. Historically of course, you could argue that the borders of Wales are East Anglia, the south coast, the western sea board, and the central valley of Scotland, but at present better to leave our confrontations on the rugby field so long as the English team remains in the doldrums. Feb 28 05, 6:29 AM

Stew54

I think Gmack is right, and the derivation I have for the modern English word "Welsh" is from the Middle English 'Walische', being in turn from the Old English 'Węlisc', (which is itself from 'Wealh') meaning foreigner. The Saxons, having evicted the former population from all the parts of Britain an invader would actually want (that is to say England), created that as a new country with its own name and people. After that, those (Celtic) people who might have lived there generations previously were indeed foreigners in England (and not welcome, hence Offa's Dyke along the border). The secondary definition of "Welsh", as a verb meaning "to renege", or "to fail to honour" (an obligation) seems to me to be needlessly spiteful! Feb 28 05, 6:56 AM

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