232 Comments:

• Hi Jo. Interesting subject,and one i think of and question all the time. My thoughts as to the soul,i feel is our energy our life force. When we die that energy stays here for a time until we are ready to let go and move on to another realm. Whether it be Heaven,i still have my doubts on that,but our love and energy we had when alive,i feel lives on through others ie,loved ones who hold us in their hearts and we go on living through them,they keep us alive.
  
  As for why people who are ready to move on, see loved ones coming for them. I feel they know that their time is near and the hope of meeting up with loved ones who have passed on,helps them to accept their own death,to make it easier.
  
  The relevance of white/bright lights i think,is brain waves, scientific. the human organs all run by the brain, and at such a time as when death is close,i think our organs as they close down send shock waves to the brain,hence the bright lights.
  
  Interesting blog,and one subject that we all question at some point. but will we ever have the true answer? Though it's fun to hear different theories.
  
  ELVIRA1

  By ELVIRA1, May 25 07 8:59 AM




• 1. We all may have beliefs but no one really knows for sure until they die.
  
  2. My mother always said it was breath because the breathe leaves the body when we die. This made little sense to me. I see the soul as it was in "Ghost".
  
  3. Yes the do and the only reasonable explanation I have heard is that they come as guides.
  
  4. Perhaps. The real stickler here is people meet Jesus and sometimes Mohammed depending on their religion. Scientist say this is what happens when the brain is starved for oxygen.
  
  Yes I do believe in God. I prefer Christianity over other religions. I do go to Church and follow the ten commandments as much as I am able to do so and ask forgiveness when I don't. Many people in church say they know but to be honest I only have hope. I feel like there is only one train leaving for Heaven and I want to be on it.

  By williewant, May 25 07 9:40 AM




• Hi Jo,
  When i was younger i dallied with religion in many forms, from Methodist to Jehovah's Witnesses. Each and every one in their own way trtied to brain wash me into beleiving that "They" were right. I took some time to actually study the bible myself and came to the conclusion that no religion is right. I beleive that when a person dies that is it no afterlife, no heaven or hell just nothing.
  If heaven or hell did exist then why have none of our loved ones that have gone before us come back to either warn us to turn a different path or to keep on the path we're on respectively.
  I am not scared of death because i know that when the light goes out that's it.
  

  By weejit, May 25 07 9:46 AM




• Another question to ponder over is. Why are we here,what is the reason,if there is one,for our exsistence? In the great big plan of things the question is Why? Hmmmm.

  By ELVIRA1, May 25 07 1:19 PM




• Hiya Jojo,
  
  Loved reading this, and it certainly raises many issues that I think we all ponder at different stages in our lives.
  I wouldnt say that I was a particularly religious person, but I do hold certain beliefs.
  I believe that when we die our souls live on in the loved ones we leave behind. I think the people who come for us in our last moments are there to guide us and waylay our fears of what is to come. I do believe in heaven, sometimes I think this is the hell part here on earth as our resolves and strengths are tested and pushed everyday. I would hate to think that after we died that it was the end, or else why are we supposed to strive to be better people, Surely there must be something better to come afterwards.
  I dont know if you will make any sense out of what Im saying, wow, not even sure I understand it myself. LOL
  
  Definitely a fascinating subject though girlie that raises many issues on as many levels.
  
  Els

  By ellie73, May 25 07 2:27 PM




• Hi: great blog but hard to answer without offending so many. If you believe in a god then you got to believe in heaven/hell, as why would of god the victor in the battle with Lucifer for heaven not only allow him to live but gave him his own realm. I think people put too much importance into religion and their gods instead of living according to the golden rule "do unto others...."If we lived according then our concern for what happens later would be eased. To me the light people reported seeing is just a big movie of your life so that when and if you do meet a maker you cannot say you don't remember. For christians I think a bigger problem arises, in the ten commandments god said to have no god before me and Jesus never stopped following the laws of Moses, which christianity has. I think the father might take objection to the son being honored before him. And lets face the facts when chrisitans refer to god they mean son. Otherwise they be in temple and obeying not only the ten commandments but the hundred plus others Moses was given. cip

  By desertcat, May 25 07 3:19 PM




• I actually have one of these experiences to share. My aunt was about the closest person to me in my life because she raised me as my nanny. When I was 17 and she was 65, she got a high fever and it wouldn't break. I was sitting with her in her little house late one night and she was out of her head with the fever. She would tell me to turn on the light really cross (normally she was a sweetheart who would never yell at me) then a few minutes later thell me to turn it off in an angry tone. This went on about three cycles and I knew she was out of it. Then one time when the light was off she was quiet for a long time. Sudennly she bolted up and said urgently, turn on the light. She looked at me with tears in her eyes and said excitedly, I saw him, I saw Him! I said who Margie? She said, Jesus! She said she was walking in the darkness and was scared and then she saw a light and walked toward it and saw Jesus. She said she was frightened at first but he smiled at her and she ran to him. But he told her she must go back and tell her Chrissy that he was real! she looked very worried and said, you don't believe me! I tried to reassure her I did (I had just witnessed her transformation and I absolutely believed her), bewsides I knew how crazed she had been with the fever and now she was completely sober and full of emotion and faith. She went into the hospital and they couldn't find anything wrong but she kept slipping away. Finally, I got the call at work about a week later and my sister through her tears said I needed to come quickly, they didn't think Aunt Margie was going to make it through the day. I got there and my whole family was in the lobby gathered around her wheelchair. My sister came over to me crying and said we've been here for an hour but she doesn't know who we are! She led me to her and I bent over and gave her a hug. As I leaned back, I saw that her eyes were cloudy. Suddenly, her eyes cleared up and she looked straight into mine and said excitedly, I know you - your my Chrissy! don't forget, Jesus is real! Jesus is real! She died that night. Now some other time if you ask me, I'll tell you about the time I saw Jesus and held hands with him.

  By Hoshin, May 25 07 7:10 PM




• Chris,what a fasinating story. I would be interested to hear about the time you held hands with Jesus,for sure.

  By ELVIRA1, May 26 07 4:30 AM




• MY death waits to allow my friends a few good times before the end so lets drink to that and the passing times but whatever lies behind the door there is nothing much to do angel or devil I dont care for in front of that door there is you.

  By bowie12, May 26 07 8:06 AM




• This is a nicely put together blog with an interesting topic.
  
  Personally I believe there is life after death. Not as we know it now, but perhaps something peaceful and restful with nothing but joy and harmony. Imagine, no prejudice, no wars, no hate, no anger, no jealousy. Anyhow, that goes off topic.
  
  I strongly believe in visitation by angels, spirits, call it what you will. I have found evidence on many occasions and feel quite calm and at peace when these things happen. I have seen the orbs, the lights, the rods, heard the sounds. I have watched my animals, who have the ability to hear and see far more than I do.
  
  For me there is a God and death is not anything I fear, though I do hope my passing is not with pain and suffering.
  
  I have had encounters with our Blessed Virgin Mary. Not in a visual sense, but in a spiritual sense where when prayed to, she responded immediately and made things right, for the situation at hand at the time. I will never forget feeling Her presence in the room, knowing the calm that flooded and drowned the sorrow and turned it into peace.
  
  I would think that the dieing speak to the already passed, because they sense the presence of those spirits, who have come to lead them to Christ's banquet. Perhaps they hear who they have longed to hear every moment since that loved one had died before them.
  
  We have souls. Of course we do, some people call it a conscience and try to connect science to our existence. Science does not create, it manufactures. The hand of God created us, gave us our soul and the choices to follow His will and guidance.
  
  Have you noticed how believers and non-believers, when in times of trouble, always call to God? Inside the depths of their souls they KNOW God exists, no matter how much they try to deny it.
  
  Have you noticed how people try to blame God for their woes? When that is all the work of the anti-christ, trying to collect souls by fooling people into blaming God?
  
  I have strong beliefs and faith!
  
  Death is but a doorway to the sanctuary our Lord has waiting for us.
  
  Giselle

  By funnytrivianna, May 26 07 3:51 PM




• Hey,bowie12......WHAT???

  By bassman68, May 26 07 5:34 PM




• I am enjoying everybody's comments. I will end up telling about the time I saw Jesus and some wild stuff that has happened since then, but want to tell a few stories on the way since that's the way it happened. This is how I got sent out. All my life I had gone to a denominational church as my family had for generations. One day I was sitting up in the balconey and the preacher was on Isaiah 6 which is about the vision the prophet Isaiah had where he was caught up to the throne of God and God said, "Whom shall I send" and Isaiah answered, "I will go." When the preacher read that, I felt a wave of emotion come over my heart. As I sat there, I said in my heart, "Lord, I have never really gone for you" and I felt deep regret as I knew I was not fully committed to obeying what I knew was true. I said I would go if he would send me. Now I had asked him to be my personal king when I was eleven and had had some relationship with Him before but sporatically. This time there was a deep sense of His presence with me and I knew I could have more truth, more wisdom, more love, more power if I allowed him to send me. Three things I remember thinking as I left. One was the preaching had been specifically directed by God to wake me up. Two, that I had repented and it had been heard and accepted and I was being sent. And, three, that I needed to read the Bible. Like most, I had read parts but never the whole thing. How many talk with authority about what they think it means or how it's wrong and yet they have never read all of it? If you want to go on a spiritual quest, sit down for 15 minutes a day and start at the begining and read the book through. After you finish, make up your own mind whether God wrote it without letting anyone else persuade you. After all, the issue is too important and the book is not that big. That day I started reading it in order, not skipping any parts, with a thirsty attitude. It took me about nine months to go cover to cover and I had the feeling like it was being opened up to me the whole time. A messianic hebraic belief is that the bible is the Bread of the Face (paniel) nd whenever you read it you are sitting in front of God's face to eat the bread in his tabernacle. There is a saying. To a fool, the bible is just another book. To a wise man, the bible is a good book. To a religious man, the bible is a law book. But to a Christian, the bible is a love book. Because I set myself with fierce determination to receive truth, I got changed during the process. The more I read, the more I fell in love with the character of Jesus and his father who sent him on behalf of everyone whom he calls. When I finished, I immediately wanted a water baptism. Not because someone told me I needed too but because He said to do it in the bible. That's enough for now but I would like to leave with a question, who else has read the bible through in order, cover to cover? Amazing how rare that is....

  By Hoshin, May 26 07 6:36 PM




• my official, honest answer:
  i don't know.
  it's really the only honest answer i know of.
  my unofficial, personal answer:
  yes, we survive the death of our bodies.
  i have had very real out of the body experiences, experiences that were not dreams, and were not hallucinations, and i can say with some certainty that we each have a spirit that is separate from our bodies.
  the whole thing seemed very...
  electrical. an electrical humming was ever present.
  i find it odd that our dead bodies can be brought back to life by a jolt of electricity.
  lately i think of my "self" as a drop of water, coming from and existing separately of a vast ocean, but soon returning to it, becoming part of the whole, again.
  i suppose i'm a taoist at heart.
  i'd like to think that there is a point to all this, but i can't prove it. no one can.
  it's a matter of faith.
  what do you belive?
  what you believe is what you see.
  not the other way around.
  what is, is, what isn't, isn't.
  i truly applaud your question,
  it's the only one worth asking on this earth.
  but, to know the answer, one must
  give up all hope of sharing the answer with the rest of us.
  and, by then, will it really matter?
  my guess is not.
  otherwise, we'd know.

  By pyromid, May 27 07 7:02 AM




• Hey bassman68, what you mean by what?
  do you mean WHAT is the meaning of life, well I dont know, or is is it
  WHAT is brown and sits on a piano stool
  well do I know the answer to that it's beethovens last movement

  By bowie12, May 27 07 7:41 AM




• This is a truly fascinating topic,you have really got us all thinking jo and analysing things. The responses have been thought provoking for sure.
  
  I don't say i believe in a Heaven,though i'm not certain that there isn't one either. I do think there is "Something" other than the here and now and i also believe there is an afterlife,but can't really explain what it is that happens. I have seen,felt,heard things and had a "For want of a better word" Visitation if you like,in the form of a bright light,once when i was going through a bad time.
  
  I respect peoples views on their faith in religion. I have my own faith,while i don't necessarily believe that there is a god as such,i do believe that something or someone guides us through our lives,whether they be Spirit guides,loved ones who have passed over or angels,who i firmly believe in,who's to say. I think we all need to have a belief in something.

  By ELVIRA1, May 27 07 8:26 AM




• With such a subject as this, it is virtually impossible not to offend anyone at all; particilarly the religious among you. Let me start by saying it is not my aim to offend any of you at all. My aim is to do no such thing.What I ask, though, is that I am afforded the same courtesy that each and every one of you desires: the courtesy of the right to believe what i believe.
  
  Man is unique in the animal world: We are the only living creatures, as far as we know, who have the capacity to comtemplate our own deaths..we are the only living things on our world that KNOW that one day we will cease to exist, as we undertand "exist" to be.
  
  I adamantly assert that the first thing we must do is appreciate what an enormous stress this must be upon the psyche of a living being---after all, is not the chief objective of any living thing that of survival?
  
  If we first start from this premise: the premise that dying as a finality would be psychologically unacceptable to a living being that, above all else, WANTS to live, then there should be no wonder that the myriad myths, stories,and outright fairy tales concerning our continued existence,"after death, the undiscover'd country from whose bourne no traveller returns.." as Shakespeare put it, have been given into our collective ethos?
  
  Be advised...my beliefs about what will happen after death are much more scientific that religious. It is not my intent to debate ANYONE AT ALL on the merit or lack thereof of any religion, and I will firmly resist being engaged in such debate. I only wish to inject my point of view into this excellent topic, on this excellent blog.
  
  Because my view is so scientific, I think that the best way to present it would be to serialize it..so as to avoid excessive length becoming an inherent characteristic of my posts.
  
  Because i am keenly are of how long this introductory post is (and please understand that i

  By bassman68, May 27 07 11:16 PM




• have no interest in being either lengthy ot pedantic) let me start by stating one of Newton's laws of thermodynamics:
  
  The total energy of the universe is always conserved. Neither matter nor energy can ever be created or destroyed, it can only change form.
  
  Until next time, I will anticipate reading everybodies further posts. This is what it's all about, isnt it? Lively discussion on relevent subjects..I love it! Ha ha---laughing...softly.

  By bassman68, May 27 07 11:28 PM




• I find this very interesting. What I believe is that when you die, you simply go to heaven IF you are a Christian (born again through Christ). It has nothing to do with your good deeds, but your good deeds will be rewarded in heaven. And God has "toured" people in hell, and people report hearing their friends saying: "Don't come hear, it's terrible!"
  
  
  But, if you're not a Christian, no matter how good of a person you are, you will end up in hell. Your degree of hell is determined by your life on earth. Or say, if you continually turned away from God and said you wanted nothing with him, your degree of hell may be higher. But if you have never heard about Christ (which should never happen), it may be a bit lower. And all people who do not have the mental ability and understanding to understand Christ go to heaven, specifically referring to babies and mentally retarded people.
  
  
  That's my two cents, agree with it or not.

  By 24and48fan, May 28 07 5:42 AM




• I was raised in the Catholic faith,always went to church each Sunday and every holy day,made my holy communion and read my catechism on a regular basis. As i got older, i listened and watched,not only people from my own faith but from other religions too. I began to question the Catholic religion and others and wondered which was the truth,which was right or indeed wrong. As time went on i decided that there is no right or wrong religion,we all believe what we believe and our belief is what we are comfortable with.
  
  However, I am also open to other beliefs that are not necessarily to do with religion,but on a scientific level and i find bassmans response very interesting and will look forward to hearing more on his view.

  By ELVIRA1, May 28 07 7:41 AM




• I like to know how many of the Christians out there work daily with AID victims, give a good portion of their wealth to poor, do not turn away from the street person, cry for the loss of a terrorist, hang around with or date the nerdy guy or girl with pimples and not so nice clothes, work the soup kitchens, befriend a prostitute or a mass murderer, accept mixed relationships between people of color, refuse to go to war to kill a brother in another land? From all I am told and read Jesus would of. Would Jesus given us the Inquisition, the Crusades, teach hatred of other people and religions? Christian preachers do and have millions of followers. I read almost all the bible and do not except it as the word of god but the stories made up by the writers to explain things that occurred in that time. Life is a crap shoot you either win or lose. To say the only those who accept Jesus will be saved is as ignorant as saying the sky is falling. the Chicken Little's of this world and past have done enough damage spreading and enforcing their beliefs. All life is sacred and should be cared for as if it was your own. Read the history of religions prior to Christianity and you will see that the bible contains stories written hundreds of years before the old or new testaments were. And if they were the word of god why did he give us two different versions of creation in genesis? Why is David considered such a great king when he had the husband of the women he lusted after sent off to be killed. Marx was right in that religion is the opium of the masses. Guess I will see some of you in hell for my beliefs.

  By desertcat, May 28 07 8:16 AM




• I read this,and liked it.
  
  "Perhaps our eyes are merely blank film which is taken from us after our deaths to be developed elsewhere and screened as our life story in some infernal cinema or dispatched as microfilm into the sidereal world"

  By ELVIRA1, May 28 07 8:49 AM




• My mother was hospitalized with leukemia. She was 64 and I was 34. I was the only one of the four kids that lived in town with her since all my siblings had moved many years before. One day I answered the phone and it was the hospital. The nurse was crying as she told me my mom had died suddenly and they weren't sure why. It was a brand new hospital with few patients and I had met the nurses. They were very new and very personally involved with my mom. This precious young woman's heart was broken for my mom and me. I was stunned, standing there on the phone in the house I grew up in. As a son, you always wonder what it would be like to get news of your mother's death, especially to get it unexpectedly. She was very strong and nowhere near death but it turned out that she had an allergic reaction that sent her into shock when no one was nearby and she died in seconds. As I stood there incredulous, the reality beginning to sink in, I physically felt a hand on my shoulder and a warmth like warm water flowed over my heart. I turned around to see who was there but there was no one. Instead of the surprise and pain, the warmth brought peace and love. I knew my mom was with Jesus, not as a thought I was concentrating on but from a knowledge and understanding in my heart that my mind caught on to. I was being comforted from the spiritual world and it set me immediately in a position of strength. I found myself comforting the sweet nurses through the phone conversation and the trip to the hospital to see mom and handle all the details. I will never forget that experience because the events were so powerful and stark: the sudden news of my dear mom's death (we were sooo close and one thing she always gave was strong and pure love and compassion), the physical touch of a hand on my shoulder when no one was there - the flood of warmth that spread from the touch across my heart which I could feel physically and spiritually - the peace and comfort of KNOWING where my mom was and that I would/will see her again - seeing my mom's body all blue in the hospital bed - sharing comfort with the nursing staff who were heavily traumatized and who obviously loved my mom. The Book of Thessalonians says to christians that we should not grieve for those who have died like the rest of men who have no hope, for the Lord himself will descend with a shout and he will bring back with him those who have died in him and the dead in Christ shall rise. Now, I guess this is not written for everybody, but I can tell you it was written for me. Death did not have any victory over my mom or my family or me that day. It's sting was taken away by the one that rose from the dead and the promise of the resurrection. If you don't believe in these things, I don't blame you. A man can only receive that which is given him from heaven. If I was to talk you into believing, then someone else could talk you out of it. But the scriptures say in several places in the Book of Acts when the gospel was preached, all who were appointed to eternal life believed. Maybe, you don't believe because you are not appointed to eternal life. Regardless, I am not trying to preach or condemn.

  By Hoshin, May 28 07 10:39 AM




• Hi Jo
  
  Thanks for the invite to your blog (btw, you're really pretty!)
  
  I've often pondered if there is life after death.
  
  I would like to think that when we pass on we will get to meet our loved ones in another, more better life.
  
  I just can't imagine that when we pass on that is it, surely not?
  
  I also wouldn't like to believe that just because you don't practise Christianity, and don't go to Church, you'll be condemned to purgatory.
  
  If you go about your daily life not hurting anyone, then if there is a god he will see that and hopefully send you on to that greater plane.
  
