| houston1127
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The only way to sustain the necessary ratio of young payers to older recievers is to allow increased immigration. But this, combined with lowered native birthrates, will lead to a demographic shift that will leave Italians the minority in their own country. Looks like Pat Buchanan was right!
Reply #1. Nov 09 11, 1:57 PM
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Cymruambyth 
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Now there's a horrible thought (Pat Buchanan being right, I mean).
:)
Reply #2. Dec 01 11, 2:25 AM
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satguru
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I'm sure compared to 90% of Africa they're still doing relatively well, although now their complete cabinet is unelected they may well go downhill now their people appear to have no say whatsoever in how they are ruled. I accept many people think dictators can do a better job than many corrupt politicians, but the point is you do have a chance to get rid of the politicians every few years if they turn nasty, not so for dictators.
As for their economy, all EU countries are fireproof. Not only can Germany bail them all out (they couldn't take over Europe by military means so now doing it gradually by political) they've now even got the US and other worldwide outside banks to pitch in. So long as the rest of the world also support the EU their individual states have a permanent safety net. It does however create a form of communism as all the rich countries are now sharing their wealth with the poor, with little or no chance of repayment. The entry level for the Euro was a maximum 60% of national debt, Italy and others in and out of the Euro are over 100%. With no chance to raise or lower interest rates to affect local demand they will be just coping but not allowed to improve a lot either as no longer in charge of their economy.
It reminds me of people with severe depression. Some can remove most of it with tablets, but report not being happy either as it basically cuts all their emotions. Countries like Italy will now not be financially depressed but the same measures that stop it will stop them being rich as well. If they want to remain as feudal serfs of Germany and France without any say in their own future or present I can't really feel a lot of sympathy for them, or Greece who were denied the chance to decide by their president as his parting gift.
Reply #3. Dec 02 11, 6:49 PM
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boxjaw
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Italy is now a serfdom. Germany won't take over Europe militarily but politically. How will Great Britain save themselves from this powerhouse? Gads! Is it 1938 all over again.? Remember, France is next. "Wir fahren gegen England" Not happening. The time of the national dictator in Europe is over. There are no more Mussolinis, Hitlers, Metaxas', Francos. The dictator is economics. Banks rule. Satguru, even England has a say in what's going on with those poor southern european (as well as one to the west of the Irish Sea) countries. Everyone is involved. Everyone.
Reply #4. Dec 03 11, 12:06 PM
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satguru
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Involved means having a say. How many British have a say what happens in the EU? Only the politicians and their lobbyists. The rest of us are now serfs, and the takeover of our rights has to be so slow and gradual people can't be bothered to react to it. Unless something is an immediate and swift threat or change most people don't notice. That's the lessons they learnt the last times, now they have endless patience and the strengthening of the EU treaty very soon is the next step to an eventual Europewide dictatorship. It's precisely because no one takes it seriously it's allowed to happen.
Reply #5. Dec 03 11, 6:49 PM
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REDVIKING57
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"How many British have a say what happens in the EU"? All of those entitled to vote - and can be bothered. Don't think dictatorships bother with elections.
Reply #6. Dec 04 11, 11:41 AM
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| lesley153
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And how many British have a voice that the dictators actually bother listening to?
Reply #7. Dec 04 11, 12:32 PM
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REDVIKING57
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Sometimes,electorates get the representation that they deserve. In 1999,only 24% of eligible voters bothered to get off their backsides. This rose to a massive 34% in 2009. Democracy In Action?
BTW - Isn't this thread about Italy? Not Britain and the EU? Seem to remember another thread on that subject........
Reply #8. Dec 04 11, 12:57 PM
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satguru
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Just to answer the question and back to Italy. The EU commission make the majority of EU laws. Individual states negotiate in advance and can trade for exemptions, but all this is not done under any form of parliamentary democracy, as we vote for British policies only. As all three major parties support EU membership then we have no say in the matter as yet and is no mechanism I know of in place to do so besides voting UKIP which most people do not as they are used to voting for parties who already have MPs. That sort of attitude is a circular and self defeating one, as adapting to new circumstances has never been the British forte.
Reply #9. Dec 05 11, 11:51 AM
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REDVIKING57
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I would disagree with the previous post on so many levels,but it has nothing to do with Italy - or Italy becoming a Dictatorship.
To suggest Italy,or Greece for that matter,is now in the hands of dictators is just alarmist,and premature, to say the least. As I see it,the previous,ELECTED Government of Italy decided that their country was facing a National crisis,and the best way forward was a 'Government of National Unity',free from Party Politics. And free from the endless scandals,and international ridicule, of the elected Prime Minister.
BTW - Was Britain governed by a dictatorship from May,1940 to July,1945? That government was never elected. Indeed, much of that Cabinet was never elected by anyone - they were 'appointed'.
Reply #10. Dec 05 11, 12:45 PM
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| lesley153
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The wartime coalition was before my time (too!) but I believe that the government consisted of normal politicians, elected by the usual methods, who made their own decision to set aside party politics for the greater good, at least while the war lasted. They weren't sent in by a collection of other countries to take over the indigenous incumbents.
Reply #11. Dec 05 11, 5:32 PM
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| Greatguggly
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Basically, the same things you all have described are happening in the US too, in a slightly different way,and by design. The leftists in our government have openly demonstrated through their policies and comments that their goal is to hold as many Americans beholdent to the government as possible. I'm hearing granny Pelosi right now on the news whining that if the govt doesn't step in now, Americans won't be able to afford their Christmas dinner. That's exactly what she said. No thanks, Nancy. I can handle it on my own. You're not stealing my liberty. Go back home and bake some muffins for your grandkids.
