Is it true that "public schools" in England are what is referred to as "private schools" in the United States, meaning you actually have to pay to go to "public school"?

Baloo55th

Sort of. State schools and most church schools in the UK are free. Fee paying schools, rather confusingly, include both private schools and public schools. Public schools are usually of very old origins, private schools more recent. (My old school was founded in 1620.) When they were founded, public schools were for the education of the public. They were founded by benefactors to provide a means of teaching the deserving of being taught. Not the lower end of the peasant class, not the aristocracy, but the ones who didn't have private tutors for their kids but might be reckoned to have some brains. As time went on, the lower end of the market became catered for by 'dame schools' - usually run by (older) women who charged small fees to keep themselves going. The public schools had by now become rather more exclusive. Later on, when National Schools were established, the public schools became even more exclusive, and the dame schools died out. The term public school strictly applies to a small number like Eton, Harrow and so on. (Mine was borderline!) As the middle classes got more money, but not enough to send their kids to public school, private schools came in to educate those kids of parents with upward mobile ideas, but whose kids weren't bright enough to pass the entrance exams for the public school scholarships (reduced fees or free places for brighter kids with no money - needed to offset the thick kids of some of those rich people). Our current system is based on a variety of free schools - Local Education Authority (=city or county) comprehensives, and City Academies (run by outfits making a profit). Private schools are fee-paying, and public schools are more exclusive fee-paying ones. Clear now? Feb 20 06, 5:18 AM

bloomsby

The simple answer to the main question is that what are called "public schools" in England are in fact fee-paying schools. I'd add that the distinctions (in legal and historical status) between different kinds of fee-paying schools in the UK are not well understood by the general public. Moreover, some schools that may, strictly speaking, be "private schools" are widely regarded as "public schools", for example, some very succesful schools founded in the Victorian period, such as Marlborough College. Collectively, the fee-paying schools refer to themselves as the "independent schools". Within England there is little agreement (once one gets beyond the "top twenty" schools or so) which schools are "public schools" are which are not. As for the historical aspect, from mid Tudor times till well into the nineteenth century the standard permanent English market town school for boys was the grammar school. I say "permanent" to indicate that it wasn't the private property of the Headmaster and I'd add that it had a board of governors to help ensure its continued existence. Some grammar schools managed, especially in the last third or so of 19th century, to make the leap from grammar school to "public school", such as Uppingham. Others grammar schools were drawn partly or wholly into the state system. There's an excellent book by J R de S Honey, "Tom Brown's Universe ...", Millington Books 1977. Honey focuses on the development of public schools in the Victorian period. The book is out of print, but I assume that many university libraries have copies. A postscript. Girls' schools, however prestigious, have never been called public schools. So Wycombe Abbey, Cheltenham Ladies' College and Roedean, for example, are outside the 'charmed circle'. Feb 20 06, 10:20 AM

sue943

It is my understanding that public schools are those whose head teacher is a member of the HMC, used to stand for headmasters Conference but now embraces headmistresses too. I can remember the fuss when a new headmaster for my son's school was appointed and as he wasn't a member of the HMC, the school lost its public school status until he was able to become a member. Feb 20 06, 11:14 AM

Baloo55th

You can get into trouble for embracing a headmistress... My old school is HMC, so it must be a public school, then. Ah well... (never heard of most of this lot, by the way.) http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/reference/headmasters_and_headmistresses_conference Feb 20 06, 1:19 PM

bloomsby

The use of the Headmaster's membership of the HMC as the key criterion was made by R. A. Butler in the House of Commons in 1943 or 1944 when he was President of the Board of Education. For a long time there were about 200 memebers of the HMC. It is widely regarded as very broad. I remember well how, at university, a friend of mine came to me for consolation. He'd been to one of those minor proprietary schools founded in a seaside resort in Victorian times and rather unwisely said to an Old Boy of Rugby that he'd been to a public school. He was stunned when the Old Rugbyean (spelling?) expressed blank amazement ... Of course, the defintion in terms of memebership of the HMC was extremely flattering to schools that would otherwise have had no claim to "public school" status. My former school just loved to think of itself as a "public school" as the HM was a member of the HMC, and we had to buy our uniform from Harrod's and all that stuff, but many many of us found the idea of the place as a "public school" rather funny. In all honesty, I think the best description would be an old grammar school (founded in Tudor times). John Honey is very keen indeed on his list about twenty schools. As a concession he has may have added a couple of schools. Now I really must stop boring our international audience with English quirkiness. I imagine they already think many of are as mad as hatters and as nutty as fruitcakes! Feb 20 06, 5:12 PM

lanfranco

Not at all, bloomsby. However, as fascinating as everyone's comments have been, for the sake of possibly-confused Americans, I'd like to simplify the issue a bit: State education in the U.K. = public education in the U.S. and is free. "Public schools" in the U.K. = (more or less) private secondary schools (usually boarding) in the U.S and, like their U.S. counterparts, are quite expensive. In addition, a U.K. student often enters a public school at a slightly earlier age than U.S. students enroll in such schools as Groton and Andover. One more thing: a public school student in the U.K. has often attended a private preparatory school for at least part of what in the U.S. would be called elementary and middle school education. In the U.S., however, the term "prep school" is synonomous with "private, boarding, secondary school," where students aged 14-18 are "prepared" for university studies. Feb 20 06, 5:27 PM