  Tina xx

  By triggerhappy, May 28 07 11:39 AM




• Hi Jo. I don't think thoughts on near-death experiences or the afterlife have to be tied to religion in any way. It's almost humorous to hear someone say that all non-Christians will go to hell. Everyone has a different perception of hell anyway. Don't most religions have the same goal? That is, to lead a good life and reach spiritual peace? Religion has been in my family for generations, it's just non-Christian.
  
  I have opinions on life after death, but they aren't based on anything religious. Most of the time I look toward science to explain things. But somehow the idea of reincarnation just seems to make sense to me. So many things in nature are cyclical, so why can't our souls be?
  
  Christopher, thanks for sharing your personal experiences. I, too, found them fascinating. I have not read the Bible, but I am inspired to do so one day. I've also got The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying sitting on my shelf that has never been read either. Looks like I've got a lot of reading to do :-)
  
  
  

  By Squisher, May 28 07 3:32 PM




• Hello all my los buddies. I'm not a very religious person and i don't spend a lot of time thinking about the afterlife, i find this life challenging enough.Great to see you all using your brains and not wasting them on TRIVIA lol.By the way bowie loved the joke' important to keep a sense of humour.vally 50

  By vally50, May 29 07 3:50 AM




• When i was 28 weeks pregnant with my second child, I fell ill and couldnt breathe good, my sister came to visit me, took one look at me and got me straight to hospital. After tests determined that the baby was still ok, they ran lots of tests on me. It turned out I had a severe case of pneumonia. My husband had to sign all sorts of forms, they wanted his consent to save my daughter because they thought i wasnt going to survive the night. I didnt know anything about this at the time because i was so ill. That night the doctors and my husband all thought i was hallucinating, i was told afterwards that i kept sitting up and my breathing would return to normal for a few seconds at a time, and during which i would shake my head and kept shielding my eyes from what they said was a bright light.
  The doctors told me the next day that I was only four hours away from death, but by the morning i seemed to take the direction of recovery. I have no recollections even now if i was hallucinating or if there was some higher force telling me that it wasnt my time, all i know is whatever happened that night, I survived. I dont need any explanation or confirmation that a force greater than us exists, and i guess none of us will know truly until our time comes to pass, i never have been a particularly religious person, and i dont think i ever will be, but i do believe in God.
  

  By ellie73, May 29 07 7:29 AM




• Wow ellie,sure glad you came through it! Someone or something was certainly watching over you that day. Lets hope they continue to do so. xx

  By ELVIRA1, May 29 07 8:48 AM




• Hi Jo.
  
  This is a really deep and interesting question. I was raised Catholic, was away from the Church for a while, then for a while was back into it heavily, and yes, Hoshin, I did read the Bible cover to cover. In the last few years, due to work schedules, etc., I haven't been going to Church.
  Anyway, I believe in God, and I believe in Heaven or at least a better place. But I also believe that there are earthbound ghosts and spirits (often of loved ones) that come back to visit. I do ongoing research in that area, and have seen orbs, apparitions, etc., and have captured them on video tape and digital camera, and have captured hundreds of their voices on tape recordings. I guess I don't have any definitive answers or opinions, but I know they can still be with us afterwards, at least sometimes.

  By spiritseeker, May 29 07 9:43 AM




• Right on spiritseeker! I am always one who is interested in the afterlife, of which I full heartedly believe exists. This cannot be all there is, otherwise, there is no need to exist.
  
  To have visits and encounters is wonderful, and I have experienced such. It is very warm. I have not, personally experienced a Guardian Angel visit, but my daughter has. She says it is amazing. I hope to some day have my mind open enough to receive such an honored visit.

  By funnytrivianna, May 29 07 11:41 AM




• I am not a doomsayer, but I have felt or been in situations where I thought I or somebody else was going to die. Mostly it was my dad. He and I both had a medical problem; seisures. Once time it happened on the road and I was with him. Everybody said we should have died, but God was watching over us. He had brain surgery about three years ago, but he nearly died there.
  He is okay now, but it make me wonder what I would have done without him. Now he had been able to restart his life over, and got a double major in college after his surgery.
  Although there have been many times when I thougt I was going to die, I dont think I am afraid of death anymore. I believe in the Bible. There are a lot of ways to say it, but I think this is the best one:
  " Yea though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil. For you are with me; Your rod and your staff comfort me." ---Psalm 23:4
  I know when I get to heaven, life will be so wonderful I cannot even commprehend it. I have hope and faith. Yet we should all live each day to the very best, wether it is our last one or not. No one really knows how long they will be here. Even young people die untimely deaths. Plus, even if we go on to eternity, we need to make sure our friends and family are prepared. Though we may not feel anything when we die, they are the ones who have to deal with it the most. Thats why I try to let them know, even on my bad days, that I care a lot about them.

  By exceller, May 29 07 3:18 PM




• Exceller, I loved your post! I cant say i have no fear of death, but im not scared to go when my times up. I agree with you that its the ones we leave behind that need the strength to carry on without us. Thanks for sharing your story with us all. Every single story and anecdote that has been posted here means so much to us all, and helps to open our eyes to different possibilities.

  By ellie73, May 29 07 5:08 PM




• Great topic, Jo. Hoshin and others, I found your stories insightful. (I'll leave out my stories and persepctives for now.) I just recently finished reading Mitch Albom's "For One More Day" - has anyone else read it? It's a short read, but offers an interesting perspective on this topic.

  By Cher40, May 29 07 5:47 PM




• I find your post interesting spiritseeker. A friend of mine lost his sister a few years ago,and the evening after the funeral he was listening to music via headphones. I was sitting across the room from him when all of a sudden he screamed and he threw the headphones at the wall.
  
  I have never before seen a person go the colour he did,his face just drained with the fear and shock. After calming him down,which took quite a while as he was shaking so much, he was able to tell me. He had heard his sisters voice through the headphones! He told me that the music had just stopped all of a sudden and all he could hear at first was static,then his sister,asking him if he was ok and not to worry as she was happy.
  
  I have heard that this is quite a common occurrence,that spirits do and can communicate through electrical appliances.
  
  Strange but a true happening.

  By ELVIRA1, May 30 07 8:00 AM




• Before my next post, I'd like to take a moment to respond, at least in kind, to ELVIRA and spiritseeker. There have been many instances wherein medical science has come across at least anecdotal evidence of parts of the body manifesting "cellular memory" in life and, even after death.
  
  It is this very princple which is at the root of what we know of as holistic medicine, that branch of medicine that is based upon the belief that the mind is actually the best medicine---and the best preventative.
  
  There is a story related by the very esteemed medical doctor and expounder of holistic medicine Dr Deepak Chopra, about a man who recieved an organ transplant from the body of the victim of a fatal motorcycle accident. Immediately after awakening from his surgery, the organ recipient began having an urge for chicken and beer; this despite the fact that he had never taken a single drink of anything in his life.
  
  The urge built and built until it became irresistable, and the recipient and his wife went to the hospital that had performed his surgery to find out why this was happening.
  
  After a lot of resistance, the surgeon finally told him that the victim of the motorcycle accident had just left a restaurant where he had a chicken dinner, and had gotten hit while on the way from a package store where he had purchased a six-pack of beer.
  
  I relate this story because I have so much faith in science--medical or otherwise---and I use it as a vehicle to say this: If there can be retained in the organ of a dead man some part of his desires (even some so seeminly inconsequential as gastronomical ones) then who among us is to say that that which many of us choose to call "soul" cannot retain feelings so strong that they could be directed through tape recordings...or headphones? Oh, and one more thing...I am really, really in love with drivemecrazy.

  By bassman68, May 30 07 9:50 PM




• Hiya all,
  
  I haven’t replied to what you have had to say for a while, simply because I am surprised as to how many people have taken the time to post here. Let me say firstly that I am so grateful to you all; you have opened a whole new insight into what I believe and have been thinking about. The idea was to get people talking about things that I want to try and find answers to and I will continue asking questions on what you have said so far and hopefully in the future…depending on how long interest runs.
  
  I don’t want to tread on anyone’s toes along the way. If I do, I’ll say sorry now; I think that you have all put your point forward and given everyone the courtesy of being able to voice their own opinions without recriminations. I hope that will continue to be the case, as I feel this topic could dig deep into your thoughts and feelings!
  
  My questions…When I die is that it? Do I have a ‘soul’ and if so what is it? You have seemed to link together in your replies.
  
  The responses to these questions have been so interesting; I’m just going to reply to your comments on these two questions today. You all have different ideas that you have put forward, but when you read them and try to break the posts down into a basic answer, be it religious, scientific or just downright wishful thinking, you all say the same thing; that you hope or believe there is an afterlife; all bar one that is.
  
  Some of you talk of experiences that you have had or that you have heard of, pointing towards the idea that death is not the end and that we do go on in some form or another. You talk of Heaven, Hell, God, Jesus, Angels in the religious vein, but then cross over to energy, electricity, static, orbs, lights, even quoting thermodynamics, on the science side of the coin. Ghosts, spirits, guides are also mentioned too, fascinating!
  
  Well, let me throw another ball onto the court. Here are a few more things that you have all made me ponder.
  
  Heaven and Hell; where are they, are they existing places? I was taught when I was young that heaven is in the sky and hell is under the earth, but that’s not so, is it? Maybe heaven and hell are in your mind, do you decide where you will end up, while you are on this earth?
  
  Jesus, angels; I do believe that there were great, great prophets on this earth and have no doubt that Jesus lived and taught what he believed to be true to everyone he met, as did Abraham, Moses, Noah and Mohammed and all of the other greats in the Bible. But don’t you think that in the distant future the likes of Martin Luther King, Mahatma Gandhi, Nelson Mandela to name but a few will be seen in the same light?
  
  Do you think that the Bible as we know it is one hundred percent the truth? For instance, in Genesis it states that the earth is about 6,000 years old and the universe was created in six days, but science can disprove this fact with radioactive dating. Can I ask, what do you think the first men of that time would know about the universe and how it was created?
  
  Then to the science of it all! Energy, electricity…I love this theory and it is very akin to what I believe. Our nervous systems generate internal electricity, so what happens to the electricity in our bodies when we die? Is this our soul? Does it leave our body when we give up our life and move on to something or someone else? Is this why many people have had the idea that they have lived before…even to the point that they can describe exactly the places that they lived then?
  
  Oh well, my turn to say that I better leave it here for a while. I have so many things that I would like to ask and so many ideas that I would like to question. I’ll wait another while and see what you have to say to me now. Be gentle with your answers...and keep it simple Bass-my-man. By the way...is that love eternal? Ha ha.
  

  By drivemecrazy, May 31 07 5:01 AM




• Hi Jo,loved reading your post. Deep down i think we all know what happens when we leave this earth. Religion makes us HOPE that this is not all there is,but i,a catholic,know in my heart and,yes my soul too,that this is it. We can make make our lives Heaven or Hell on earth, and that to me is it.
  
  Scientifically, i believe that our bodies with all the energy it produces,for a short time after death, mingles with other energy forces and that is what produces orbs,spirits,ghosts etc.
  
  The Bible "The greatest story ever told" Which it is, is so profound and rules most peoples lives. I know that Jesus did exist,he must have done. As for the people you mentioned, Nelson Mandela etc. They will been seen as,doing Gods work,for a good cause and nothing more. But Jesus, as we know of him and his life story has been indoctrinated so much so that i can't imagine the masses ever disbelieving.
  
  The brain is a very,very clever device. We don't use it all. So maybe when we hear of people talk of past lives etc. they are using a part of the brain that others don't use and this,i think,is the next step of discovery!
  
  Sorry if it all sounds crap folks,but i have so much going around in my mind on this subject it gets jumbled up! Haha.
  
  Best go for a lie down now. :P
  

  By ELVIRA1, May 31 07 9:05 AM




• By weejit, Jun 01 07 4:47 AM




• Opps suppose i should type before hitting the reply button. that's what you get when you let the holy ghost make your replies lol.
  Can i add my tuppence worth to some of the things already said? Well i'm going to.
  Firstly i notice that most if not all of you that DO beleive in some form of afterlife usually use the word "Hope", surely this is a contradiction to what you beleive? I KNOW without a shadow of a doubt that when i die i end. Nothing happens after except i stop breathing, i go cold, i stiffen up (No jokes please), i get put in a box and become a worm feast in the ground.There is only one thing that will change my mind on this, is that if this g*d (now i struggle to use the title and will only give a small g deliberately) actually appears in front of me and gives me unarguable facts and proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is who he claims to be then i will become a believer.
  As a christian in my youth i was taught that g*d is love, then was scared sh*tless by being told of hell and demons and devils. Now how can this be so? Love does not conform to being scared into being a good living person.
  If i do something that could be termed as evil, for example say i was to lie, cheat, commit adultery or even murder someone, then i would not have a problem on my death bed except for my own conscience, but the christians amongst us would be living or should i say dying in total fear of what was to come after the end. Have they led a christian life? Is there something they have done that could be a black mark for heaven?
  On this point some have raised about internal electricty, consider the basic light bulb? When it is switched off it does not continue to burn it goes dark, okay it maybe has a cooling down period but the electricity does not go off somewhere else and start the toaster going does it? ... part 2 following.....
  

  By weejit, Jun 01 07 5:16 AM




• Good things happen to bad people and bad things happen to good people it's just life itself. no predetermination, no heavenly guidance just life and the way it is.
  A quick question thrown in here, my great grand father came into our house one day and told us that he was going to be a dad again he was 105 and my great grandmother was 102. Am i lying or telling the truth here?
  Growing up in a country where thousands were murdered and maimed over 300 years, and as some of you know i was touched by this personally, religion was the only thing that both sides agreed on. They both fought and died because g*d was on THEIR side, if this was the case then g*d is one sick being who likes nothing better than to play a cosmic game of chess and doesn't care who wins as long as his name is used.
  Sorry folks this started off as a comment and turned into a rant, i will finish by saying i hate religion and all those who try to ram it down other peoples throats, and by that i am NOT including any of you as you all have eloquently put your points across without preaching.
  Okay after that it's back in my box, take my pills and get the jacket back on and the arms tied behind the neck.
  

  By weejit, Jun 01 07 5:17 AM




• I've never been a religious person, I mean I was brought up by my mother who is quite religious but since I've become older I've questioned the ethic of what happens to person when they die.
  
  I'm a firm believer in the afterlife but I'm skeptical on the whole Heaven and Hell idea. I do believe the "soul" goes somewhere after you die but whether it goes to a nice place if you're a good person and vice versa don't quite buy that. I probably only think that due to my fascination with the paranormal. I know bringing up ghosts into the equation can cause a huge can of worms to spring open but I'm just trying to justify the fact that I'm a spiritual person, not a religious one.
  
  The whole "going towards to light" idea is another thing I think is probably untrue, I think it's a media metaphor for ascending from the physical plain and I'm not sure as to climbing up to a place surrounded by irridescent white lights is actually real.
  
  I do believe that right before you die, while some people say its "your life flashing before you eyes", I think it's the one and only time you truly understand who you are and why you're here.
  
  The Chinese believe that the "soul" is part of your "chi", your life force if you will. How else would Bruce Lee execute his famous one-inch punch!? I think the term "lifeforce" probably is the best idea that equates to the idea of the soul.
  
  Syn

  By synystergraves, Jun 01 07 6:06 AM




• Every one of our senses is a transducer...each of them takes data, stimulus, whatever, from the outside world and interprets it in a way that is designed to evoke particular responses, or abilities to respond, in the environment in which we live.
  
  But, just how accurate are they? Well, let's see, shall we? If you take your hand, the primary collection apparatus for your sense of touch, and place it on the screen from which you read this, certainly you could say that the screen is solid...certainly you WOULD say that the screen is solid...and would scoff at me if I said that not only is the screen not solid, but it barely even exists at all..it is as close to nothing as is the rest of our universe. All of it made up of virtually nothing.
  
  Let me explain just a bit, so that I may explain its relevence to our discussion here.
  
  The screen you just touched is made up of atoms. Those atoms have a nucleus made up of certain elementary particles and around them are electrons. If we were to increase the size of any of these atoms to the size of a tennis ball, the nearest object to it would be one of its electrons. That electron would be the size of the point of a pin---and it would be two miles away.
  
  Now that is a lot of empty space..so much so, in fact, that it mirrors the vast distances between objects in outer space ( and to get a sense of this, our sun is a less than a stone's throw by cosmological standards...and it is 93,000,000 miles away).
  
  Now, how is it that that much empty space can manifest itself to us as solid? How can something so demonstrably insubstantial recommend itself to us AS substance?
  
  I submit to you that it is because our senses give us not even the slightest representation of what reality is genuinely like. Our senses are so woefully inadequate for the job that we cannot know, from the use of them, what is even real---or unreal.
  
  If th

  By bassman68, Jun 01 07 12:47 PM




• at is the case, then how can we attribute the cessation of our senses--which is really what we know of as death---to the cessation of BEING?
  
  I submit to you that we cannot know what happens to us after "death" because we simply cannot know what our reality is like at all---and that what we see is not the look of reality but, rather, our way of looking at it.
  
  I find it singularly distressful as would any tninking living creature that a time must come when I should "ever know no more," as The Bard put it---and so I look to science, our only true friend in a sea of uncertainty, for a sustainable answer as to why that should not be. But should science one day inform me that that IS what will happen---then... amen.
  
  Bassie
  
  

  By bassman68, Jun 01 07 1:15 PM




• I dont think anything happens to use after death i'm not conceited or precious enough to think i deserve a place in the so called heaven,i dont think they would have me anyway. The only thing that distresses me is never knowing another spring day or seeing those i love dearly again.Really enjoying reading all the other comments

  By vally50, Jun 01 07 3:16 PM




• In fact,everything we encounter in this world with our SIX senses is an inkblot test. You see what you are thinking and feeling,but seldom what you are looking at!

  By ELVIRA1, Jun 01 07 3:36 PM




• I tried to post on here several times tonight but it wouldn't take my comments. Just in case any or all of the four times I tried to put it up get put on, it may be posted more than once because I was having trouble. Oh well, if this gets on - Hi everybody!

  By Hoshin, Jun 01 07 11:22 PM




• There is a saying: The man with the experience is not subject to the man with the argument. In other words, if it happens to you, you don't have to wonder...I no longer wonder if demons are real. When I was growing up, I was tormented by nightmares of demons chasing me. I had an "awakening" at 15, and I began to face them. I was running with a demon on my neck when I turned to face him and he shrunk back. This continued for a year until the night I faced a very powerful demon, a henchman. I chased him into a dark basement and we fought all night (he was huge, muscular and ugly). I wounded him one scratch at a time until he cried for pity with the voice of a child. I killed him and was never tormented again. Since then I sometimes dream future events, something I verified by telling others and then witnessing them together. This happens rarely at this point in my life and is beyond my control. Now, I have witnessed demons in control of others and been part of casting them out in the Name of Jesus, primarily in church. I have seen people set free from demonic influence and possession which usually is followed by tears of joy and shouts of thanksgiving.

  By Hoshin, Jun 01 07 11:55 PM




• Some doubt whether God, Jesus, or angels are real; thinking the devil and demons are myths but I know they exist. Leland Hodges, an acquaintance of mine was holding camp meetings in Mexico about ten years ago. The open air meetings caught the attention of witches in the area who began to attend and disrupt them. At one meeting, Leland was called out in front of the crowd by a witch. She called curses on him. Full of the Holy Spirit he told her that all the curses she had pronounced would return on her own head 7-fold. She was the #3 witch in Mexico. That night she was struck dead and many people turned to Jesus. I say that if you look around, you will see spiritual manifestations in the activities of people. Some are possessed by the Spirit of God, others by spirits of darkness, and countless others are being influenced unawares. Many are tormented by fears and have not identified the source of power that keeps them from seeing truthfully and getting free. As for demons, I think you'll find they generally do not like to be recognized but to operate behind the scenes. The Bible describes their nature, their purpose and their demise, along with those who follow them. Getting free from demonic influence is one of the things that opened up the truth of the bible and the nature of the spiritual world around us to me.