Reply #12. Dec 09 11, 6:38 PM
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satguru
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Red, show me a time when anyone led Britain without having first either been elected or from the lords? The Italian example would be the equivalent of the EU appointing Neil Kinnock as prime minister, with a cabinet comprising Nick Leeson (banking experience, as in Italian cabinet), a few top civil servants (for EU commissioners are the top civil servants), maybe a member of the royal family for local tradition (repealing an act hundreds of years old in the process) and may as well throw in an archbishop as well.
I'd compare it more with Franco's Spain but the actual similarity between Mussolini's open welcome to replace elected leaders in Italy is so close it's chilling. Thank goodness Cameron gave us a relief yesterday, albeit uncertain in its duration. Rome may now well burn as much metaphorically as it ever did literally in Roman times. No one cried when the Berlin wall came down besides a few soviet leaders, why would anyone want something similar on the western border?
Reply #13. Dec 09 11, 8:09 PM
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| lesley153
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Rick, that was sexist and ageist. *wags reproving finger* Next time you're in Bedford, I may buy you a beer to drink and one to pour over your head. Friends? :)
Reply #14. Dec 09 11, 8:17 PM
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| s-m-w
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David, that’s like asking to have top civil servants elected, you are now just re-arranging words to fit an argument.
You may become even more isolated than the U.K if you think what has happened in Europe yesterday is good for this country (but that’s for another thread).And now we really are an island!
As for “No one cried when the Berlin wall came down besides a few soviet leaders,” WOW, how wrong can you be... I was there; immersed in the situation, believe me when I write that on that day many more people had feelings of apprehension and uncertainty than the world press led people to believe! The feeling of euphoria quickly changed to a worrying hangover with immense consequences which were founded, It caused renewed division for many years in a “united! Germany. (Again that is another thread).
Reply #15. Dec 10 11, 4:24 AM
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| Greatguggly
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Lesley, I apologize. My intention was to drag Nancy Pelosi through the mud (which she most certainly deserves) not women or the elderly. First of all I should have called her Nanny, not Granny, since she has spent her political career helping to turn the US into a nanny state. At least I didn't call her "toots" or "cupcake"! LOL jk. Though it would be hard to tell from what I said, I have immense respect for the elderly and I don't think enough people do. Even if they haven't had the most glorious or even succesful lives, I understand that it isn't easy to keep yourself alive that long in this crazy world. I actually just took a second job driving patients, probably mostly elderly, to doctor's appointments, dialysis centers etc.. I'm starting next week and I'm looking forward to it. Some of the drives will be hours long and it'll be a pleasure and an enrichment in my life if I get the chance to hear what some of these people have experienced in theirs. Again, I'm sorry for the flip comments. I just wanted to put some pizzazz(?) in my rant against Nanny. Which I should have realized wasn't necessary. All you have to do is listen to her speak to see what a fool she is. And it's certainly not just her, or just women, or just older folks in our government. Obama, Harry Reid, Barney Frank, the list is long...those aren't women and me no likey them either.
Reply #16. Dec 10 11, 8:11 AM
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REDVIKING57
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"Arrivederci Roma"? David,isn't this just a 'Trojan Horse' thread? So you can post (NOT debate) your political views,and propagate your anti-Europe ranting from FB? As has been pointed out,there is another,more appropriate,thread for that - "Britain and the EU".
As to 'rearranging words to fit an argument',I would be grateful if you didn't twist my posts. That's not nice.If you require clarification on any of them,please just ask.
"Show me a time when anyone led Britain without first being elected or from the House of Lords". Are you serious? Firstly,the Members of The House Of Lords are not ELECTED. They are either Hereditary Peers,Political Appointees - the Lords Temporal - or senior members or The Church of England (NOT Scotland,Wales or Northern Ireland,or Catholics,Jews,Muslims,Hindus,etc.)- the Lords Spiritual. I cited Churchill's Cabinet from 10th.May,1940,for two reasons: Firstly,Churchill himself was not elected as Prime Minister. In fact,he was 'Appointed' by King George VI following a 'vote of no confidence'. Although he was an elected MP,and cabinet member at the time,nobody in Britain voted for him as PM. Secondly,many members of the War Cabinet were indeed from the House of Lords - and therefore unelected. I asked the question "Was Britain governed by a Dictatorship in 1940?" in response to one of your posts - not because I thought that that Government was illegitimate. I hope that clears up anything that was not clear.
Reply #17. Dec 10 11, 9:12 AM
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satguru
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It could only have been a trojan thread if I'd posted it myself. This is about the decline of Italy and as such mentioning the fact that the Italian government are not constitutional lords, elected commoners or even military dictators. They are EU bureacrats, civil servants, part of the separation of powers into legislative, executive and judiciary. This is to stop abuse of power and when two become one that is the end of democracy, wherever it takes place. And now it has once again happened in Italy, who, through no fault of mine, created modern Fascism when Mussolini took over.
I'm only the messenger here, the lords are constitutional and although unelected at least only survive as politicians in government posts till the next election, and are party members or independents. If you can tell me which party/s the Italian cabinet is from and when they will hold their next election I will reconsider. I may have not been in Germany around the early 90s but studied constitutional and EU law and when you have learnt how long it took European countries to take up democracy and the constant threats to it, recently or in medieval times, this new development sure scares the bejasus out of me. They have gone back a number of steps to a constitution I certainly never expected to see back in Europe after the war and it has happened.
Reply #18. Dec 10 11, 9:27 AM
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REDVIKING57
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I give up.
"They are EU bureaucrats"? They are Italian! And 'appointed' (or rubber-stamped) by the Italian President in a time of what the ITALIANS consider a time of National Emergency.
Reply #19. Dec 10 11, 10:09 AM
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| s-m-w
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David, you may well only be the messenger, but your messages are a little off pace.
Reply #20. Dec 10 11, 10:17 AM
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