Not a new problem it seems:|
"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They
contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers."
Usually attributed to Socrates,
Come on guys, I know those examples you've posted are annoying but it's not ALL kids.
Step forward all those who never once misbehaved in their youth; my feet are definitely stationary.
Reply #21. May 06 10, 4:34 AM
Mutchisman...............Sure we misbehaved, all children do at times............but our parents did something about it, not looked indulgently on whilst their offspring ran amok!|
Reply #22. May 06 10, 4:42 AM
Just to throw the spanner in the works here - there have been many occasions where I have been mortified by the behaviour of adults in such places. Unruly behaviour is not the sole domain of children.|
Reply #23. May 06 10, 4:48 AM
"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They|
contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers."
Thanks for the mutchisman, what a spot on up-to-date description of today’s world.
Every child behaves at sometime inappropriately that is granted and has always been so (at least in the eye of the adult) but why should this be allowed in pubs and restaurants?
“Unruly behaviour is not the sole domain of children.”
Of course not, it’s just that some children never grow up!
Reply #24. May 06 10, 4:59 AM
I agree it can be adults as well and that's were a lot of the kids get it from, butagain being a bit disloyal why is it nearly always the Brits. There is the joke about the Germans and there Towels on the sunbeds before dawn, but who from what other countries have to lay on a towel of their national flag and wear Union Jack shorts when on Holiday, no, just us Brits then. Who wants a full English breakfast when abroad and not try the local delacacies, just us Brits Again, who expects everyone to talk English when abroad and makes no effort to learn the local language, no, just us Brits AGAIN, or I am going to the wrong places?|
Reply #25. May 06 10, 6:49 AM
I am reminded of a conversation that I had with a neighbour, back in the 1990's, on the subject of children/not quite adults/youths rampaging in public places, and he said,|
"The trouble is you know, we are reaping what has been sown. Undisciplined kids from undisciplined parents".
Maybe it has always been thus, but he asserted that it was the result of the 1960's "do your own thing" attitude, and parents who were allowed to run amok as children. produced children who in turn ran amok.
I feel he had a point.........and I don't mean the mindless discipline beloved of National Service critics, but the self-discipline that creates responsible adults, something that is taught by parents who themselves were taught discipline.
Reply #26. May 06 10, 7:21 AM
It isn't only the British. It happens in Australia too.I don't know about food fights but the running around and screaming etc.Our daughter, when she was young had behaviour problems so we did not take her into restaurants, shopping centres etc.We had some one mind her so as not to disturb other people. What really annoys me is that the parents do nothing, they just sit there drinking and chatting while the kids run riot.|
Reply #27. May 06 10, 8:08 AM
I always thought this was sad. When I was about 6 and my sister was 5, people would thank us as we left the restraunt for being well behaved. If people don't teach their children manners before going into public, keep the kids at home and order out.|
Reply #28. May 06 10, 10:18 AM
I don't think it's too much to ask of parents to control their children in a public place. I realize parents need some time out once in a while, but proper behavior is just a part of socializing the kids. I'm sure we all know of a relative's kid that is the one from Hell. lol|
Reply #29. May 06 10, 12:22 PM
I don't think people mind kids, but as adults there are some places we would like to be able to go out for a normal afternoon or meal, once in a while, without loud misbehaving children.|
When it comes to misbehaving adults, there isn't a stigma to telling them to act civilized, or there is no stigma for the owners/managers to ask adults to flat out leave if they are too unruly.
Reply #30. May 06 10, 12:34 PM
I always avoided 'grown-up' type restaurants when my kids were little. To them, meals are meant to arrive on the table, be eaten and then they go and do something more interesting, not hang around for ages between courses. On family occasions I'd try and keep them amused and take them out at the first sign they might play up. I'd have been mortified if I thought they were disturbing other diners.|
As they got older, they had to learn to behave if we were out somewhere. I think sitting up to the table for a meal every evening at home helped there. I wouldn't have dreamt of taking them to a pub, except one that had a garden or a designated family room. I am in awe of people who take small children on planes, whilst at the same time thinking 'why'? My youngest was aged four the first time we flew with kids. She was very well behaved but had a morbid fascination with the toilet on the plane. At that age you can't really argue when they say they need the loo so we made many, many trips!