  By Hoshin, Jun 01 07 11:55 PM




• Hoshin, Can i just ask did the witch's death certificate say as cause of death "By God"?
  I would say that she had a case of bad luck or just pure coincidence.
  On another point you raise about demons as far as i remember from the bible that satan was the most beautiful angel in heaven when he was cast out, so why do most if not all religions cast him as a horned, goat legged being? This image is one that was used in paganism and adopted by religion to personify the image of satan. Religion is the biggest thieves in the history of the multiverses, they have taken images,ceremonies and characters from other cultures (for want of a better term) and bastardised them for their own uses.

  By weejit, Jun 02 07 6:03 AM




• During the Inquisition they ran out of heretics to kill so the church decided lets get the witches. the dilemma was how to tell who is a witch. So two Dominican priests wrote a book called The Witches Hammer. Having never met a witch they decided who was or wasn't With that came the torture and deaths of thousands. All in the name of Christ. Meanwhile in the Vatican about 12 popes were being murdered and another was holding a trial for a corpse. Yup, the Christians sure are the group that is going to be saved.

  By desertcat, Jun 02 07 10:05 AM




• Fortunately, I do not have to defend the actions of religious groups on the world scene. For my part, I am non-denominational. In fact, my position with God as my Father relies solely on a spiritual relationship made possible through Jesus and not on religion. My testimony is that the Bible is completely true and spiritual beings and manifestations are real. But I also stand for freedom to speak what you believe and to practice religion as you choose as long as it doesn't harm others. In so far as what happened in the Mexico story, you'll notice the Christians were not the aggressors. They did not go to disrupt someone else's meeting and did not initiate or seek the harm of anyone. I tell these things because they happened and are real. I will let the reader decide what they mean.
  

  By Hoshin, Jun 02 07 1:40 PM




• Hoshin. How did Leland react to her demise,did he feel responsible for her death? From what i know,he is a christian preacher,yes?
  
  I think we are going off the original subject that jo started.

  By ELVIRA1, Jun 02 07 2:12 PM




• Very good point Chloe we have taken over her blog and made it into something she never even asked. So i for one apologise to Jo

  By weejit, Jun 02 07 2:17 PM




• Hoshin. I find your posts very interesting. Perhaps you should start your own blog on this subject. I would sure reply to it!

  By ELVIRA1, Jun 02 07 2:38 PM




• Can I just say to you all that the whole idea of a Blog is to get as many responses to your questions as you can and to try to get people talking about their thoughts and feelings on the topic that you want answers to.
  
  The fact that you have answered and moved the goalpost is not the issue here. You are all talking about the same basic ideas, but using your own personal interpretations. This is what discussion is all about. Feel free to throw your thoughts around. I am finding your comments stimulating.
  
  It was mentioned to me recently that it is interesting to see the personal depth of the people with whom we just chat so superficially in Fun Trivia. It surely has given me the chance to see your real thoughts and to get to know you all much better.
  
  There is no need to apologize for something that I find fascinating. Keep Blogging guys and dig as deep into your ‘souls’ as you can!
  
  Jo.
  

  By drivemecrazy, Jun 02 07 3:27 PM




• Hi Jo.
  
  I found your last set of questions to be very interesting and thought-provoking, as was the first set. I'd like to respond to two of things, if that's okay.
  The first is about the stories in the Bible. I took some courses through the Catholic Church a number of years ago, and we were taught that the Bible is not written in a literal sense. Rather, each part was written to fit in with the understanding and knowledge of the people who lived at the time that each part was written, to help the people understand what was meant by the writers.
  The second is about the energy. It's said that energy and matter can't be destroyed - they just take different forms. So I totally agree with your ideas on that.
  I know this reply is to you, but I'd like to say that I found Elvira1's story about her friend to be very fascinating.
  For anyone interested in seeing my web site about voices, pictures, and video of ghostly voices, energy, and even some of apparitions, my URL is
  http://www.amateurspiritseekers.com
  
  Thanks again, Jo, and everyone who's replied, for giving us all some really important and interesting ideas to think about.
  Wendy

  By spiritseeker, Jun 03 07 10:10 PM




• how can the bible be the absolute truth? Moses is credited with writing the first chapter, then why did he have two creation stories When Jesus died on the cross the apostles who were there can't agree on what he said last nor on the events that occurred later. Historians have Herod dying three years before the so called slaughter of the innocents. And if this event occurred they why is there proof only in the bible, where were the historians of the day? Why would three priest(wise men)of Zoroastrian who worshipped Mithras come looking for a Jewish king/prophet when their own was being born. The flight from Egypt history tells us that a plague was occurring among the Jews and spreading into the Egyptian populance, and Egyptian oracle told them to get the Jesw out. Facts, Fiction, stories from other religions carried over like your childhood fairy tales. One cannot take the bible at fact one must read the stories of other cults, religions etc to get the true events. Each change to fit the needs of their people.

  By desertcat, Jun 04 07 4:46 AM




• When Dr. G. Archer wrote The Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties, he had learned over 30 languages, most of them languages of Old Testament times in the middle eastern world. He also taught more than 30 years at the graduate seminary level in the field of biblical criticism. He said, "As I have dealt with one apparent contradiction after another and have studied the alleged contradictions between the biblical record and the evidence of linguistics, archaeology, or science, my confidence in the trustworthiness of Scripture has been repeatedly verified and strengthened by the discovery that almost every problem in scripture that has ever been discovered by man, from ancient times until now, has been dealt with in a satisfactory manner by the biblical text itself - or else by objective archaeological information. The deductions that may be drawn from ancient Egyptian, Sumerian, or Akkadian documents all harmonize with the biblical record."

  By Hoshin, Jun 04 07 9:01 PM




• I don't have time to describe the supporting evidence for New Testament events by secular historians such as: Cornelius Tactitus, Lucian of Samosata, Suetonius, Pliny the Younger, Thallus, Phlegon, or scholars such as Josephus and Justin Martyr. Besides, it would be a shame to simply defend Scripture when absolute proof is in abundance. For instance, to be the promised Jewish Messiah, Jesus had to fulfill over 61 major prophecies. Many of these were totally beyond human control. Eight of these were picked for a calculation: place of birth, time of birth, manner of birth, betrayal, manner of death, people's reactions, piercing, and burial. The odds of any one man in all of history fulfilling all 8 by chance are 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000 or the same as if you covered the State of Texas (261,797 square miles) 2 feet deep in silver dollars with one of them painted black on one side, mixed them thoroughly, put on a blindfold, drove as far as you wanted, got out of the car and happened to pick up the marked coin on the first try. Considering that Jesus fulfilled all 61 prophecies proves mathematically that he is the promised Messiah.

  By Hoshin, Jun 04 07 9:43 PM




• Sheesh,Hoshin. I;m gonna try that. Now where's my blindfold?......Ouch!

  By ELVIRA1, Jun 05 07 3:37 AM




• Hah - good one Elvira - what did you bump? I can think of worse problems than standing around in that much money! Debates are kinda fun but after awhile, it's a good idea to lighten things up a little. This type of topic is about the quickest way to upset people and even though I have some strong beliefs, let me say that I sincerely appreciate everyone's candor in expressing their honest opinions.

  By Hoshin, Jun 05 07 10:42 PM




• Bassman - You definately come across as an extremely educated person and some if not most of you postings come across way above my head and level of education.BUT one point you mention about parts of the body manifesting "cellular memory" in life and, even after death.
  How has this been tested? and how did the outcomes be reached?
  And also what do you mean by anecdotal evidence or has this been substantiated by any other independent persons.
  The point about the transplant and the chicken cravings. Are you suggesting that a vegetarian who gets a liver transplant from a meat eater could then lead a life shunning their vegetarianism?
  Or a child you gets a heart transplant from a mass murderer then there is a remote chance that child will harbour feelings and desires of wanting to commit murder? This is really reaching into the realms of Frankenstein's monster creation who after given the brain of a murder becomes a destructive creature.
  I hope you understand that i am not attacking you or your beleifs but the points you raised in your posts.
  One final point..what did you mean by you really love dmc? Is this a declaration of love or just fanciful hoping lol.
  Regards
  jp or motormouth.

  By weejit, Jun 06 07 5:19 AM




• Anecdotal,I should imagine he means,the telling of something ie story,or as in my case,when my friend heard his sister through headphones.
  
  Me being an ordinary person and without the help of say,a scientist was able to relate this anecdote!
  
  

  By ELVIRA1, Jun 06 07 8:57 AM




• I know what the word anecdotal means Chloe, but usually one telling an anecdote is talking from personal experience.

  By weejit, Jun 06 07 1:26 PM




• Yep,and I was Wee git! LOL! hehehe.

  By ELVIRA1, Jun 06 07 1:56 PM




• Firstly, weejit, let me emphasize this: Nature does not look at a human child with any more favor than it does, say, a lion cub, or a seal pup; our children seem to be given less to natural cruelty than the rest of the animal Kingdom (and, yes, we are a part of the animal Kingdom) only because nature HAS bestowed upon us one very valuable favor---the big brain that allows us to protect them better. I say this to you because you invoked the word "child" as though it should make some difference in what is natural and what is not...weejit, in your quest for knowledge, I urge you to resist your tendency toward both anthropocentrism and, more importantly, sentimentality.
  
  Neither will serve you well in endeavors of discovery. I will respond to your questions, though, a bit later.

  By bassman68, Jun 07 07 6:19 AM




• The very nature of what is termed "anecdotal evidence" is that which, at the present, has not been tested or proven by scientific means. Anecdotal evidence IS evidence from personal experience; but that experience need not be one's own. It can be, and when quoted by doctors, scientists, and the like,usually is the experience of others.
  
  Now some anecdotes are more credible than others. for instance, if you travelled to a hospital where the majority of the doctors there were to give similar stories as the one i gave about the transplant, you had best believe that those doctors would harbor some tendency toward

  By bassman68, Jun 07 07 8:47 AM




• giving some credence to these stories--otherwise, they wouldnt utter them im a professional setting. And who better to determine the credibility of a medical phenomenon, anecdotal or otherwise, than a trained medical specialist?
  
  Now, as far as cellularr memory goes, let me say this: we do not understand how cellaur memory works--all we know is that it does exist. For instance, we are all familiar with the phenomenon of amputees experiencing "phantom" pain from limbs that are no longer attached to the body. Since the brain is made up of cells, (although very specialized ones---neurons---) are we to deny that cellular memory DOES exist. And since you mentioned Frankenstein, let me give you this:
  
  Neurons are cells that perform their function by forming connections with other neurons around them...the shape and direction of these connections (along with a lot of complicated chemical interactions) determine what we know as memory, disposition, knowledge--any of our cognitive functions. In short, these connections literally are who we "are."
  
  If you took the brqain of a murderer, and re-animated it, weejit, I assure you that you would not only get a tendency to do murder---but you would get the murderer himself.

  By bassman68, Jun 07 07 9:06 AM




• Weejit, we have no idea HOW cellular memory will manifest itself, or to what degree. I do not assert that a child or anybody else will experience what the recipient in my example did. All I'm saying is that I give the anecdotal evidence of its occurence credence. And that I do not discount that it COULD happen to a child.
  
  I thank you for your attention to my thoughts, weejit--and you also, ELVIRA. This is the sort of thing which I enjoy very much---though I never get invovlved with blogs, lol.
  
  One last thing, weejit: drivemecrazy is my girlfriend, and it is not wishful thinking. Now, how about that for a topic? LOL
  
  Bassie

  By bassman68, Jun 07 07 9:13 AM




• Perhaps,a good thing to read up on bassman and weejit is the Tibetan healing and medicine! Makes for an interesting read.

  By ELVIRA1, Jun 07 07 9:48 AM




• Bassie, As i stated earlier you are definately way better educated than me so most of what you said went way over my head lol. Can i ask that you dumb down your posts to my level which is usually in big letters using big fat crayons. I hope i didn't offend either you or Jo by my question?
  I still stick by my beleif that when i die i will end,nothing else. I will also stick by my claims that extrenal forces either angels or demons do not exist and that they only are in the mind of the person.
  I was going to rattle on about personal experiences from years ago but this would be going way off subject even more than already done, leading more to why i know that g*d doesn't exist and why the teachings of the great frauds so called b*stard son are nothing but a complete fabrication, made up by human men to entrap the populace of a lesser educated people in a time when it was all they had to cling to.
  By the way i did look up a dictionary for some of those big words lol
  Peace out folks

  By weejit, Jun 07 07 12:22 PM




• Oi,weejit i'm an angel,you demon you! Isn't that proof enough! LOL.

  By ELVIRA1, Jun 07 07 12:33 PM




• Jo, so sorry to hear that people are sending you nasty notes. That is terrible and uncalled for.
  
  Like many others, I have been following this blog with interest. I have been particularly engaged by the narratives of bassman and Hoshin.
  As a highschool science teacher, I wanted to put forth some ideas that I discuss in my 12th grade biology class (17 & 18 year olds). Given the age and relative inexperience of my usual target audience (as well as my own limited background in philosophy and such), I know that I will fall below the intellectual bar of bassman and Hoshin and some other readers. My class discussion usually takes at least an hour, but for the sake of brevity, I shall attempt to paraphrase.
  
  My question is essentially, what, of everything we learn in school, is "true", or, of all the things we learn in school, what should we accept or believe to be a truth.
  
  Strangley, someone always begins by stating that history is true. Of course, they soon realize that history is most often recounted from the perspective of the writers and the victors.
  
  Science is usally tackled next. Eventually, the students realize that science may not be true either. The ideas or theories taught in science are what is currently accepted because the evidence appears to support them; however, future evidence may contradict those theories and new theories may develop that will be supported by that evidence.
  
  Generally, students agree that math is true. They agree that 1+1 always equals 2, but are perplexed when I write 1+1=10 and state that it is correct (as those who are mathematically literate can understand.)
  
  The purpose of this discussion is to make the students think about what they believe to be true. In school, students are required to learn and know curricular material, but they are not required to beleive any of it.
  
  What we believe to be true is based upon personal decisions that we each make. Ultimately, we each should be able to review any evidence presented to us, critically evaluate the merits of that evidence, and make an informed decision.
  
  Essentially, I believe that what a person chooses to believe is an individual option. A person may be basing his or her belief on information, proofs, or evidence that others consider to be incorrect or unworthy. In a simplistic view, I think that if no one is getting hurt by that idea, then what's the harm of it? I also believe that it is inappropriate to expect others to believe a perspective just because they are told to or told that it is correct.
  
  Personally, as a person with a science background, I do appreciate and embrace the logic of the scientific perspective. Spiritually, based on my own personal experience, I cannot discount the presense of a higher power and all that may go with it. (I have used my own personal experiences as evidence to support my beliefs; however, I would not expect others to use my stories as evidence to supoort their belifes as there is no way to evaluate my "proof.") From the perspective of organized religion, I am a member of a Christian church.
  
  This blog seems to have evolved into science verses religion, specifically Christianity. I do not believe that they have to be polar opposites. I also believe that a third, possibly even more important, element is being neglected: spirituality. In some cases, one's spirituality may coincide with religious views. In most cases, I believe that one's personal spirituality may be very distinct from, or may even exclude, religion.
  
  So is there life after death? I suppose we will never know. If there is, we will know it when it's too late to add to this discussion, and if there isn't, we will never know. In the mean time, we each get to decide what we want to believe based upon whatever evidence we choose to accept.
  
  And, on a lighter note, isn't "life after death" an oxymoron anyway, because if you're dead, you're not alive? (Just kidding.)
  -Cheryl
  
  

  By Cher40, Jun 08 07 3:01 PM




• Cher, your points are thoughtfully made and useful to the discussion. Some say there is no God and are bold enough to slander heavenly beings. Let me assert that they have no excuse for not knowing there is a God and it is therefore, extremely unwise to mock Him. How can I say that when some say no one can prove God's existence? Look around you, anywhere and everywhere at the organization of nature, regardless of the great space in between the particles of matter, things work according to rules in a system. As Cher says, everyone must choose what they believe is the truth in regard to Jo's questions. Even deciding not to decide is a decision so we cannot get away from it. But can anyone logically explain away God's existence? If there is no God then everything evolved without a designer.

  By Hoshin, Jun 08 07 7:59 PM




• First of all, let's skip all the steps to create space and matter to fill it and all the laws of the universe that govern the behavior of matter since it is too lengthy a topic in this forum and most of you don't dabble in quantum mechanics and particle physics like I do. Let's just assume that by itself, the universe and it's laws came into being: all of the forms of energy and the subatomic particles developed into atoms of all the elements and they formed the stars and galaxies and the Sun and the Earth fell into place and this brought us to a time where the substances on this planet were ready to be animated into life. Okay, if you've got the faith for that, get me over the next hurdle - how do you get life from inanimate (dead) objects without a maker? You have to suggest that without a designer, it happened by random chance over time. Does this make any sense at all? Really?

  By Hoshin, Jun 08 07 8:00 PM




• Consider the simplest form of life, a single-celled organism - the amoeba, and its complexity. You must admit that all its systems had to be in place at the same time for it to live. You will see that it is not simple at all and absolutely could not survive without all its functioning organelles (individual subcellular parts) in position and working. These parts enclose a liquid medium within the cell, protect the cell (cell wall), nourish the cell (permeable membrane to keep cell contents in and harmful things out while filtering food and water in), repair cell parts, reproduce cell parts, produce energy for the cell, transport things around the inside of the cell, process waste out of the cell, etc. Without all of these highly specialized parts and systems to "communicate" with changes in the environment around it (which must be exactly suitable for life), move around (flagella) and adapt to its niche, all together and somehow animated into life, the cell would die instantly.

  By Hoshin, Jun 08 07 8:00 PM




• This minimum requirement for life to exist is an irreducible complexity. You cannot simplify the situation any further and call it life because it would be dead and...there are not enough years of time or atoms in all the known universe for it to be anywhere near possible to be put together by chance. To have it happen by chance would violate the laws of nature, primarily the Second Law of Thermodynamics which says that everything is becoming less organized, not more organized over time. The DNA code itself is a written language, thus there must have been a writer. Without the exact code, there is no pattern for construction of the tissues of the cell (by the living parts of the cell) to be built into this "original" cell in the first place, or recreate it and continue life to the next generation. When you chose your alternative to God belief system, consider the odds - are you being objective or are you choosing according to what you want to believe and thereby relieving yourself of the need to be responsible to a higher power? Do you actually have another theory that has a reasonable chance of explaining the origin of the universes and life? Bring it on. As a scientist by trade, I am sincerely interested in your evidence.

  By Hoshin, Jun 08 07 8:01 PM




• Just a couple of points from me again:
  All human cultures worldwide have spirituality, generally organized into religion. Has there ever been a culture discovered that didn't have religion? (That might indicate something...)
  
  Religions are stongest when the people are enduring hardship and suffering - at the times when we need support and strength.
  When all is going well in our lives and in our societies as a whole, such matters are easily and often neglected.
  We as individuals and as a society tend to turn towards religion and God when things are not going so well.
  
  Perhaps we accept and believe in life after death only when we feel we need to.

  By Cher40, Jun 08 07 9:24 PM




• that 'tunnel' is heaven. and i'm going to heaven. :D and the bible is right. but we cant talk about that on here.

  By cleopatra_, Jun 08 07 10:19 PM




• Hoshin, firstly, the second law of thermodynamics does say that the universe tends toward entropy (or becomes more disorganized), but that is for the system as a WHOLE, not for very, very minor components of that system...as are we. (So minor, in fact, that at this point in our development, we cannot appreciably affect thermodynamic entropy one way or the other)
  
  You want life from inanimate matter, Hoshin. You, as a scientist, I am sure are familiar with the Miller-Urey experiments carried out in 1953 by Stanley L Miller and Harold C. Urey at the University of Chicago?
  
