Does the rude two-finger gesture, known as a "Harvey Smith" in my day, really have its roots in archery?

Trooper2196

The "V Sign", commonly known as "sticking two fingers up" or "flicking the V's," is thought to have originated in the United Kingdom. It involves facing the palm inwards, while the index and middle fingers are extended vertically. This is the way that Winston Churchill initially indicated "Victory," at the beginning of the Second World War (often with a large cigar jammed between the two fingers), but he reversed the sign later in order to distinguish the "V for Victory" campaign from a gesture widely considered insulting. Popular legend holds that the sign originated with British archers in the Hundred Years War (1337 -1453). According to the legend, it was the habit of French captors to cut off the fingers of British archers when captured, thus disabling their ability to fire. It is said that mass salute evolved at the beginning of battles, showing the opposing French soldiers that they were still capable of effecting the massive damage associated with the war bow. There is, however, no record of this practice in any contemporary source, and the story must be regarded as a myth. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand_gesture#V_sign Nov 19 07, 1:54 PM

MonkeyOnALeash

There is also belief that the American Finger Language (flipping the "Bird") has its roots in Archery. " There is a popular story about English bowmen waving fingers at the French army during the Hundred Years' War, that is completely apocryphal. --- Before the Battle of Agincourt in 1415, the French, anticipating victory over the English, proposed to cut off the middle finger of all captured English soldiers. Without the middle finger it would be impossible to draw the renowned English longbow and therefore [soldiers would] be incapable of fighting in the future.--- The origin of this gesture is speculative, but is quite possibly thousands of years old. It is identified as the digitus impudicus ("impudent finger") in Ancient Roman writings and reference is made to using the finger in the Ancient Greek comedy The Clouds by Aristophanes. It was defined there as a gesture intended to insult another. The widespread usage of the finger in many cultures is likely due to the geographical influence of the Roman Empire and Greco-Roman civilization. Another possible origin of this gesture can be found in the first-century Mediterranean world, where extending the digitus impudicus was one of many methods used to divert the ever present threat of the evil eye. Another possible origin is the phallic imagery of the raised middle finger (the middle finger being the longest finger on the human hand), similar to the Italian version of the bent elbow insult. Also, there is a variation of the finger where it can be done by performing The Fangul, by sticking out the finger during the throwing motion. " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finger_(gesture) http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a980904.html Caution: http://www.myspacecomedy.com/images/funny/kid-middle-finger.jpg The "V" sign: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_sign#The_V_sign_as_an_insult Nov 19 07, 2:14 PM

darkpresence

Yes, I always find those pictures of Churchill hilarious! Conversely, I do find the digitus impudicus quite obscene, not funny at all. But can anyone tell me why the (two finger) gesture was once called a Harvey Smith? Nov 19 07, 5:19 PM

Baloo55th

Harvey Smith was a well-known show-jumper in the UK. He was a Yorkshireman from rather different social origins fron the main part of the show-jumping fraternity (including females, of course - it's a sport where there is equality of gender). In 1971, he famously gave the judges a V sign, and won his case on appeal. As I remember, he was never known to smile in the ring, even when winning. A really great horseman. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvey_Smith_(showjumper) Nov 19 07, 5:29 PM