I think perhaps sometimes people are utterly determined that "having a baby won't change my lifestyle" which of course it does, beyond all recognition!
Reply #31. May 06 10, 2:23 PM
A café-owner in Brno (that´s a city in the Czech rep) declared his pub a "no-kidding area" (understand, an area without any kids, it´s Czenglish). Of course, mums complained and he was heard by local authorities. He defended himself that his café is meant for people who want to relax, read newspapers, drink coffee and who don´t want to be bothered by yelling kids and yelling mothers. He said that there were a lot of non-smoking cafés in the area where the mums with prams can go. Surprisingly he won. This is not a typical situation that´s why it was in the newspapers.|
Reply #32. May 06 10, 3:00 PM
Big_F #16 - of course - wish I'd thought of that! nannies are full-time parent substitutes, while the real ones are working, or golfing, or watching Jeremy Kyle. |
But it's OK because parents with nannies have Quality Time with their children. *sigh* That's ten minutes putting them to bed and tucking them up, asking them how their day was and not waiting for an answer, then going downstairs again and sinking gratefully into a gin and tonic... or a beer...
Do parents need to "teach" children good manners? Aren't they best taught by example? If everyone in the family says hallo, goodbye, please, thank you, sorry, they become second nature. You may have to ignore this sort of advice from more practised parents:
"You don't need to say please and thank you to him. He's your son - he has to do what you tell him."
"Don't make him apologise. That's cruel."
Going your own sweet way usually pays off.
When my sprog started school, about 18 years ago, the children were taught to stand up whenever an adult came into the room, even though many of the adults flapped their hands around and said it's OK, they don't need to. After a few years the rule was scrapped, and the children were expected to stop what they were doing and greet the visitor, but not to stand up. Eventually visitors came and went and most classes didn't acknowledge them, with the exception of the odd, stubborn teacher who continued the practice. That may explain why children come and go and nobody knows where they are. Oh no - hang on - adults do that too.
Student teachers regularly came for teaching practice. Once upon a time they would have greeted everyone in the room. Now they slouch into the classroom in silence, sling their bags down, and slump on a desk, awaiting instructions. They don't talk to the teacher when they leave the classroom either. If they're not there at hometime, you have to assume they've gone home, because they won't bother telling anyone they're going. They just leave as gracefully as they came in. The suggestion that they might discuss the day with the host teacher would only confuse them. They could even thank the teacher for helping with their training. I don't suppose they do, though.
The ones I've seen rarely speak to anyone unless they have to. One of them asked me, on about her second day, the best way to tell the form teacher that she didn't agree with her methods. Answers on the back of a postage stamp. :)
"having a baby won't change my lifestyle"
Sally, don't you laugh when you hear that?
Reply #33. May 06 10, 4:50 PM
When our children were much younger than they are now (both my sons are now middle-aged me, which gives me pause when I stop to think about it) we never took them to adult restaurants. It wasn't that they weren't well-behaved, it's just that I don't think it's fair to children to expect them to behave like adults!|
One of our child-raising rules was that we expected our children to behave the same way in public as they did at home at home, which means that they weren't allowed to be rude, to yell, throw things or behave badly at home or abroad.
There's a local restaurant that is very kid-friendly, with a play space for children (no, it's not McDonald's - I don't think of McDonald's as a restaurant!) and that's where we took our youngsters out for a meal. They loved it there, especially when we were able to get a table in the full-sized street car that was housed in the restaurant. When our younger son and his wife were in town for a wedding last fall, they took the whole family (not all of whom are related by blood) out for dinner at that same restaurant. I asked my son why he chose that venue and he said that it was in honour of the great times we'd had as a family eating there when he and his brother were kids. He confessed to being disappointed that there were too many of us at the family dinner last fall to fit into the street car.
As for taking kids into pubs, I'd advise against it. They may pick up some very bad examples of out-of-home behaviour from the adults there!