  In that experiment, they used water, methane, ammonia, nitrogen, and hydrogen, which were all the major constituents of early Earth's atmosphere (and I hope we do not need to argue the veracity of what was in our early atmosphere, since these components are what was NECESSARY to synthesize what we have today).
  
  They sealed these gasses inside of a closed, sterlile system of flasks and loops so that nothing could get in or out. They then heated the water so that it would evaporate at one point and cooled it so that it would condense at another---this to simulate the exact conditions of Earth's rain cycles.
  
  They then used electrodes within the apparatus to simulate lightening storms ( a phenomenon that also had to be a constant factor in our early ecosphere), and they kept this going, over and over again.
  
  At the end of a week of continuos operation, they found that as much as 15% of the carbon within the system had formed into organic compounds..which I'm sure you understand are those on which all life that we know of are based. Now get this: 2% of it had formed into amino acids---the very building blocks of proteins in living cells---13 of the exact ones needed for animal life and plant life on earth (the animal part includes Homo sapiens, sapiens--us), as a matter of fact.
  
  Now

  By bassman68, Jun 09 07 10:09 AM




• if an experiment on so small a scale as this can synthesize thirteen of our amino acids, what do you suppose these processes occuring on a planetary scale with geological intensity could do?
  
  "I speak not to disprove what Brutus spoke," Shakespeare had Marc Antony say, "but here I am to speak that which I do know." (from Julius Caesar)
  
  Similarly, Hoshin, I do not discount your position on God---only your leaps of faith that tend to offer it as epistemologically proven when you have, in actuality, substituted faith for reason---or even objectivity--in your interpretation of the evidence.
  
  Next, I think we shall discuss a bit the quantum mechanics in which you "dabble." For it has been my experience with the study of quantum theory that ANYTHING and EVERTHING is not only possible...but that anything and everything is possible AT THE EXACT SAME TIME AND IN THE EXACT SAME SPACE! Remember Schrodinger's cat? Or the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle? How about the Airy experiment? These all have a singularly significant bearing on your position, I believe.
  
  But I will wait for some direction from our architect here, drivemecrazy. We may have morphed her intention and taken this to a place she may not wish it to be.
  
  But I WILL catch you later, Hoshin.
  
  To everyone here, especially Hoshin:
  
  This is an excellent blog, and I think we shall have fun and stimulation here..but let us never take offense---and let us never, "...Cry havok, and let slip the dogs of war." It's all good fun, is it not?
  
  bassman68

  By bassman68, Jun 09 07 10:25 AM




• My head hurts. And my brain is boggled! LOL!

  By ELVIRA1, Jun 09 07 11:04 AM




• One more thing:
  
  Please do not take my position as one that excludes a God...in fact, I do not NOT believe in God. It is only that, if there is such a thing as a "soul" and if I must determine where it is to spend "eternity", then I think it is prudent that I and all of us realize that we are bringing a very valuable thing to a very serious table for a very long time.
  
  Don't we owe it to ourselves to seek what is right and true and good IN ACTUALITY rsther than to be TOLD what is right and true and good by dead men whom we have never even met?
  
  bassman68
  

  By bassman68, Jun 09 07 11:41 AM




• Hey - for me this is fun! Thanks for the interesting response Bassie. We definitely need to talk sometime. I won't go long until, as you say, the Driver gives more direction. I am amazed that you seem to be saying that the Theory of Evolution as an explanation for how the universe developed is not a violation of the Second Law! Is that what you mean to say? Second - It has been proven that the Earth's atmosphere could never have been of the right reducing character to form the primordial soup and sponteously allow the creation of life (see a book called Lifecloud by Wickramasinghe). If the atmosphere contained free oxygen as most scientists believe, the oxygen would have combined with the amino acids which would make them useless as proteins. Even if you did get some somehow, that would not fold them into proteins, a very complicated process. Ihe odds have been calculated by biologists at one in 10 to the 40,000 power of any randomly created amino acids becoming a lifeform! In the known universe of 50 billion galaxies, the total number of atoms is about ten to the 74th power! Can anyone even conceive of such a number so many times greater than anything we can count in the universe or believe this experiment means life overcame those odds and developed from an organic soup by chance? As far as my leaps of faith, I'm not trying to define God thru my argument, only show the evidence that there had to be an intelligent designer. And Bassie...your Shakespeare reminds of that Star Trek movie. Have a great weekend everybody!

  By Hoshin, Jun 09 07 12:30 PM




• Just to throw a spanner in the works;so to speak.
  
  It has been said that human scientists from another planet,created all life on earth using DNA.
  
  As told to Rael."We were the ones who designed all life on earth. You mistook us for gods.We were at the origin of your main RELIGIONS. Now that you are mature enough to understand this,we would like to enter official contact through an embassy"
  
  This message dictated to Rael explains that life on earth is not the result of random evolution,or a super natural god,it is a deliberate creation using DNA by scientifically advanced people who made human beings literally "In their image" a scientific creationism!
  
  Hmmmm,Aliens?

  By ELVIRA1, Jun 09 07 12:52 PM




• Hey, Hoshin, do you mean to say I sound like Khan? ROFL!!! I appreciate that my man.
  
  basman68

  By bassman68, Jun 09 07 2:27 PM




• Hi Bassie - I wuz thinking of General Chang (Christopher Plummer with an eye patch) in Star Trek VI but you're right, Khan quoted some Shakespeare too - Khan was one Bad Maam-ma Jaam-ma, lol! Back to the discussion. Have I gotten us off track a few times? Let me explain - I know many of you don't believe the Bible story or else accept some of it but not all of it. I have tried to make the case to you that it is real, the whole thing, as seen thru Bible knowledge, history, scientific endeavors, and life experiences. If it's Truth, then as it says, you have to have the Holy Spirit guiding you to understand it and those who receive Him are called Sons of God (men and women). This doesn't leave any room for humans to pick and chose which parts of the Bible they like. When I read Jo's questions, I knew the answer to them all because they are answered in the Bible. But what is the point of explaining the answers if your listener rejects the source that you speak from? So my idea was to set some groundwork for why I don't just have empty faith but confirmed trust in Jesus and the Bible; why I know where I am going after death and what will happen in the next age. In Deuteronomy it says that the things revealed belong to the children. As a child who submits to the Father and reads and listens to His Word with a believing heart, you can find all the answers on your own as I did. He doesn't turn away any who sincerely seek truth with a humble heart. If there is interest, I would gladly tell what the Bible says on these questions or any other. Honest criticism won't bother me, but if you just want to mock, let's not waste our time. I also could tell about when I got slam dunk spirit-filled and later how I met Jesus face-to-face if someone still wants to know. Do I think I'm better than anyone else? No. Do I think I am better informed than most of you? Yes, because I am open to the source of light given to man from Heaven. Am I still just a fun guy to know? I hope so - most people are far too serious all the time, life is too short to walk around grumpy and if you don't agree with me then we've got grounds for an interesting discussion!
  

  By Hoshin, Jun 16 07 11:05 AM




• Thats an honest point Hoshin. Being saved dosent make you better than everyone else, it makes you a new person. It makes you alive, energetic, and enthusisatic (see im so excited I cant even spell the word!)! When you repent, it makes you humble, and it also opens up all the garbage you have in your life! Then when you get the Holy Ghost....YAAAAAAAAAAHOOOOOOOO! Then baptized.....! It feels like a lightning bolt! Plus it means you have connection to a source of power....Jesus Christ! Whom if you trust him and carry out his will, "all things are possible to them that love the Lord!" Im not saying it will be easy, but I'd much rather have Jesus on my side than going through this world alone. When you're saved, and you think about it, this world is not your home, you're just passing through, and your treasures are laid up, somewhere beyond the blue! It makes me feel kind of homesick, but happy to know Jesus lives in me, and will ccarry me through the days that are rough!

  By exceller, Jun 17 07 9:14 AM




• Sorry guys, Hoshin got me excited. If you are confused here is the scripture refrence to back it up...."Repent and be baptized, every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins; and you SHALL recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit! For the promise is unto you and to your children, and to all whom are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call!" Well Praise Jesus! Im so excited! Im glad its Sunday!ITS TIME TO GO TO CHURCH!

  By exceller, Jun 17 07 9:20 AM




• and by the way..that was Acts 2:38!

  By exceller, Jun 17 07 9:21 AM




• 
  I dont mean to get off the main line, but your comments about if the bible is true or not, concerning science and dating technology did spark my interest. However let me put it in terms that other people like me can understand. Yes I believe that it is 100% true. You see, most of these technology machines, operate and focus around the elvolution theory. Carbon dating is a powerful tool, but even in highschool teachers will tell us it is not trustworthy. The Bible puts out plainly that the earth is young. Now...with that in mind Id like to focus on one thing evolutionist claim.
  Evolutionist believe that the earth is old, and all the things we know today came by chance, and changed through billions of years of time. If you look at their animals theory (how animals have changed and evolve to what they are) it has lots of holes in it. First of all when a species evolves, it has to adapt or it will die. Many animals scientist claim are linked to evolution....but the ancestors are still here! Thats doesent match up with evolution now does it? Another example (Ill do this with one of my favorite creatures!)....the meerkat is thought to evolve from a mongoose. Well if the mongoose adapted and evolved into a meerkat, why is it still around? IT DIDNT EVOLVE AT ALL!
  

  By exceller, Jun 17 07 3:49 PM




• The same thing is true with the big bang theory...it says matter exploded and formed from many tiny elements that exploded! Well how did it exploded if nothing was created yet? The Bible says...(im phraphrasing)In the beginning there was the word, and the word was with God. Now in Genesis Chapter1,it says "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth". That puts it real plainly. Now back to evolution, if all these things happened by random chance, how did it form if nothing was created? My belief...IT DIDNT! And more good news...there is scientific evidence to prove there was a Great Flood as in the days of Noah! You never hear about this because many people have kicked the opputunity to show this to students out the window with separation of church and state. If all this...happened by random chance...what would be the purpose in living or life itself?

  By exceller, Jun 17 07 3:50 PM




• On the other hand (let me get on my soapbox)I believe God created me with a special purpose and plan. I believe that I did not happen because of an accident, because my body itself is so complicated only a creator could design every inch to work just right while giving it a personality. Just the same...if I was an accident..why would God want to save me? The Bible says, in Psalms,"I will praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made". Jesus went to the cross to save his own masterpiece...man. The Bible says we are made in his image(Genesis). While God despised sin, he did love the world, "to give his only and begotten son" for it, "that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish but have everlasting life"! Now..I am not saying just believing is all there is to it. I can believe a lot of things, and not have a relationship. But Jesus has allowed me to carry on a relationship with him through the Holy Ghost! Yall can argue that by looking at my past posts. :)But Jesus also loved us enough to give us a choice. He will NEVER force someone to surrender their heart. However He will not compromise on our terms either. I believe that you have to come to Jesus with your whole heart. If not, why would anybody want to change in the first place if they would rather stay the way they are?
  
  Something to think about....maybe Hoshin can back me up! I just took a wild step of faith by posting this!
  

  By exceller, Jun 17 07 3:50 PM




• I have never watched someone die. However I do know what it is like when people are so depressed they are looking forward to death, and wish it would happen. In a way, I think it is stronger than death itself, when they lose a desire to live. When my dad was at his worst, he could not even pick up a glass of water without help. It would be a battle of him praying for the strength to do it himself. (he is better now.) But I have watched friends when nothing is wrong with them, except the fact they gave up on life. Its hurts terrible, because it left me a feeling, that they dont care about the pain it would do to others, only the happiness it would give them.

  By exceller, Jun 19 07 8:44 PM




• Responding to my previous comment, sometimes I think the afterlife, is all those kind of people hope for. I have known one that believed that death itself would end everything that hurt her, and there was no afterlife, only peace. But I find that those who trust in Jesus the most, find strength where they didnt even know they had it. Plus if they did pass on Jesus has left a promise, that they could come to him and he would give them rest. At the same time, I believe he was talking to those alive. Nothing can hurt those that have died. What they did is permanant. But for the living, we still need rest and strength.

  By exceller, Jun 19 07 8:48 PM




• Guys I just thought of an old pentecostal song we used to sing when times were rough. I thought it was relevant and would probaly sum up everything Ive said. In a way it has been my theme song.
  
  Put your life into the Master's hand
  Put your life into his master plan
  For he has a work for you
  that nobody else can do
  Wont you put your life into the Masters hand?

  By exceller, Jun 19 07 9:46 PM




• We all, each and every single one of us, MUST come to terms with the very fact of the absolute CERTAINTY of the cessation of our lives as we know life to be. Even worse, I think, is having to come to terms with that same certainty of death for those that we love..and never want to see die. Please believe me when I say that I understand the enormity of the weight of this realization for us...friends, all, believe me, I do. Though I do not wish to relate an account of it here, I will say that I have lost a younger brother...and his passing left a path of emotional destruction and physical anguish through my family as deep and as lasting as anything anyone else has ever felt..and of that I am quite sure.
  
  I appreciate all of the comments here..I make light of none of them..and I do my very best to think them all through very carefully---and very thoroughly.
  
  What I'd like to get across most urgently is that I have never wanted to get into a debate over the merits of religion versus those of science. It is only recently in human history that religion even allowed for anything scientific at all to even enter into the discussion..usually religion won out..not on its merits, but on a singular, and in my view, maniacal, predilection to inflict death or, maybe worse, complete social ostracism on those who would disagree with even the smallest of its tenets
  

  By bassman68, Jun 20 07 12:35 PM




• People speak of the "unreliabilty" of some of our most powerful scientific tools...like carbon dating. You say things of this nature after, i believe, having viewed the biased arguments of the pseudo-scientific----the same kind of "researchers" who insisted, vehemently, that global warming was a myth..while the polar ice caps steadily melted, greenhouse gases tripled, and, on a more personal level, even those of us living in less than temperate climates were able to wear shorts and t-shirts almost up until Christmas Day.
  
  There are so many things that we could argue about...but I believe, fervently, that those things that are irrefutable should be taken as just that..and that no philosophy, belief system, or adherence to faith, religious or otherwise, should stand in the way of what we can KNOW to be true.
  
  I so dislike to itemize when it comes to the substantiation of my views..it bears the hallmarks of nitpicking, and this is never a good thing. But let me say this to you all:
  
  I am going, for the sake of argument, going to grant you that carbon dating is unreliabel (even though the only time carbon dating has been unreliable is when either: a. the process was not well-understood or b. impurities in the sample were not properly taken into account). But what about the presence of an isotope or uranium, uranium-235?

  By bassman68, Jun 20 07 1:18 PM




• Uranium has a half-life of 760 million years..and you keep in mind that this does not mean that in a given sample half dissapears in 760 million yrs, and then the other half goes...what half-life means is that in 760 mil yrs, half of a given sample will be gone...then 760 mil more yrs, and half of THAT will be gone...then 760 mil MORE yrs, half of THAT..you get the picture? The age of the earth, as expressed by geological scientists is not some arbitrary number based on the birth of a child in some manger in the Middle East; it is a number of years that the presence of certain things on our earth has led them to determine as beyond doubt. We dont just take it on faith that the earth is at least 4.2 billion yrs old...we arrive at that number because uranium-235, and that is only one substance, had to have been here for at least that long---EVEN IF IT WERE DEPOSITED HERE BY ANOTHER CELESTIAL BODY!
  
  People, I do not have issue with your belief systems...but I must---and I do---take exception at the presentation of psuedo-science as a refutation of ACTUAL science. Please understand that your right to believe what you believe is sacred to me...but I also believe that nobody is beyond refutation when the very foundation of their assertions are, essentially, in error.
  
  bassman68
  
  

  By bassman68, Jun 20 07 1:32 PM




• Wow - I am loving the deep convictions expressed here. I have a growing respect for many of you...The Bible doesn't say the earth is 6,000 years old, although that is popularly taught. It only says that there has been 6,000 years since Adam was created, in other words, when the Age of Man began. I agree with what is known as the Gap Theory which occurs between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2, and leaves ample room for the earth to be about 4.5 billion years old as the half-life of primordial nuclides, like uranium, dictate (uranium-lead ratios are probably the most accurate method of evaluating the age of the earth). I work with radiation as part of my job and used to carry the job title of radiation health physicist and not that I am anything great, but I am qualified to completely agree with Bassie on his point, the earth is undisputably over 4.5 billion years old. This fact, however, makes no conflict with the Bible story.

  By Hoshin, Jun 20 07 5:08 PM




• Wow, I never saw this blog before although someone posted almost the same question in theirs last week. And 103 comments- that's fantastic!
  
  I had absolutely no belief in life after death but recently two friends have either been in virtual conversation with someone I knew via a medium or directly, and now I'm not so sure. I definitely believe in clairvoyance though as it's part of my life.

  By satguru, Jun 21 07 8:20 AM




• And may i just say,when God who created the entire universe with all its glories,decides to deliver a message to humanity,let hope he WILL NOT use,as his messenger,a person on cable t.v.with a bad hairstyle! LOL!

  By ELVIRA1, Jun 21 07 12:35 PM




• OK, here are some more details for you. I said on the other blog (It shouldn't be hard to find from the title) that when we were put on earth it was to deal with the life we knew and the rest isn't necessary to know about and will take care of itself, ie as you can't know you may as well get on with it here as looking ahead can't reveal anything.
  
  I was happy with that, but when two people tell me the dead have apparently had real time conversations with them, one being my stepfather who took the woman over and gave my friend direct advice and gave his name and life history I start to wonder. I've heard mediums many times who give messages which don't relate to the person but we could all make up, or alternatively brought in specific information only known by the subject which could simply be explained by clairvoyance, including finding lost items. But when a spirit starts to speak in a live conversation with the subject in the correct personality we would all recognise then you can't really get that from clairvoyance.
  So if they are in fact allowed to do it (which I would have thought they were not as it would remove the mystery of death) why don't they do it all the time? I've investigated this area for 15 years and true after death communication has taken this long for the first examples. OK, it's not really useful to focus on conversing with people no longer with bodies and unable to interact with matter but it would let us understand a lot more about the universe which I think we all need to know.

  By satguru, Jun 21 07 5:32 PM




• Scientia omnes vincint.

  By bassman68, Jun 22 07 6:25 PM




• Well, this is the second to the last of my personal testimonies that I hope help explain why I know that the things in the Bible are real. I don't know how to tell it any shorter. I attest that it is 100% true with no exaggeration. I was going to a small neighborhood church for about five years where they believe in all of the gifts of the Spirit (ref: 1 Corinthians 12) and they are manifest among them to the point where there's even been someone raised from the dead among us (I still go there). The church is not famous, nor any of the members and we have never been on TV, thank God - just simple people full of life! One night at a men's retreat in someone's living room, the leaders came around washing feet. After more worship they started praying and laying hands on people. They did this with a 55-year old man I knew and he fell. Without thinking I grabbed him and was immediately hit with Power. In numerous karate belt tests, I had broken up to 12 inches of concrete with hammerfist strikes and several times broken 4 inches with my head and I was used to channeling energy and exploding with power but this was so much stronger it was utterly overwhelming. It surged through me top to bottom and I crumpled like a rag doll. It was, best I can figure, 20-30 minutes later when I realized I was lying on a big lazy chair and this man, my 200 pound friend was lying atop me. During that time, I was communing with Jesus and I believe I was surrounded by angels although I never saw anything. I can tell you it was the Glory of God I was reacting to which in the Hebrew (kabod) is a manifest presence that is substantial and weighty and more sensation than you can process. During this time, I lost sensation of my body and in fact, did not remember it till the end of the experience as I returned to awareness of where I was. I realized what a strange position I was in and how wild it was that I had not reacted to the strangeness of it till a long time had passed. I had to fight to regain command of my body. My first desire was to thank Jesus for guiding me into this experience which was by far, the most beautiful feeling I had ever felt. As I tried to tell him thank you (at that point he had not faded back yet but was still in my mind), I found my lips especially thick. My mind was struggling with the fact that thank you fell woefully short of the depth of gratitude I wanted to express. I stumbled to utter the words and to my complete surprise I heard and felt my mouth speaking in the tongues of angels absolutely without my forethought, guidance, or effort. As I was amazed at this, at the same time I was feeling the expression of it. I felt the release of power in the form of a thank you my mind did not know how to say, like when you look someone in the eyes and grab hold of them and tell them that you love them with all the meaning you have in you - you feel a communication like that in your spirit. Best of all, I felt the warmth of Jesus smiling in response as He faded back from my mind. Now, this was my "Pentecost" experience and where I got filled with Power and Joy and Peace that Thank God, has never left me.

  By Hoshin, Jun 22 07 10:50 PM




• Last one/best one. I was at a special point in my life where I was giving up things as I tried to demonstrate an increasing dependence on him. These were things that made me independent and which I formerly put a lot of stock in. Somewhere along the way, I had a little Jesus/karate thought in my truck. I was contemplating what it would be to see Jesus. I thought about how great he was that the Father had made everything through him (ref: Colossians 1:16). My next thought was how in karate we are trained to show respect for rank in order to put ourselves in a position to learn. I immediately said out loud that when I finally got to meet him, I would not be so callous as to treat him like my equal and look him in the eyes and stride right up to him but I would avert my eyes downward and show humility in respect for his preeminent position. As I said this, I felt his pleasure like he was saying, yes Chris - that is good. I was thrilled that I had had a thought that pleased Him. Several weeks later, I had an unusual opportunity to help one of his servants. It was something that nobody else was aware of and in doing it, I put my life in jeopardy while out-of-state. I did it and that night in the hotel, I had a vivid and lucid dream - there was sight and sound and feeling and I knew I was dreaming. I was on a white cloud that extended as far as I could see in all directions with a wonderful white light all around. I was checking this out when I saw the figure of a man far away. I knew instantly it was Jesus. I almost left my feet in excitement when I realized who it was and that no one else was there but us and he was looking at me! Instantly, I remembered to avert my eyes downward as I thought - this is what I said I would do and you were pleased with it. He answered, “Yes,” in my mind! Thus began a communication throughout the dream. We never spoke out loud but I knew his thoughts and he mine. More than that, I felt his spirit and soul and he felt mine. I actually experienced him experiencing me and I now know what the scripture means when it says, "...then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known (ref: 1Corinthians 13:12)." I need to pause here to define Soul. Jo has given us this as our topic question and I think the term is widely misunderstood. Your soul is not your eternal spirit. It is your mind, will and emotions. It is not your spiritual essence that animates your body but it is that which makes you, you. Your character is displayed in it as a reflection of the gifts God placed in you and what you have done with them; what the years of your life have taught you to be. Now, back to my story... His presence, his glory (kabod), was so peaceful. His strength was absolute but I felt no recrimination, no shame, only love. He drew me toward him but I kept my eyes down, holding on to that decorum. He drew quickly up in front of me as I found myself watching his feet. Then he said with his thoughts, "Now look up at me Chris." I slowly brought my eyes up till I was looking at his hands. As I saw them I remembered what the men had done to him. All the parts of the crucifixion are horrible. It was designed to be the worst form of torture man could create. Scientifically developed to heighten every sense of pain and not allow the autonomic nerve system to shutdown. But the part that has always horrified me the most is when they hammered the nails through his wrists (not the literal hands). Well, as I looked at his hands, this thought crossed my mind and instantly, men were there abusing him and there was the cross and they were pulling his arms back and nailing them down. I was repulsed and then angry and I started to karatefy them but he stopped me in my mind and said, "No, this is what had to be." The flood of emotion was overwhelming as he let them do this terrible thing to him in front of me. It was like he wanted me to experience some of what it was like to be there and to know the extent of his love in allowing it. Then, as soon as I got that, they were gone. And, he told me to place my hands in his. I reached out and grabbed those hands and felt his strength flow through me like an electric shock. Then, once again, he told me to look up at him. I realized I was still looking at his waist and at his hands, standing toe-to-toe with the Creator of the Universe. Now, feeling the weight and magnitude of his sacrifice and the love that inspired it, I slowly looked up until I was looking face-to-face into his eyes. His soul is more beautiful than anything you can ever imagine! It melted me like hot butter - and I woke up and it was five minutes till the alarm was to go off, and I started shouting and leaping around the room like a mad man!

  By Hoshin, Jun 23 07 2:07 AM




• Okay, thats kind of it for me. I'm going on a trip now. I will be away from computers and most conveniences and don't know how long I'll stay. I might not even come back. It has been my great pleasure to be part of this and to get to know many of you in the process. I will miss you badly but will be hoping and praying that you find your answers and your happiness.

  By Hoshin, Jun 23 07 2:13 AM




• I got some really great news this morning and won't be going after all. Wow - What a relief! In fact, my friend (a missionary) will now be coming here to the US. Sorry for confusion.

  By Hoshin, Jun 23 07 10:28 AM




• Hoshin's stories are interesting, but there are many other people like him that have seen the "Master" Jesus. However you dont always hear about them, because sometimes there is doubt and fear about telling other people, with some.
  Back to the road accident that I mentioned before, I did not give all the details, because I was afraid yall would think I was crazy. But Hoshin did inspire me to give you the whole thing.
  

  By exceller, Jun 23 07 10:47 AM




• My dad and I were coming home from the big city, where we had just seen a specialist for our medical problems. I quickly fell asleep in the car, but an hour away from home, sounds scared the daylights out of me. I woke up to find my dad was having a seizure and the car was rapidly going down hill. We were no longer on the freeway. The truck hit three trees, two flew overhead, and the last one stopped it. I was scared because I had never been taught how to operate the car swtiches to escape. Everything was electric, and I did not know how to operate the windows. I turned around to see a girl in white on the window sill, and a boy in between us. I was not scared, but confused. The girl told me it will be alright, and pointed to the switch on the car door. I pushed it, and the window fell open. In a few seconds rescue crews had me rushed to the hospital, and care flighted my dad. We walked out of the hospital that evening without even a scratch.
  Later we had went to the wrecker and found out truck. The man couldnt believe we were alive. The truck itself looked like a smashed tin can. There was no front or back (both had been crushed to the sides of the cab.). But the cab was like new. It looked like it had been pressurized by some unknown force. The man also said that if we had gone one inch further, we would have landed in a lake and drowned. If there are any doubter, i can safely say it was the hand of God, or I wouldnt be here. When my dad turned to me...he belived everything I told him. "It was angels", we both agreed. I was only a child, but we still drive down that highway. When we come close to where we were, my mom always prays and thanks God for our "angel spot". There were mutiple times in that wreck when I should have died, but God saved me for some purpose. If nothing else....to share his glory.

  By exceller, Jun 23 07 10:47 AM




• It's been wonderful reading the last few posts...i'm in awe of the writings!
  Love and peace to you all.

  By ELVIRA1, Jun 23 07 1:30 PM




• Dr. Melvin Morse is a pediatrician who used to think that people who were interested in near-death experiences just wanted to be on television talk shows.
  
  
  But something happened to one of his patients that changed his opinion. Now he believes the evidence points to something after life.
  
  Most scientists will explain that near-death experiences are caused by the lack of oxygen in the brain in the last moments of life.
  
  But Dr. Morse believes he's found evidence that it is a glimpse of something beyond our existence.
  
  "I interviewed a 6-year-old child"," said Dr. Morse. "We resuscitated him. He opened his eyes and he dramatically said, 'That was weird, two guys just sucked me back into my body.'"
  
  Dr. Morse is a respected pediatrician. He was a skeptic about the issue of life after death until he was confronted with a story he couldn't explain away.
  
  "She was what you would call clinically dead," explained Morse. "She was under water for 19 minutes."
  
  After the 7-year-old girl was resuscitated, she started drawing pictures.
  
  "What she described to me was not a hallucination. It was a blow-by-blow accurate description of her own resuscitation, but from a bird's eye point of view," said Dr. Morse.
  
  The child believed she had to go back to her body to help her mother with her unborn brother. She drew her unborn brother with a big red heart. Several months later her brother was born with heart disease.
  
  

  By TheCodFather, Jun 27 07 8:20 PM




• Cont..
  
  "How can dying, comatose patients perceive anything? That's what fascinated me," said Dr. Morse. "I knew that something important about human consciousness was to be learned."
  
  Dr. Morse has recorded dozens of interviews with children who have experienced near death. He says he finds the experiences with children to be the most pure.
  
  Dr. Morse says he doesn't believe in God himself and he has little interest in the experiences many adults often have reflecting their own religious beliefs and cultures.
  
  Critics say it is because Christians tend to see Jesus and Indians see Hindu gods, the near-death experience doesn't seem scientifically credible.
  
  Social worker Kimberly Clark Sharp says she couldn't come to terms with her own out of body, near-death experience until one of her own patients had one.
  
  Sharp's patient went into cardiac arrest. After she was resuscitated, the patient insisted she had risen out of her body and floated up around the hospital where she saw a blue tennis shoe on the third floor ledge.
  
  To calm down her patient Sharp went to look. "I did find a blue tennis shoe on the ledge," said Sharp. "She got everything right as she described it to me."
  
  

  By TheCodFather, Jun 27 07 8:22 PM




• Cont..."It's clear even when people are flat lining in the last moments of life, something profound is happening," said Dr. Morse. "It is something today's monitors can't pick up."
  
  Dr. Morse's findings have been published in medical journals and he's working to see if something physically changes in the right temporal lobe of the brain when someone has a post-death experience.
  
  "One child told me it was a light who told her who she was and where she was to go," said Dr. Morse. "I want to interact with that light that tells us who we are and where we are to go while we're still alive. That to me is a challenge of the near-death experience."
  
  Dr. Morse believes you can get in touch with that part of the brain through prayer and meditation. There's no absolute proof, but he believes that people who have that near death experience are stepping into another realm.
  
  

  By drivemecrazy, Jun 27 07 11:21 PM




• The last section of the above post is obviously a continuation of TheCodfather contribution here. A request to post it was received this morning.
  
  The Blog doesn't take long posts...as quite a few have discovered! It's best to split text into smaller sections.
  
  A great contribution too Codfather, thanks.

  By drivemecrazy, Jun 27 07 11:29 PM




• I think thats cool Codfather!:)
  
  This is kinda creepy, but the is always some mystery in death. Not always does the person reveal what they are thinking before they die, but sometimes their body leaves a testimony.
  
  I knew two pentecostal people who were great witnesses. One was an old man. I cant remember what killed him, but he had a slow death that was very painful. Before he died, vistors were only allowed to go on one side of the bed. A few moments after he died, my dad walked in (he was the pastor). He noticed that the man's head was turned to the opposite side, as if he was looking up at someone, even though there had been nobody there the whole morning. He also had his hand outstreched to that side. There was no window, nothing on the walls, that could have captured any attention. My dad believes, some unknown being, maybe an angel, was revealed to old man Bill before he went home to heaven.

  By exceller, Jul 04 07 11:03 AM




• Continued!!!
  
  You may say that is crazy. Well the other person I knew since I was a toddler. She was a pentecostal lady that played the piano for us, and did our sewing. We were so poor in the house where we lived, that in winter time big drafts would blow through all the cracks. She made us a quilt out of her old dresses so we could keep warm. She had a lot of love. The year before she did she had throat cancer. Eventally she had a stroke and they moved her to the speacials hospital two hours away. She began to get better, but was placed in a nursing home. When she died, she was all alone. However the nursing home chaplin noticed that when she died she had a smile. Also, her body was not cold. Instead it was as warm as if she had been living. But her heart had no heartbeat, and she was not breathing. This dear lady always said she wanted to go "home"with the mark of a witness. Meaning, she wanted her death to be supernatural as a sign to others. When her dad (an old pentecostal preacher) died, she had always told us it was a bright sunny day with no cloud in the sky. After her dad breathed his last words, "It is finished", she said a thunderstorm immidiatly appeared, with so much lightning, everyone had to stay in the house for hours. This may seem strange, but I believe deaths like these still occur.

  By exceller, Jul 04 07 11:12 AM




• Now to some of you doubters, you probaly say I made this up. I was there when the old man had just died, right before they took out his body. Some have scoffed and said this is ridiculous. He must have seen some bug on the wall or something like that. The old man was in so much pain he was 99% blind. As for the lady, she never lied.
  
  Things like this still happen all the time. I have heard stories about people who believed there was no God, that died in a strange way.
  
  When my youth leader was growing up, he remembered staying outside of a door of a man that had been out of church. Seconds before the man died, intense screaming was heard and the man was yelling,"I feel fire, I see Hell." The preachers that were around began praying but the man died with a look of intense pain.
  
  A youth speaker had an uncle that died in similar fashion. This man hated God and everything that had to do with it. But he was screaming for somebody to pray, yelling about Hell, and fire as well.

  By exceller, Jul 04 07 11:22 AM




• Somebody asked me once if I was religious. In fact, they were accusing me of being so. I had to think long and hard about it because it is a label that our society tends to give people that serve God. After a good bit of introspection, it came clearly to me. You see, I have long fought the idea of religion because I have seen it put out the fire of so many people. At first when they believe that Jesus died for them, people get excited about finding the person of Christ. They set their mind on the idea of someone who loved them enough to tell truth and live truth in a wicked world and suffer terribly for it. They set out to demonstrate their gratitude by pursuing the high calling of obedience to God's will. Then they get into trying to live up to a pattern of what other people expect or what they expect of themselves and fall into judgementalism and dissappointment. For my part, I want to maintain an enthusiasm and joy in connecting with God and let him show me in every moment, how to act. I want to be real about it and not just reason that I'm pleasing to him because I said or did something once. I want to be full of his love that was so beautiful that he suffered terribly so he could have me with him. I want to show that love for other people in the way I think and act and live. As I pondered all this it came to me that my religion is to follow the way of love, to do what the spirit of love in Jesus, directs me to do. That is truly what it means to "be saved." It is not some list of accompishments or pretensions to perfection. It is simply to lay aside one's own needs for the sake of others. To embrace their rescue, as Jesus did. As I've said before, when I read the bible cover-to-cover, I found and continue to find, all the answers that Jo is asking. His Spirit in me illuminates why he made me, what his plan is and what my destiny is...So...I will go where Love leads. May each of you find Love too. There is nothing better in all of the universe than to be pleasing to to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the Father of our souls and to have his spirit in your heart.

  By Hoshin, Jul 07 07 3:11 PM




• Hi everyone. I asked DMC if she would remove my comments and she was kind enough to do so. Unfortunately,someday each of you will understand my decision. Until we blog together again, wag well and prosper.

  By ozymandus, Jul 12 07 3:00 PM




• The afterlife is bollocks, I lost my best friend on the 22nd of March, my Dad would have let me know if there was. Religion is a cruel and terrible thing, imposed on the weak of heart to bolster their insecurity, and line the pockets of the church( The Catholic church in particular, whom rule their adherants by fear). As if taxes weren't enough.
  And there aint nothing more sure than death and taxes.

  By Hawkeye58, Jul 15 07 6:13 PM




• Hoshin, sometimes I ponder the same questions about religion. Its often hard not to push our beliefs on religion. If you go up to somebody and they ask you why you do what you believe and you reply,"Hey! I love God!', then they confuse you even more when they say they love God, so why arent we the same. Sadly the next reply, it usually, "Its my Religion!". To me thats all relgion is, is loving God. But there are so many versions of that phrase, sometimes we dont always agreed with others ideas of that. Likewise, many relgions have different versions of heaven, and (shhhhhhhhhh!)Hell. Some dont even believe the two exist. I have been talking to a friend who believes in Buhda. The more I have studied the beliefs of his, the more confused I get because we are so different. Terms like recarnation and yabbadabbado (I made that up to substitute all the words I cant pronouce), make it difficult to understand. I find it frightening to see that the generations today are the first not to dwell on philosophy. Instead they ask questions like, "Is there a God at all?" "What evidence is there?" and "Does it even matter?". Serving God is not an laboratory idea, yet with some people's idea I feel like a lab rat. Everyone wants proof. To me serving Jesus is not religion, its a relationship. He is like a father, for he tells me what to do, but he is also a friend, that is not so hung up in his own power, that he is ashamed to talk to me, like some worldy friends have let me down. Yes there have been times when I have been upset with Jesus, but he has never let me down. I find the more I seek him, the more I find him, and the more I find him, I LOVE him! Its more of a friendship than religion.

  By exceller, Jul 16 07 1:20 PM




• OK, Jo...let's try this again. I read your original blog and scanned over the 121 replies before me. It certainly got a little deep for me. First off, I am not a religious person. In an effort NOT to offend anyone I am not of the religion that recognized Jesus as the Messiah and I probably was pretty much of an Agnostic for my earlier life. I am closer to finding the answer to your questions and will make sure to have a laptop available when I make that 'trip' and send you a reply. It's funny that the further you are from death, the more you worry about it. I did at one point obsess over it also, but not so much now. I have read the bible, in college, as a work of fiction (class project) we decided that there were too many characters in it for true fiction. I don't want this to get lost, like last night, so I will do my reply in successive replies.

  By maskman22, Aug 11 07 12:39 PM




• My reply will probably wind up being more light hearted than the others, but let's go. As you know, I work with people who have suffered Traumatic Brain Injuries and am certified in Brain Care. Most of my clients have been in comas for a period of time and several have been pronounced dead. The 'white light' phenomena is common to all of those who were pronounced dead, this has come up during 'therapy sessions.' My theory is that the 'light' may be the brain and/or the ocular system shutting down, the 'light' being the final flash of the organ's existence. Some of them are spiritual and none ever mentioned seeing a Deity or anything of that sort. In work & life, I have been in the presence of several persons at the time of death. I do not recall any of them calling to anyone, mostly the final moment has been one of silent reflection. The question of what happens when you die I would answer that I think that the body dies, but the 'soul' lives on, in the hearts and minds of those the deceased touched during their time on earth. In other words...somewhere down the line of YOUR life, when I am no longer 'in it', you will remember something I said and at that instance, I will still exist. I still have many fond memories of people I only knew briefly....fifty years later. They will live in my mind for as long as my mind lives. I think that is where you go when you die. Life after death?...I am still looking for life after marriage and children. I think that I have reasonably related most of my opinions on the matter, If I think of more I will post them later. I DO NOT want to live forever, I still have a lot of life left, but accept that it will soon be time for the younger generations to enjoy (or correct) what my generation and I have created.

  By maskman22, Aug 11 07 1:02 PM




• Sorry for the double entry, still trying to learn the blog world.
  
  I think that I have reasonably related most of my opinions on the matter, If I think of more I will post them later. I DO NOT want to live forever, I still have a lot of life left, but accept that it will soon be time for the younger generations to enjoy (or correct) what my generation and I have created. In conclusion, you're young...worry about it, but don't let it control your life...before you know it you will be at the point that you no longer have to wonder...you will just accept the inevitable.

  By maskman22, Aug 11 07 1:08 PM




• Craig, glad you made it on here and started things up again. I want to continue with comments toward non-believers in general that describe scientific evidence for God's existence. If you replace God, you have to come up with a logical alternative or you are thinking irrationally. I suggest that science provides plentious evidence that proves God exists so that a rational man is forced to accept it as fact, unless he is unteachable. For example, there is something called the Anthropic Principle which says that the only rational way to explain the incredibly precise balance between all the forces in the universe in the exact manner to create and sustain life, is to recognize a divine creator who fine-tuned it for that purpose. In this comment, I will just give one observation from astronomy to support this theory. Later perhaps, I will present evidence for this theory from other fields of pursuit. Dr. Jastrow, an astronomer, recently declared that even an extremely small increase in the strength of the nuclear forces that hold together all atoms would create a universe of stars composed of helium instead of hydrogen, as we have now. The helium would have burned up much more quickly and completely changed the characteristics of our sun, completely destroying the balance that allows life to exist on earth. Conversely, if the nuclear forces were ever so slightly weaker, carbon atoms would not have formed in the universe so no life could exist.