Reply #34. May 07 10, 1:15 AM
This may sound a bit petty, but it all started to go wrong in the Uk when a kids TV programme called "Grange Hill" started and kids copied the way children spoke to and acted up to teachers and adults in that programme. Now with all the Liberal rules about what you can and can't do makes it difficult for those who want to chastise there Children to do so and teach them how they were taught|
Reply #35. May 07 10, 1:36 AM
A lot of mainland Europe still sets store by having the extended family involved in the raising of children - often with three generation households living together and sharing the responsibility. Have, on the whole, found European children to be more polite and behave well in restaurants. We have the yummy mummy brigade in England who think their little darlings can do no wrong and screech and squeal and run around causing mayhem with just a cursary "dont do that darling" as a means of control. Observed recently, said brattish child knocking down a bicyle outside a restaurant and proceeding to jump all over it, only for parent to tell them not to do it as they might hurt themselves...|
It's not just the multi-fathered single mother broods which are badly behaved, its across all social groups.
Equally, do like children to retain some independent spirit and not be mollycoddled into being boring adults without a voice of their own.
No quick fix, just vote with your wallet and don't go to restaurants where you have had a bad experience. I do think kids shouldnt be allowed in pubs - and certainly not in the bar areas.
Perhaps there is a niche market for a kid's only restaurant chain - would be minted.
Reply #36. May 07 10, 3:49 AM
" Perhaps there is a niche market for a kid's only restaurant chain - would be minted."|
Perhaps... " Bratz "r" us " lol
Reply #37. May 07 10, 4:10 AM
I think I am going to have to stick up for the children on this on. I am on quite firm ground here because I used to be one! And I too in my childhood, like many of the posters above have had to sit in many a pub car park with a packet of Tudor crisps and a bottle of (in my case)Irn Bru. Did I like it? Not really. Did it do me any harm? Never will find out, as I only had the one childhood.|
As a 42 year old I have been in quite a few pubs and restaurants, and not once in all that time has a child ever behaved in such a way that I have felt like walking out or complaining to the parents or management. Adults on the other hand have had me shaking my head in disbelief several times. Like the time in a pub in Malta when an old Brit took umbridge over the service and started banging on about "if it wasn't for us during the war, you wouldn't even be here". This is to the nation that was awarded the George cross for valour and bravery(not a person remember, an entire Island). As a fellow brit I hung my head in shame.
Then of course you get the "did you spill my pint" brigade. I am not sure if this is a totally British thing or a world wide phenominon, what I can say with some authority though is, I have never heard a child say it, well not in anger anyway.
If a child is in a pub, do you think for a minute that it was the childs choice to be there. Can you imagine for a minute a child turning around to a parent at the offer of a trip to Alten Towers, the beach or even to the local park for a game of footy with dad and saying "Nah, lets go for a pint and and a plate of microwaved chicken nuggets"
Sure, some children can be annoying, but every adult has the potential to be equally annoying. The difference is the adults choose to go to places and the child is just dragged along to fit in with the adults plans.
Reply #38. May 07 10, 5:34 AM
Totally agree with you that small children would probably choose not to be in such an environment in the first place, the same way they would probably choose not to get dragged around a supermarket. Only difference is that a supermarket shop has to be done and one chooses to go into a pub or restaurant in most cases. Also agree that “Brits” aboard can be very obnoxious and most people have an anecdote or two to tell, but the management still has the right to refuse service and quite rightly too.|
Point is whether children should generally be allowed “at all” admission regardless of their ability to behave?
Reply #39. May 07 10, 5:56 AM
My father would not bring to a resturant until we were old enough to beave. The first time he took us we were told if we misbehaved it would be the last time he took us. Since we didn,t want to stay home we behaved. If a child isn't old enough to behave stay home or arrange a sitter. Same thing goes for the movies. I've had manyy a movie ruined because parents insisted on bringing a 2 yr old to a movie that could not possibly interest them and so they act up. As far as movies go most adults are no better. They sit around and talk like they are sitting in their living room. I paid my money to hear the dialogue not your banal conversation|
Reply #40. May 07 10, 6:15 AM
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