  By Hoshin2, Aug 13 07 1:39 PM




• Try this for a good argument for God. It was brought by a physicist named Dr. George Stanciu and his colleague. They wrote: Matter does not need special instructions to manufacture snow flakes or sodium chloride (table salt). These forms are within its power. Not so with organic forms. Thus living forms transcend all other natural forms, not merely because of their unique activities...but also because the laws of physics and chemistry alone cannot produce them. What does produce them? What cause is responsible for the origin of the genetic code and directs it to produce animal and plant species? It cannot be matter because of itself, matter has no inclination to these forms, any more than it has to form Poseidon or to the form of a microchip or any other artifact. There must be a cause apart from matter that is able to shape and direct matter. Is there anything in our experience like this?

  By Hoshin2, Aug 14 07 11:08 PM




• Yes there is: our minds. The statue's form originates in the mind of the artist, who then subsequently shapes matter, in the appropriate way. The artist's mind is the ultimate cause of that form existing in matter, even if he or she invents a machine to manufacture the statues. For the same reasons there must be a mind that directs and shapes matter into organic forms. Even if it does so by creating chemical mechanisms to carry out the task with autonomy, this artist will be the ultimate cause of those forms existing in matter. This artist is God, and nature is God's handiwork.

  By Hoshin2, Aug 14 07 11:13 PM




• HUh?! Hoshin you lost me! autonomy, Anthropic people, and a bunch of other words I know, but its the way you put them together! Whoduhwhata? An artist painting Anthropic people using chemicals? Im sorry guys, but I am really confused. My lightbulb is fried with genius talk. Give me a few moments to piece what I DO know together.

  By exceller, Aug 16 07 10:44 AM




• Scratch the scinece out! Its a bunch of theories and plastic surgeries that a country person wouldnt understand unless they were a science major in college! Ok...(microscopic science now)if there was no God...how are you even living? You can plant something (do all the right things) and it die or never grow. If the plant does grow it wasnt you, but a higher power. People are shocked to life from heartattacks (this is as sciency as Im going to go), BUT THEY STILL DIE! Its the same thing...something other than a doctor helped them live. Now, people have come up with other Gods forever. How do you know which one is real? Do you try them all out like paint on a canvas, and the pretty one works? No..you could spend the rest of your life doing that and still not find what you are looking for. The answer is in faith and prayer. To make sure you knew he was real, Jesus sent his spirit to live inside us. We let Jesus in by telling Him we are sorry and give him our heart. When we do that, Jesus allows his spirit to come in. People always told me when he comes in you know it. This is because Jesus tests out the doorbell a few times by letting us speak in other tougues (WE DO NOT KNOW! If you are biligual and switch to praying in two languges that is not it). Now, you can try it with other relgions, but It wont work. Its just like sticking a key in a lock...you have to have the right one. Jesus is the only key thats going to get that door open.

  By exceller, Aug 16 07 10:56 AM




• No as for eternal life...no one knows what heaven really is. Its like a birthday present wrapped up that you cant touch until a certain day. On earth we may compare things and moments to heaven, but Im sure NONE of us have ever seen enough gold to pave a highway, or a pearl the size of our house! Things that we love will not even exist, because they are temporary and wear out. The Bible says nothing that wears out will be in heaven. Where does that leave humans? We die here. In heaven we will have GLORIFED Bodies. Everything will be in the image of God. Thats pretty big to think about. How would you know what heaven, or even imagine heaven would be like, if we have never seen those things? The answer...we know Jesus. And everything will be like him.

  By exceller, Aug 16 07 11:02 AM




• sorry guys...please pardon the typos...I get so excited when I type I forget to check my spelling...the first word in the last post is now*

  By exceller, Aug 16 07 11:08 AM




• To take the fact that we live in a certain way and say that it is because we live in that way that God must is a massive and, perhaps, unforgivable concession to the conceit that is so easily bourne from our own small, limited experience.
  
  Tell me, when you all look out at the stars, what do you see? Do you see a universe, our own pitifully small corner of it populated by BILLOINS of stars all by itself, that is in existence to harbor only one way that life can exist? Do you see carbon based life forms such as those on Earth and say, oh, well, that's all there is!
  
  

  By bassman68, Aug 17 07 10:15 AM




• There are billions upon billions of ways that life COULD exist...what if one day we found life based on silocone rather than carbon? What happens on the day that a life form contacts us that looks nothing at all like us...which of us will, then, be created in the image of God? Will it be them, or will it be us? Because as surely as we sit here, religion will be then, as it has consistently been in the past, at the forefront of the denigration (and even the advocation of the annihilation) of that species should it not adhere to the tenets which it has set down as the "word of God."
  
  It is not the existence of God to which i object--but the existence of religion. RELIGION has been the steadfast oppressor of humankind, not God.
  
  Sometimes I think that the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has ever tried to contact us. After all, how intelligent is it to go looking for a fight?
  

  By bassman68, Aug 17 07 10:21 AM




• "Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has ever tried to contact us." This sentence should have been in quotation marks and cited as to the source. It is from an old Calvin and Hobbes comic strip that I read in the Sunday paper a long time ago. Sorry for my negligence in not citing it..kind of excited.
  
  Bass

  By bassman68, Aug 17 07 12:01 PM




• Bassman - Pure religion is to follow the way of love. There is no law that can stand against love or fault to be found in it. Religion that is made up of rules created by man will always fall short but if our goal is to find God, who is spirit, he will reveal himself to us through the Bible. It is his method. I can speak to it because I have not only accepted it but I then received him and he me. Most turn from him with unbelieving hearts and do not receive his offer of revelation and fellowship with his spirit. To them, the Bible will always be just another book. In regard to your more scientific statements, I thought about the same possibility even as I wrote the comments. Since silicon is in the same family of the Periodic Table as carbon with four outer shell electrons, it is the next most likely element for life to be based on. Silicon-based life would be much more resilient than carbon-based life and I agree we should accept its occurence as a possibility. But, do your comments mean you don't see the importance of the argument I was using. It is that there is an OBVIOUS fine-tuned balance to all of the forces in the universe to make life possible. Even the slightess adjustment in magnitude of any of the forces would make it impossible. No random force could align them all in such a precise balance as to make life possible. This is a very old argument that is very strong, not something I came up with on a whim to defend my faith in God. If you want to refute the theory, you have to come up with a viable alternative. Silicon-based life would be possible, only because it could exist under the current conditions of the known universe. Ergo, any upset in the balance of the universe would also upset the possibility of life existing in that form.

  By Hoshin2, Aug 18 07 1:31 AM




• You seem to misunderstand me, Hoshin. Never, ever did i once say that there is no Grand Designer. Call that Grand Designer what you will: God, Vishnu, Horus, Ra, Jesus...whatever---the NAME it is given makes no difference at all to me. I have no compunction at all with nomenclature.
  
  It is the trappings ascribed to The Designer--moreover the extreme limitations placed on the Designer with which I have issue. You say "rules created by man." But what if you start from the premise, as do I, that the major (and, for that matter, minor) religious books of the world--the bible foremost---are man-made? Do you see? You take the "Holy Bible" as sacrosanct, whilst I, invariably and without exception, do not. I ask you, Hoshin:
  
  What if you were born into the community of Salem during those witch hunts? What if you held some position of authority within that time and place? Would you have advocated all of those innocent people to be tortured and killed because of that hocus pocus?
  
  

  By bassman68, Aug 18 07 7:24 AM




• I ask this because you i think that it must be understood that I dont believe religious people to be evil: but also thatI understand that religion has all too often in the past, and all to often will in the future incited people to do evil things. Those people in Salem believed what they were doing was right--just as we believe today what they were doing was wrong. Religion attributes things to the Grand Designer that they would find reprehensible in human beings---make It a sanguinary, jealous, childish, murderous beast, all in the name of religion.
  
  So the fact of the matter is, I see now: we were not having, really the same conversation. You have thought that I deny the existence of what you call "God" simply because my way of trying to understand this entity---or whatever It is---is complete and utter adherence to studying the natural world, the universe, and myself. This I find vastly superior to reading books put together by men who had serious political---yes, political---impeti to compile them.) (Certainly you are aware of the Council of Nicea and the role it played in the inclusion and exclusion of what is in or out of the Bible?)

  By bassman68, Aug 18 07 9:19 AM




• (Before I go on, let me, please, clarify: When I said, "hocus pocus" I did not mean anybody's religion is hocus pocus. Even if that were my opinion, I would keep it to myself. I have no wish at all to denigrate religion in the main. Some people rely on iy--therefore it is just as well a self-philosophy for them as is mine for me. "Hocus pocus is a referal to the fits, fevers, visions, whatever that started in the first place and drove to the last the hysteria that brought about the deaths of those human beings. To me, it is obviuos, though, that the strict adherence to and, uncompromising literal interpretation of, the bible is what created and maintained the stifling and opressive atmosphere which made such atrocity possible. Indeed, whenever humans have decided to kill other human beings on any appreciable scale whatsoever, the invocation of "the will of God" has always been invoked somehow, someway.)

  By bassman68, Aug 18 07 9:27 AM




• Hey Bassman, Sorry if I misunderstood you or misconveyed your meaning. I thought you used the argument that life could be silicon-based to say that the Anthropic Principle had no validity as an argument for God as the designer to balance everything and make life possible. Of course, the comments are set out in writing and you can defend them if you feel you need to so I won't worry about tip-toeing around. Now, I think you are saying you believe in a Grand Designer, a god, but don't know who he is, what his name is or necessarily care what his name is. Also, you are saying you reject the bible as the word of that grand designer and instead ascribe it to man. If I thought like that, I wouldn't follow it either. Let me ask you to consider this: If the Grand Designer is powerful enough to create the universe and tune it for our existence, what would be the best way for him to draw us to him. If he came down himself and spoke plainly, revealed the mysteries of iniquity (separation from God) and sanctification (separation from the world unto God), boldly proclaimed the truth and did miracle after miracle in front of 100s of thousands of people that we might believe, and then rose from the dead and was witnessed by over 500 people as a glorified man(1 Corinthians 15:6). If he did all that and it was recorded and circulated in letters all over the known world in a contemporaneous fashion so the millions of people, the crowds, were still alive to refute the specific stories. And the letters were compiled into the Bible, and no facts were ever successfully refuted, even after over 2,000 years of research by archeologists and scientists. Now wouldn't that be strong evidence that God did this thing? Surely you have free will to decide for yourself but I would love to see the evidence against its accuracy, especially in light of the 1948 discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls.

  By Hoshin2, Aug 18 07 11:57 AM




• I would have protested against the witch trials. I stand for religious freedom in the tradition of the US Constitution. Jesus never said to force people to believe in him or kill them. A Christian is to speak the truth in love. Where is the love in burning people at the stake? Further, I hope I would have had the strength to die for my belief in men's freedom to worship and to have the Bible in their language like William Tyndale and John Huss did when a religious system burned them at the stake for translating the Bible into the common language and preaching it to men.

  By Hoshin2, Aug 18 07 12:06 PM




• Ok...bassman...I kinda understand what you are talking about. Intelligent life and all that jazz. "The Grand Designer" lives up to the name. Now if I was to make a clay statue in my image and somehow make it come alive (I am just imagining all this illistrating nonsense from my own brain), then I made another one and made it come to life, put them on two separate tables, then sit in a recliner and watch to see if they would ever meet. They might! I do believe Jesus has the power to create more intelligent life than humans alone. We may find it one of these days. Just like an artist, I know He did not stop with Earth alone, because there are millions of planets and stars out there. But...black and white...we do know that we are in Gods image. Now...in my mind (MY OWN BELIFS! NOBODY SAID I HAD A COLLEGE DEGREE IN EXPLAING THIS!)...aliens or "intelligent life" would fit into the category of everything else besides humans. Yes they may be able to think and make descions. But my dog can do that! And my dog does NOT HAVE A SOUL! Meaning when he dies eventually he will turn back into dust with no after life. Aliens may live and do their own thing but in the end I do not believe they have souls. So..in that sense they will end up like my dog someday...dead with no hope of reviving. Did I make any sense at all? These are just my beliefs. I did think your comments were pretty cool, though.

  By exceller, Aug 18 07 2:21 PM




• exceller, exceller, exceller. I sure hope that I am not correct in interpreting your statements as meaning that you believe that anything that were to visit us that did not look human would have to be as souless as your dog (if, indeed, your dog is "souless"...how could you possibly know that?).
  
  Hoshin, I give you exceller as Exhibit A.

  By bassman68, Aug 18 07 3:12 PM




• Hoshin, when you ask what would be the best way to draw us to him---maybe tht would be highly individualized, yes?
  
  Certainly my brain and yours are a part of the Grand Design. What would be the best way to reach a brain, a product of that design, that has been predisposed toward reason and investigation? Could it be, perhaps, to provide suitable avenues to engage those qualities?
  
  

  By bassman68, Aug 18 07 3:25 PM




• I just looked at exceller's profile. She appears to be very young, and so I withdraw her as Exhibit A. LOL.

  By bassman68, Aug 18 07 4:07 PM




• LOL! Thanks bassman! Glad I can step down from the labratory display.
  
  Okay...slowly now...
  
  No..if I saw an alien I would probaly get his autograph. But I do not believe he has a soul. I believe God chose humans as the divine race. Now...I may be mistakened. Maybe they can. If I ever see an alien I will invite him to church and see if he gets saved!
  
  Now...(here we go into the pentecostal) My dog is not saved! Dogs cannot get the Holy Ghost! Once when I was little I tried to help a cocker spainiel get it and it didnt work. I had just gotten the Holy Ghost and I thought an easy target to save would be my dog. My dog did not start speaking in other tounges. Anything has to have the Holy Ghost to get into heaven. And you can only recieve it if you have a place to put it...your soul. My dog didnt speak in some heavenly language! He didnt talk cat, cow, chicken or English! He wagged his tail! Maybe that was his way of telling me it was a move of the spirit I dont know.

  By exceller, Aug 18 07 4:30 PM




• Ok, young lady. I gotcha. LOL
  
  Bass

  By bassman68, Aug 18 07 5:00 PM




• Hey exceller, I'm just wondering...if these aliens have no soul, how could we treat them? Could we, like, put leashes around their necks and say we own them? You know, sort of like you did with your dog, Servitude, or whatever his name was? Or maybe just get them to run to the corner store for us when we didn't feel like missing the next performer on "American Idol."
  
  I mean, after all, if they have no soul, then they can't be as good as us anyway, right? So who cares!
  
  Bass

  By bassman68, Aug 18 07 5:06 PM




• I dont think I would. But I do have a picture of what you are saying. I guess thats how the indians felt when the Europeans tried to force them to be saved. Keep in mind neither you nor I have ever seen an alien. What would you do? Jesus said go into all the world! We only know of one world that IS recieving the gospel. If you added an "s" to that statement if would have a huge difference. Yes, if aliens did have souls, I would have to change my thinking. Just like many of the missionaries had to change their thinking when they found out Jesus dosent look at skin color.

  By exceller, Aug 18 07 5:15 PM




• Hoshin, let me say this: I accede, unequivocally, that the Anthropic Principle is a valid argument. Certainly it is, and I have always thought it well worth my consideration. But there are other theories that render the Anthropic at least secondary, if nothing else. But again, I offer accession---because even though it is a highly philosophical argument, it merits itself as a scientifically investigatable one, at least insofar as we can investigate what "God" has intended. The Anthropic argument, therfore, cannot be discounted.
  
  Bass

  By bassman68, Aug 19 07 4:27 AM




• Bassman, The scripture you are referring to is Genesis 1:26. It says, "Then God said, "Let us make man in our own image, in our likeness..." The Hebrew word translated image here is tselem and it means shadow, which is not the same thing as a visual replica in appearance. The word translated likeness here is demut. It means function. I will give some ellucidation on it because it has a lot to offer if one evaluates the scripture's statement in terms of who we are. Premise: God set out to create a race of beings that could relate to him. Therefore, he made us in a reflection of his pattern (referred to as "we" in the scripture, he would not be a simple singular being). What is man composed of? A mind, a body and a spirit. This reflects our biblical belief that the Godhead is composed of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Speaking strictly of the creation of the Universe which we have been discussing: The Father is the Mind in which the Creation was conceived (the Hebrew word for father is Ab which ultimately means, source). The Son is Jesus (Yeshua) and is the body through which the words in God's mind were spoken. The Spirit is the Holy Spirit, the power by which the spoken words of God were carried out.The element of ouor being fashioned in God's function is obvious. Man was created to rule over the Earth even as God rules over all of Creation.
  
  do you know the scripture in Genesis Chapter 1 does not say man looks like God? It says God made man in his

  By Hoshin2, Aug 20 07 7:36 PM




• Please excuse the artifact.

  By Hoshin2, Aug 20 07 7:38 PM




• I have proclaimed that it is mathematically provable that the Bible was authored by God, or more precisely, that it was written by men who were moved along by God's Holy Spirit. I have given some proofs previously in this forum. However, we have not come to a point where you have been convinced, since you have just asserted that it is only the work of mere men. Now, I have been studying it in intricate detail for 20 years, along with the events of world history that surround it's stories. I have an educated opinion on it's content and would really like it if you would ask me any question you might have about it that has given you cause for such doubt. I of course, am not the foremost authority on the subject but I welcome the opportunity to provide insight to the extent I have been prepared for the task. My motivation is purely because I care, not only for the truth, but for those who seek it. I will say that I can give proof after proof after proof for pages and pages of this blog, describing statistical evidence for the Bible's authenticity as God's signature. However, to be more efficient, why don't you just tell me what it is that would convince you?

  By Hoshin2, Aug 20 07 9:46 PM




• Bassman AND Hoshin...you can argue all you want. As for trying to PROVE Jesus, we have said mostly all we can. But...FOR ANYBODY...it dosent matter how much we try to explain...the only way to decribe God is to have him explain himself. He is so big, I think he considers it an insult to have textbooks explain him. And He WILL Explain himself if you just let him. But for you to know him, he does require a sincere amount of respect. Bassman the only way you are going to KNOW for YOURSELF, is to get to an altar and try what we have told you. Repent, be baptized, and recieve the Holy Ghost. If you want to know who God is, He will prove himself. He just wants to know if you are willing to make the time to meet with him. Jesus isnt going to break into your soul like a thief. He stands at the door and knocks. This is your decision. But I will tell you this...if you dont open the door you are missing out. I find everyday I live with him is more exciting than before. Even my bad days have hope because I have someone to look up to, that has the control box for everything I go through. It dosent mean everything is Flowers and roses. But if it is, even flowers and roses have thorns. You just have to have faith and believe.

  By exceller, Aug 21 07 11:09 AM




• Moving away from the labratory disscusion, I like to imagine what Heaven will be. I know for most people they would say the streets of gold would be the most amazing feature. But when we get to heaven will the gold really matter? What we value so much will be the dirt on the highway...it will be worthless. And to think...those of us who arrive there will be given a crown of glory! The most beautiful we can imagine! But...once again...it will be worthless. Instead the Bible says the siants will hand it back to the one who is more valuable than the gold on the streets...Jesus. We shall be able to see him in power and glory! And instead of just looking at him...the Bible says he is our Heavenly Father. I would like to imagine a big hug from that Big Dad as he wipes the tears away. I wont be able to cry anymore because I will be singing! Singing the song of the saved, with millions of other people. And the angels...will just be able to watch. WE ARE VERY IMPORTANT TO GOD! The angels will not be able to sing that song, because they wont be able to sing what we have been through. They wont be able to say Jesus cared enough to DIE for humans that failed him at one time or another. I know if my best friend lets me down, or did something terrible, I want to slap them in the face, not give them a hug! Yet...Jesus looked beyond that and said...I want you to live with me forever! Can you imagine what you would do if some friend did something terrible to you, and you said Its okay! I love you, you can live in my house forever! No...I dont think I would do that, much less give my life.

  By exceller, Aug 21 07 3:20 PM




• Most of yall would laugh at the sight of a nine year old praying for her dog to get the Holy Ghost! But back then I didnt have very much. When you mentioned heaven back then...I hadnt even seen enough gold to even understand why it was important! I just wanted my dog, and a beautiful set of crayons that would never stop writing! I didnt understand why my parents smiled when everything was bad. Our greatest treasure was each other. Id like to think Heaven is just the same way. We will be so busy loving Jesus, we wont worry about what the past was! We wont even think about what the future is! We will be busy getting hugs from Our Father, and nothing else will matter. For when we have been there ten thousand years, bright shining as the sun, we have no less days to sing Gods praise, than when we first begun! It will be an eternal moment of reliving the experience we had when we FIRST met Jesus. Except this time the moment will never end.

  By exceller, Aug 21 07 3:21 PM




• I know when I see my friends that live far away, Im not myself. I just cry, because I know I will have to leave them again, and chances are slim of us reuniting. I guess since Jesus is my enteral friend, it owuld be the same way. I know he is always there, yet he is invisible. And people are always asking me, How can you do so much for someone you cant even see? How do you know he even cares? Or they will just tell me im crazy, I have a nice smile and the world is just BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD! I should wake up and smell the coffee attitude! But then again I get frustrated when thats all christians talk about! The world is just bad! Thats horrible to me! I cant just hang my head down and say Oooooh people are just so mean! Christians should be out there yelling their daylights out HEY I HAVE A FRIEND! HIS NAME IS JESUS! COME MEET HIM! And when they have a bad day...hey, Jesus cares! Yet when I see Jesus in heaven, its going to be a giant reunion with a friend who seemed so far away at points in my life, even though we were really close! I am not joyful because Im going to heaven...IM JOYFUL BECAUSE SOMEONE LOVES ME! And he does it even when I dont deserve it! Heaven is just the bonus, the overflow of loving a friend for my entire life!

  By exceller, Aug 21 07 3:38 PM




• This is a strange question...
  I got to wondering today about people always getting tired of being the same thing! I know this sounds kinda looney and all! Yes, I still have faith in Jesus! But I like to consider what ifs a lot. What if God got tired of being God? You know people always have problems and we are ringing on Gods doorbell nonstop! What if He got tired of placing the sun in the sky? What if He got tired of healing people? What if he got tired of fighting with the devil? What if His throne wasnt too compfy and He wanted to get a giant lazy boy recliner? What if He got tired of saving people who continually let him down? And what if He got tired of saving people at all?

  By exceller, Aug 23 07 3:13 PM




• If He did, now would be a good time to start screaming your head off, because the world would be truley ending! But thank God, Jesus is the same yesterday today and forever! Another thing about God, he is not only the god of the dead but the god of the living! We often see that phrase, "I am the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob". Notice he said "I am" not "I was". Jesus never changed! Now people...people are another story! We change all the time. And sometimes we do change for the worse..its only our human nature. But It gives me joy to think about when I change, Jesus is still as orginal as the day the earth was created! And Somebody that powerful, is willing to change my life to be more like him! I dont know about you guys...but thats reason enough to be excited about!

  By exceller, Aug 23 07 4:14 PM




• Can we scientifically prove that the Bible is written by God and that Jesus is the promised Messiah? Unequivocally, yes! The scriptures declared myriads of specific predictive prophecies of the coming Messiah, as written by various prophets from scattered communities over a period of 1000 years, which were fulfilled 500 years after they were recorded. As mentioned before, Jesus had to satisfy every one. In this example, let’s examine 17 specific Messianic prophecies. Next to each Old Testament prediction will be listed the corresponding probability of its chance occurrence.

  By Hoshin2, Aug 24 07 1:14 PM




• 1. Birth in Bethlehem from the Tribe of Judah (Micah 5:2; Genesis 49:10) – odds of 1 in 2,400.
  2. Preceded by a messenger (Isaiah 40:3) – odds of 1 in 20.
  3. Entrance into Jerusalem on a colt (Zechariah 9:9) – odds of 1 in 50. (Note: perhaps no other king in history ever entered his capitol on a colt. Jesus did on Palm Sunday, A.D. 32. Combined odds of these 3 prophecies occurring by chance are 2,400 x 20 x 50, or 1 in 2,400,000).
  4. Betrayal by a friend (Psalm 91:9) – odds of 1 in 10.
  5. His hands and feet would be pierced (Psalm 22:16) – odds of 1 in 100.
  6. Wounded by his enemies (Isaiah 53:5) – odds of 1 in 10.
  7. Betrayal for 30 pieces of silver (Zechariah 11:12) – odds of 1 in 50.
  8. Spit upon and beaten (Isaiah 50:6) – odds of 1 in 10.
  9. His betrayal money thrown into the temple and given to buy a potter’s field (Zechariah 11:13) (fulfilled in Matthew 27:5-7) – odds of 1 in 200.
  10. He would be silent before his accusers (Isaiah 53:7) – odds of 1 in 100.
  

  By Hoshin2, Aug 24 07 1:17 PM




• 11. Crucified with thieves (Isaiah 53:12) – odds of 1 in 100.
  12. People would gamble for his garments (Psalm 22:18) – odds of 1 in 100.
  13. His side would be pierced (Zechariah 12:10) – odds of 1 in 100.
  14. None of his bones would be broken (Psalm 34:20) – odds of 1 in 20.
  15. His body would not see decay (Psalm 16:10) – odds of 1 in 10,000.
  16. His burial in a rich man’s tomb (Isaiah 53:9) – odds of 1 in 100.
  17. The darkness covering the Earth (Amos 8:9) – odds of 1 in 1,000. (Note: this event was confirmed by a pagan historian in, “The Third History of Thallus,” who wrote of an unusual darkness that blotted out the sun for a number of hours at the time of the Passover in the year A.D. 32, the year of Christ’s crucifixion. It is absolutely impossible that this could have been an eclipse).
  

  By Hoshin2, Aug 24 07 1:18 PM




• The cumulative odds of all these 17 detailed specific prophecies being fulfilled by chance is found by multiplying the probabilities together. The result is: 1 chance in 480,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 or 1 chance in 480 billion x 1 billion x 1 billion. This is essentially comparable to filling the entire Milky Way Galaxy with sand and performing a random search with a blindfold on and finding one specific grain of sand in it on the first try. For reference, if you could travel at the speed of light, 187,000 miles per second, it would take 100,000 years to cross the galaxy. Obviously, this would be a completely impossible task.
  
  Please examine this as evidence of God’s authorship of the Bible and the authenticity of Jesus Christ of Nazareth’s claim to be the promised Messiah. Ask any question or bring up any reasonable argument you may have and I’ll try to respond. I look forward to your discussion.
  

  By Hoshin2, Aug 24 07 1:18 PM




• Wow Hoshin. Wow. You remind me of my math teacher. Strange with numbers. However some of that stuff is understandable. But I think the best proof that Jesus is who he says he is, is the experience of the Holy Ghost. True...it is sad to say many people dont believe either yours or my explainations (MY HEAD STILL HURTS FROM ALL THOSE NUMBERS!!!...but Im ok). And as far as math or science goes I guess that would be your level of expertise. But history can prove a few things too: (to be continued below)

  By exceller, Aug 25 07 1:21 AM




• Namely, if you were crucified, chances are you are gonna yell, and once you died you were still...how should I put this...brutally treated to make sure you were dead. So it is logical that they would pierce his side. In fact that was a common test to make sure you were dead. Historically most of the people who died by crucifixtion were not even given the honor of a tomb much less to have their bones in perfect condition. The tomb and guards with it WERE MOST CERTAINLY NOT given to people that were executed in that manner. Crucifixtion was reserved for the worst crimminals and traitors in the country. Once the crosses were used they were taken apart and set aside for the next execution in the same state they were in (blood and everything). Romans took full measure to make sure it was the worst death possible. They never sanded the cross down to make it as smooth as the ones we place in churches for decoration. What is EXTRAORDINARY...is the natural disasters that happened when Jesus gave up the ghost. An earthquake, the darkness, raising of dead saints, and the temple curtain ripping COULD ONLY BE DONE BY GOD. I have never heard of an execution where somebody else came back from the dead as soon as the crimminal died. If you have it was off of a spook movie or spook book, because God is the only one who can put life into a body. While those things you mentioned above have the POSSIBILITY of happening to someone other than Jesus, it is HIGHLY UNLIKELY that ALL OF THEM would come true for one man...an innocent man. But with God all things are possible.

  By exceller, Aug 25 07 1:21 AM




• I reread my post and decided to explain...
  
  Soilders would sometimes pierce the side of crucified individual. If water and blood came out then it was a sign they were truely dead.
  
  Most of the time they wouldnt take the extra time. A person crucified could still be living EVEN AFTER that long exposed death. So...they would take a hammer and smashed the vicitms legs. That way if they had survived there was no chance of them getting up again.
  
  Jesus and the two thieves with him were taken down EARLY, due to complaints by the priest that such a bloody deed shouldnt be displayed on the Passover. Normally the bodies would rot up there for days. But priests wanted to take the precaution of not making themselves "unclean". I find that pretty ironic! They took measure to be "clean" but really it was their fault Jesus was murdered!
  
  Since the soliders did the "spear test" on Jesus, they saw no need to break his legs, thus fullfilling scripture. It is possible that the two theives were not so lucky!
  
  I am amazed at how many people think Jesus was the last one to die on a cross. Sadly no...Romans did it to many people after him..including the apostle Peter who was crucified upside down! But if the blood of Jesus forgives sins...and the cross was RE-USED for the next person...think of how many people came in contact with it! It could have been the worst crimminal, but once they came in contact with the blood, they had touched Jesus. I would like to think it forgave their sins as well! Its something I have on my long list of things to ask people when I get to heaven! Unfourtunatly my curiousity will have to wait!

  By exceller, Aug 25 07 2:05 PM




• Historically there is also proof in Jesus Christ's blood line and ancestry that is very interesting too. However I cant explain it very well and Hoshin is going to have to back me up on this one.

  By exceller, Aug 25 07 7:11 PM




• Hoshin can you tell us whay you know about the genology (aH! I cant even spell it!)...BLOOD LINE OF CHRIST? (There we go! Finally got a way of avoiding that big word!)

  By exceller, Aug 25 07 9:04 PM




• Hi, it's up to you what you choose to belive. There are some that choose to belive in christ and, some belive that God didn't create us! I belive we were put on this earth for a reason, and that reason is to serve God, and teach others about him. Belive what you want it's your choice! See Ya

  By iluvDwade3, Aug 26 07 3:42 PM




• I guess I am a bit weird! I love the "begat" chapters of Jesus' Bloodline! To me its interesting how many unsung heros are in it! Jesus' bloodline is full of people who chose to serve God! I dont think they really knew that someday maybe their great great great great great great grandchild would be the parents of the Messiah they had been hearing about for years! Its also interesting that even Jesus' bloodline fufilles its own prophecies! But some of those people had to have faith. They had to keep believing that God was who he said he was even when the entire nation turned its back on God. And some of the women in Jesus bloodline were foreigns (people hated because they were not of the chosen race the Jews). Rahab was a harlot, but she chose to turn her life around and serve the One true God. Ruth was a moabitiess. But yet BY TOTAL CHANCE...she came in contact with a family who served the one true God, and ended up giving her entire life to his hands! Her grandson was David. Although some of the people you never hear about..if you look at history some of their generations went through some severe things because nobody else believed in God. I think its a Hall of Faith all by itself.

  By exceller, Aug 26 07 7:46 PM




• I may be able to accept the predictions, but when did bookies assign odds to each happening? Your figure only works if the probabilities are scientifically worked out and yours appear to have been chosen at random.

  By satguru, Aug 29 07 11:25 AM




• Uh oh.....
  
  

  By bassman68, Aug 29 07 2:06 PM




• Satguru - The key word you used in your observation is APPEAR. I didn't include excruciating detail because the concept is burdensome to most and I aimed this to both the scientific mind and the layman. That is precisely the reason I invited questions. I have more to say about how the probabilities are assigned on each prediction and the probabilities chosen are, I think, quite conservative, which is the proper way to err in something as indefinite as this. I'm glad someone was interested enough to bring that up. I'll divulge more of the thinking process here in the next few days. A Bookie! LOL!

  By Hoshin2, Aug 29 07 5:10 PM




• I didnt answer your post on the odds, hoshin, because i was trying to find a way to assess their accuracy. I am a long way from being anything close to being a mathematician, and I have to admit I was stymied. I make it a point not to ever offer refutation just for the sake of such, and I had, indeed, run into a brick wall of sorts, so you had me...for a while. I live near the campus of the University of South Carolina, and I was planning on approaching the math department there to see if one of the graduate students, or some of the graduate students, would be willing to tackle it for me..after all, math whizzes live for that sort of thing. I probably will still do that, because my curiousity is piqued. But one thing did sort of jump out at me, though:
  
  Statistic no. 15, that "his body would not see decay." Shouldnt the odds of this be much much higher than 1 in 10,000---especially in his day--cremation being mostly accidental and all? I mean, everyone else on the entire planet's body should have known decay. I mean, since not everybody can be transmogrified and whisked off to heaven, shouldn't it have been more like 1 in whatever the human population was at that time?

  By bassman68, Aug 29 07 6:20 PM




• you two have set the stage perfectly for some elucidation on the thought processes in selecting the probabilities assigned for these predictions. I think I can at least show you that it was not randomly but logically done and perhaps you will agree that the value selected was conservative in every case. Bass, I will present the predictions and the odds in order to reduce confusion. You have hit on what is likely the most unusual prediction and you have made a valid statement that I will cover when I reach 15. Isn't this fun?

  By Hoshin2, Aug 29 07 9:01 PM




• Hoshin: When you sit very, very quietly...and you are very, very still. When there is no thought, no action, no desire...when there is only pure consciousness engaged in pure, unfettered observation. When you are empty of all, when there is only the essence of you observing, free from all else---tell me: who or what a that point do you think it is that is doing the observing?
  
  Bass

  By bassman68, Aug 30 07 7:51 AM




• And what, do you think, is meant by "Nirvana?"

  By bassman68, Aug 30 07 3:56 PM




• I think my soul by definition, is doing the observing. The long and short of it is, there is no specific me. My awareness covers more than one point of view and my mental concept of who "I" am. Nirvana is intended to mean being enlightened. I understand that concept and I believe that true enlightenment ought to be equated with obedience to God according to His revealed knowledge.

  By Hoshin2, Aug 30 07 11:53 PM




• assignment of the odds: 1st prediction - 1. Birth in Bethlehem from the Tribe of Judah (Micah 5:2; Genesis 49:10) – odds of 1 in 2,400. There were 12 tribes in Israel yet he was born of the one Moses predicted 1500 years earlier. Therefore, the odds were 12 to 1 that Moses would have guessed the right tribe. There were over 2,000 villages and towns in the tribe of Judah in Christ's day. However, to be conservative, the odds of 1 in 2,400 were used to estimate the chances of someone guessing he would be born in Bethlehem and that he would descend from Judah centuries before Jesus was born.

  By Hoshin2, Aug 31 07 12:03 AM




• 2. Preceded by a messenger – odds of 1 in 20. Only assigned 1 in 20 although no other king in history ever preceded by a messenger like John The Baptist.
  3. Entrance into Jerusalem on a colt – odds of 1 in 50. Only king in history recorded to enter his capital on a colt so again, a conservative probability.
  4. Betrayal by a friend – odds of 1 in 10. Although it is not unusual for a secular king to be betrayed by a close associate, the betrayal of a religious leader is quite unusual historically. However, conservatively, the odds were chosen at 1 in 10.

  By Hoshin2, Aug 31 07 9:25 PM




• 6. Wounded by his enemies - odds of 1 in 10. Throughout history, most kings who were killed were murdered suddenly. Very few were ever subjected to torture as was inflicted on Jesus Christ. The odds of this occurring by chance were less than 1 in 10.
  7. Betrayal for 30 pieces of silver – odds of 1 in 50. This assignment is extremely conservative. Consider how impossible it would be for someone to correctly predict 500 years in advance the exact price of betrayal that would be paid for the death of a future king.
  8. Spit upon and beaten – odds of 1 in 10. Although many kings throughout history were killed, very few were tormented, beaten and ridiculed. Therefore, 1 in 10 should easily be considered to be conservative.
  9. His betrayal money thrown into the temple and given to buy a potter’s field – odds of 1 in 200. This is an intricate prophesy that was exactly fulfilled despite seeming contradictory. Judas threw the money into the temple. Later the priests used the money to buy a potter's field to bury strangers, including Judas who hanged himself. 1 in 200 is clearly very conservative.
  10. He would be silent before his accusers – odds of 1 in 100. It is extremely abnormal not to defend ourselves, especially if a man is completely innocent. Surely, the odds are much higher than the 1 in 100 chosen.

  By Hoshin2, Aug 31 07 9:40 PM




• As tedious as this has been, I will just mention the one remaining prediction that I got a response about. Prediction 15 - His body would not see decay - odds of 1 in 10,000. Obviously, the odds against anyone dying and their body not decaying, but later rising from the dead are astronomical. However, the estimate of only 1 in 10,000 takes into account that several individuals were resurrected in the Old Testament such as the Shunammite widow's son raised by Elisha, and a few in the New Testament, such as Lazarus.

  By Hoshin2, Sep 01 07 11:56 AM




• Thats pretty cool. But what were our odds of having God come down in the flesh and walk among us at all? If it had not been for love, probaly none. But like an artist whose work has been vandalized, God was grieved when sin destroyed his creation, and would not let any one but himself fix it. Fixing the damage meant a pure sacrifice. God was the only one pure to do it and He did it for us.

  By exceller, Sep 02 07 12:33 AM




• Some people take in consideration...if God loved us so much, why didnt he fix everything on the cross. He CHOSE not to. If you think about it...if everything was made perfect on the cross then why in the world would we need to live for him if we had no need for him? Needs bring us to Jesus. Sometimes even the best of us need a hard kick in the pants. When things are perfect we like to put everything in our control. When things are not going smooth, we come running to Jesus, because we need a higher power to fix our problems. Hpwever no matter how many needs we have, needs may bring us to Jesus, but only love is the superglue. Its a shame to find out some people are only Christians for the benefit plans, but walk out when the best is right in front of them. They come back and start the same cycle. But for those of us that stay at the side of Jesus, great is the reward. I hate to break it to ya honey but we dont have to wait to get to heaven. We can enjoy somethings in life here, and dance just as hard when good things happen! But strength comes when bad things happen and we CHOSE to serve Jesus no matter what. Thats true love, and its also life. Jesus is more than an insurance company or statistic...He is real, and he is a friend.

  By exceller, Sep 02 07 12:41 AM




• A sad farwell to Hoshin! Hes no longer on funtrivia anymore. :( But you can still read his blog. Hopefully he will come back!

  By exceller, Sep 03 07 9:49 AM




• Sometimes I have to clarify the meaning of the word friend for myself. There are times when I want to slap my friends up on the head or give them a good kick in the pants...LOL. But its also something to think about. True friends are not always sugar and roses. Sometimes they can be very hard on each other. To me Jesus is more than a friend, because he never leaves and I dont have to worry about him giving up on me (though sometimes I wonder...its not very easy to have a friend like me around...lol...couple of my buddies from real life are figuring that out right now.) I once heard reality is like medicing. You can be on cloud nine and the bottom fall out. But friendship is like a roller coaster...you get the most response AND fun when the thing takes off for a curve or a dip. So when I nearly run over one of my friends in the parking lot because he is stupid enough to stand too close to the space and I cant drive a car very well...patience is a virtue. But I have to admitt, its fun to share each others burden...especially when they carry your books and backpack for you into the school, and you get to walk in with nothing but sunglasses and a purse.

  By exceller, Sep 03 07 11:10 AM




• Continued....
  
  Friends have a way of letting you take the center stage, when you know you are not the important one who should be taking the spotlight. They stand behind the curtain while you jump up and down screaming you made the best speech ever! But when you trip, they are there for a hug. True friendship is like looney toones for me. But even someone as serious as God has a sense of humor. The emotional thing of that is, he had humor when he was dying on a cross. Somewhere in all that was a smile because he knew I would be here someday, 2000 years later...and he knew someone had to ride in the car because the angels are too scared to every morning I drive to school! So he might as well be immortal. I would have a hard time trusting a God that couldnt even stand to ride in the same car with me. But if life is a highway, Jesus is the map! You wont get lost without him. :)

  By exceller, Sep 03 07 11:10 AM




• Sorry to see hoshin go, not sure why, and I only came across him on this thread.
  Bassman and Hoshin I think are the first two people here to mention enlightenment apart from me, and understand it (which I struggle with). I started a thread on it in the chat boards ages ago in general but probably lost by now, but maybe a new one would be worth trying if enough people would be interested.

  By satguru, Sep 07 07 10:04 AM




• Yes Hoshin will be very missed. I think its safe to say that he was the energy behind this blog. But cheer up! We still have bassman68 and drivemecrazy, along with several others! Lots of fun people here!

  By exceller, Sep 09 07 1:19 PM




• Yesterday was a very quiet day for me. I have had people in my life that are "missing", because they were not able to stay around for my life. Yesterday would have been the birthday of a brother I never knew. I find myself wondering what it would have been like if he was alive, while my parents knew him only for a short while. He was born almost a year before me, but died a month later. I was supposed to have been born on his birthday the next year, but knowing me I always have to be unpredictable and different. I have never lost anyone dear to me that I knew. The closest I have come to that are goodbyes to friends who live far away. Hoshin once told me that people in heaven watch us very closely. He used the scripture refrence of "Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses..." (Hebrews 12:1)Then My mom asked me a question the other day, "Do you think he (my brother) cares when he is in heaven?" Im not sure how I would feel if my brother was watching me type this note right now. He was our familys "missing" person, whom we would try to predict what he could have been. There have been times when I wish I had a brother because I am an only child. I personally would slap him if I knew he was watching me while I watched my family go through tearing moments. There always seems to be that 'why couldnt you care to stay around' feeling when someone dies. More people come into the lives of people left behind, but its strange to say that their are bonds that form beyonds persons death to people they never knew.

  By exceller, Sep 09 07 1:44 PM




• Everyonce in a while I pull out my brothers baby book, and ask questions of why he wasnt there for me if he was such a wonderful person. I have grown attached to a person I have never known. The dead cant feel anything in their coffins, but they still change lives beyond the grave. Its a very scary thought that I spent my "quiet day" pondering. Yet as simple as it is, it continues to live on. People never truely die if I am to believe some things I observe or hear. They covered themselves with an invisible mask named "death" only to be revealed on the day Jesus come back. For the moment I just scribble questions in my mind to ask them when I evetually meet them for the first time.

  By exceller, Sep 09 07 1:44 PM




• Thanks Kiddo, it's been a joy to read your posts here (and in my notes too, lol).
  
  I agree that it's sad that Chris/Hoshin had to leave for now. But he always seems to bounce back...who knows...
  
  Jo.

  By drivemecrazy, Sep 09 07 1:46 PM




• Drive....somebody has to save the world from boring mailbox notes here on funtrivia, and it might as well be.......ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HA HA! Being different can be explosive when put together with my personality! ;)

  By exceller, Sep 09 07 2:19 PM




• LOL.

  By bassman68, Sep 09 07 3:17 PM




• Sometimes I do wonder what future really means. I never seem to fully reach it. Right now I am getting ready to jump a hurdle. Others laugh at me for not ready to get out of school and get on with life. I sink in the moments sadly at my desk, thinking all this will end soon. Soon I will have to learn leaving people is apart of life, there is no turning back. Smart for my age I have been isolated from many things, but have achieved great victories not even the honor graduates themselves were able to acomplish. Making straight As is not everything. Life is full of leaving things behind. When I meet my close friends who live far away I have to work hard not to cry, because all this has an end. There is always a smile on my face, but lately no one understands hidden tears. A hard concept of life is there is no pause button. Staying like a child when I am expected to be an adult handicaps me. Future is shaky. Inside I hate parking a car or even driving it as much as I may joke around...because if I am old enough to be behind the wheel Im not a kid anymore...I have adult responsiblities. Grabbing for the past is like chasing after the wind. All you get is a hand full of air. Somehow I dont know myself. But when the moment comes I will know what to do. Graduate pictures are tommorrow. I must decide whether a smile would be a lie. On the other hand the adult in me says I am foolish and years later I will smile. Life is like a novel...you never see the entire picture until the end.

  By exceller, Sep 10 07 5:32 PM




• Then the only thing left materially will be the morals we to live on in other people, and the coffin full of bones. I have only been through two graveyards of that contained family members. We traveled for miles to see them. Beneath the suken mound and moldy stone there is a story. The person on the outside has no idea what life they are looking at summarized by the dates and a dash. That dash is everthing the person went through and lived through highlighted by the laughs and tears. To me it may be a long ways away. But it doesnt stop me from thinking about what my story will be. Life is not something I can write down on a piece of paper and say thats the way it is. Its the story of perserverance, struggle, and the final race.

  By exceller, Sep 10 07 5:32 PM




• I beleive that after we go on we spend time in a"purgatory" in which our lives are reviewed and where we must atone for the lifes we live,as there are the tales of the "white light" there is also the tales of souls who wander the earth,ghosts, and spirits who linger on.but when that time is served,I beleive then, you are able to spend eternity at the part of your life when you were happiest without that time never ending.
  I also contemplate this idea of parralel lives and worlds.follow me on this for a moment.have you ever dreamed and your surrondings were so familiar and everything seemed the way it should except yourself? by this I mean you were in a proffesion or a social class oppposite of the one your in now? that there is a moment of disorientation and apprehnsion,the feeling of not belonging but yet it vanishes and everything seems as normal as possible,I wonder if we do have a mirror self in another dimension and when we have these dreams is it that a window has opened and briefly allowed us in to see their life as it would them to see ours.
  

  By wer111, Sep 12 07 10:44 AM




• Yes I have had moments like that wer111. But then again, when I go to sleep Im basically reliving a continuation of the day I had. If you love a place long enough, your mind gets the hint that that is what relaxes you.
  
  
  Yes I think your idea of parallel worlds could exists. Its sounds very interesting.
  
  

  By exceller, Sep 13 07 6:41 PM




• As for the white light at the end of the tunnel, death is a trasition. Some people view things we cannot see before they are no longer apart of the world we know. White light at the end of the tunnel is only one of MANY things a person could visualise. While some of that may have something to do with spiritual, humans have a tendency of reliving what people tell them. Say for instance Mac (I just made up a name) has a car wreck, nearly dies. He has heard about what eternity might be like, so its the first thing that pops into his mind when he thinks he is going to die. Its part of the nature that people expect what is going to happen, even though it may not be really there. Some experiences are really hard to put in that category. Death is like birth, not everyone has the same entry or exit, just similar experiences.

  By exceller, Sep 13 07 6:44 PM




• Pardon the first typo....transition*

  By exceller, Sep 13 07 7:25 PM




• I guess the Mega Blog has finally run it's course and I'm pleased that I get to make the 200th post to it. I have it on good authority that it is probably the most successful blog to date in FT and I'm proud of that. Thanks to everyone who posted here. It's been a privilege to read what you all think.
  
  I've had many notes, asking when was I going to post a response and what did I think, well here goes...
  
  The Blog swiftly moved away from the questions that I asked at the begining and became, for me anyway, a war between Religion and Science.
  
  Everyone in their own way, seemed to be trying to find a reason for living and, more importantly, a peacful place to go when their end is near. It also seems in our own way, that we are all looking for THE ONE.
  
  Well, I've read and re-read my Blog. Throughout, there is a constant word and that is THINK.
  
  I've always THOUGHT that we make Heaven and Hell in our own mind. That we all THINK we know who is our own maker.
  
  It's a fact that WE create things as we go along, nature does the rest. I'm begining to believe that WE are the ONE, or, is Mother Nature the ONE? Who knows...
  
  Thanks again.
  
  Jolie. xxx

  By drivemecrazy, Sep 26 07 7:13 PM




• What terrible thing have I done?

  By bassman68, Sep 27 07 10:04 PM




• Could it be that we are looking for answers in the wrong places? What if the answers are really quite simple? What if our assumption about the answers being so convoluted and inexplicable they have transcended our ability to understand them is false? What If, on the contrary, the answers are so unpretentious and elegant; we look right past them? What if, for example, while we’re scanning the cosmos with our deep space listening stations and telescopes, the answers exist on a speck of dust perched on the lens of the telescope we’re looking through?

  By _Morpheus_, Oct 24 07 2:10 PM




• Morpheus: I find your post very, very interesting...please sir---go further?
  
  Bass

  By bassman68, Oct 24 07 9:49 PM




• Good day Mr. Bass, since you are asking me to reveal my beliefs and knowledge, first answer a few questions about your beliefs and knowledge. Please be as brief as possible. First, do you believe in ETI (aliens)? Second, Do you believe in a creator? Next, what is the total energy in the universe? Lastly, why does disorder increase with time? Please answer these questions from your current beliefs and knowledge. Thanks for your time and honesty.
  ?

  By _Morpheus_, Oct 25 07 10:22 AM




• Firstly, I am not so anthropocentric as to believe even for a second that this vast, vast universe is created for the human race to exist in one infinitesimal part of it---so, yes, I do believe that there are living beings in the cosmos. As far as a "creator" is concerned, I do believe in not "a being" as creator, per se, but it is more to me that Being itself is the creative force. The total energy of the universe is, essentially, zero. Because all positive entities (and I'm talking the basic particles that are the stuff all is made on) have exact and existent negative particles as their counterparts, they all balance each other out, and the mathematical representation for such a perfect balance would be an equation that would solve to zero. This is counter-intuitive and completely unacceptable to most people, because that would mean that everything is made of, essentially, nothing.
  
  Now, for your question on thermodynamic entropy, one of the main culprits would be thermal radiation. Since any moving or dynamic entity would require some energy to facilitate that dynamism, the energy used for it cannot be retained after it has been used. Since energy is what is needed to create bonds, cohesion, movement (order) then its bleeding of by that very dynamism would represent a loss of that order..or simply, it's disorder. (Oh, and I think that the question on thermodynamic entropy is flawed at a fundamental level because time is an illusion.)
  
  Hope that was brief enough, and of sufficient explicative value for you to now answer my post.
  
  Bass

  By bassman68, Oct 26 07 3:29 AM




• I thank you Mr. Bass for your participation in this discussion. I realize my request may have seemed peculiar to you and for this I apologize but I required baseline information from which to "go further". What is absolutely essential to make sense of our world is clear unfettered mind. The questions I asked were carefully chosen. The first two were to understand the basis and logic behind your beliefs. The next two, while superficially complex, were quite simple, assuming a basic grasp of physics. What was most important was the ability to state clearly and succinctly your replies. Which is, of course, an indication of a clear and unfettered mind. First of all, let me say you seem to be a person who loves knowledge and discourse. However in answering my queries you have opened up several cans of worms. I won't comment on the first two questions because they are deeply personal in nature. The next two questions could have been answered like this. "Total engery of the universe" Negative gravitational energy exactly cancels the positive energy represented by matter. So the total energy of the universe is zero. The next question was a little tricky. "Why does disorder increase with time." Disorder increases with time because we measure time in the direction in which disorder increases.
  I respect your intelligience and love for discourse and I might "go further".
  But I don't want to get wrapped around the axel in a wandering discussion. Thanks again, for your participation and thoughtful replies.
  

  By _Morpheus_, Oct 26 07 8:03 AM




• Wandering discussion? I tried to be as succinct as possible...and surely "wandering discussion" cannot be equivalent to "not answering as you would." I could have simply answered that there is no such thing as time, therefore, choas cannot increase with what does not exist. So I thank you, Morpheus, for at least you attention.
  
  Bass

  By bassman68, Oct 26 07 10:01 AM




• Absolutely no problem. Thanks for clarifying dude. As for the name, Morpheus. I picked it up from the Matrix movies. I was clueless about where it originated. But I thought, since I was taking it as an alias, I ought to check. Low and behold, in ancient Gnosticism Morpheus was the Revealer. How about them apples?
  Oh, by the way I suffer from the same misinterpretations....lol
  To the owner of this blog sorry for being off topic...I might actually get back on the topic at some point...lol

  By _Morpheus_, Oct 26 07 3:20 PM




• Don't worry..the owner is quite liberal about these things.
  
  Bass

  By bassman68, Oct 26 07 8:33 PM




• Good morning Mr. Bass. The question about an after life is really part of a much larger dynamic or so I've resolved in my mind. So it should be OK.
  If I could ask just one more question Mr. Bass? This question is relative to your "I think....time is an illusion" statement. Would it be accurate to say that your beliefs and knowledge are from a metaphysical perspective?

  By _Morpheus_, Oct 27 07 10:05 AM




• "To the owner of this blog sorry for being off topic"
  
  That's fine Morpheus, I did think that your first post was going to lead to an interesting discussion. However, you intimate that may not be the case. A shame.
  
  I've taken the liberty of deleting the irrelevant posts here. No offense meant.
  
  An observation if I may, in reference to the deleted posts...you know, to be clever is a wonderful thing and I admire that greatly. To think that you are being clever, is not a trait that is liked by anyone at all.
  
  Jo.

  By drivemecrazy, Oct 28 07 6:47 AM




• I think metaphysical would be very close, Morpheus...yes.
  
  Bass

  By bassman68, Nov 01 07 12:54 PM




• Good morning Mr. Bass. After the owner’s inaccurate and unpleasant personal observation, I have lost my appetite for posting here. Here is a glimpse of where I was going with the thread.
  Currently our universe is described in terms of two partial theories - the general theory of relativity and quantum mechanics. Unfortunately, these two governing theories do not intersect in application. They cannot both be right. The could both be wrong.
  With the current physical theories, we are only bounded by our minds and the event horizon.
  What if……
  Another day perhaps, Mr. Bass.
  

  By _Morpheus_, Nov 03 07 7:05 AM




• The ozzman cometh.

  By bassman68, Nov 05 07 8:07 PM




• Hey Guys! I know I have not been on here in a long time. And I know that I usually just ramble. Im no scientist as you can tell.
  
  But I had to go to a funeral about a week ago. It made me think as I was trying not to step on a gravestone at the graveside service and ended up getting my high heels stuck in a sticker patch.(and yes it did hurt)
  
  Somethings are kept secret for many reasons we dont know. But if a funeral is a celebration of what was....its got to be the only occasion where the person is not there to celebrate with the family.
  
  Death is one of those mixed situations where you dont know what it feels like...and when you do its all a huge secret.
  
  I wasnt really paying attention during the funeral....it was such a pretty day I just wanted to smile...but well it was a funeral. Even in a cemetary, there is life. I kept imagining all these peoples stories. They are not active at the moment (unless its halloween)....not everyone knows them.....and they all have some sort of honor.
  
  Death isnt really a situation where anybody rests in peace. Its a huge secret that humans dont know the answer to... One day We shall know...but we wont be able to tell the rest of the world what we discovered.

  By exceller, Nov 18 07 5:58 PM




• Geniune and insightful words exceller. I just wanted to acknowledge you, not start a discussion.

  By _Morpheus_, Nov 20 07 9:42 AM




• Thank You Morpheus. :)
  
  You dont have to discuss this if you dont want to. Im just thinking. ( I hope drive doesnt mind)
  
  I dunno...sometimes I think there are other things more powerful than death. Its not rocket science.
  
  Someone once told me that in a funeral all the people who were touched by a life come together....well not always. Sometimes the story hasnt stopped being read...and there are observers that begin a lesson where one ended. Its a very odd thing to get to know someone through death...but it does happen.
  
  If honor is a marker stone, and a sunken piece of earth with sticker and burr patches on the side (that some kultz will step into)...how more powerful is life?
  

  By exceller, Nov 20 07 4:14 PM




• Death does not preserve a persons story....just dead men's bones.
  
  Yet at a funeral you can see life beyond a person's untimely goodbye.
  
  People who knew the person will keep passing on their memories...the Observers will take a lesson that has escaped the grave.
  
  The most common observers are found at the funeral...they come to support their friends who are dealing with the grief. No one likes to leave pain without some pain killer involved.
  
  Observers are not always found right away...but the story affects them too as they read it by seeing who and what the deceased person had changed. The story becomes something to learn from....something they take to heart in their own lives. And the Dead mans story lives again. No one man or body will ever be completly put to rest. If they are....we are missing something.
  

  By exceller, Nov 20 07 4:24 PM




• Life never dies.
  
  (drive...I hope you dont mind...)
  
  As a christian I believe that Jesus IS Life.
  
  Jesus himself proclaimed,"I am the way the truth and the life: no man cometh unto the Father but by me" (John 14:6)
  
  Jesus may have borrowed a tomb for a while....but as his enemies discovered....you cant kill Life.
  
  Death is the result of sin...
  "For the wages of sin is death: but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ Our Lord"
  (Romans 6:32)
  
  Death was the result of mans imperfection.
  
  Life is found in Jesus who is perfection. He will never die.
  Jesus said, "I am he that liveth, and was dead and behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen, and have the keys of hell and death"
  
  Jesus conquered death when he rose from the grave.
  Jesus said, "Verily, Verily I say unto thee, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life." (John 7:47)
  
  
  
  I dont know why we all must live life's course. But I do know that I have a hope...and so does everyone that puts their faith in those words. Sometimes a persons ending is more powerful than their words...it is their last and final accomplishment on earth.
  
  However you believe or not, Life will ultimately overcome death. We may not be able to see it ...but ultimatley it will.
  

  By exceller, Nov 20 07 5:01 PM




• Experiences can be special and can be private. To not add confusion to others lives I am choosy about sharing details. Beleive.

  By Ashmancometh, Mar 25 08 11:43 PM




• I thought the original question had to do with NDE's. What does that have to with science? How does it disprove and religious person experience? Why do studies show more people raised at some point in a faith, ot those comming to a faith may be more likely to have an experience? Is it possible one of no religious faith may have no religious experience? Why does a sould have to consist of energy? Most our universe is dark matter. Seems to me that is scientific proof of nothing existing alongside energy. Most textbooks today say the universe is 98% dark matter, that is dense nothingness. Nirvana is a state of consciousness, why does science not try as hard to disprove other religions? Why is science afraid to argue its own contradictions? If you have no soul, don't woory, you may never have an experience. But I can still never argue something or someone never changed your mind beyond that only based in reason, and reason has been changing since the earliest recordings of man. Man has a documented history of at least 5,000 years, and still science woun't doubt the validity of Darwin's borrowed and expounded on origins for life. Ha! Kind of funny. I go to the zoo to see a monkey and can safely say nest year it will still be a monkey. And do they not have good motivation to get up and, evenly slowly, change and walk away? But what does THAT have to do with an NDE? Nothing. You either had one, have not yet, or likely never will.

  By Ashmancometh, Apr 14 08 6:07 PM




• Exscuse the typos please in my ciphered message. Long hours preping for finals, too much caffeine, not enough sleep and my secretary will be put forward into the rotating knives.

  By Ashmancometh, Apr 14 08 6:11 PM




• Hey Ashman,if you scroll to the top of the page you will see there are actually four questions to this blog! NDE just kind of popped into the equation.

  By LyrA2, Apr 15 08 7:27 AM




• I am referring to all the posts I read and then giving my opinion to the original post by the blogger, but thank you....I read all 220 posts (twice).

  By Ashmancometh, Apr 18 08 6:55 PM




• Most of the questions that I asked, when I posted my Blog, I knew that no-one could really answer. I had my own ideas, but, wanted to see if people would take the time, to give a view of their own thoughts. Incredible response. This Blog, seems to go to sleep for a while, then someone finds it, wakes it up and poses new ideas and questions.
  
  Ash: I've tried to give you an answer to your first question. You've actually picked up, on the only question that I posted, that could eventually have a possible answer to it. Your question, What does NDE have to with science? is about the only one that science might, in the future, be able give an answer to.
  
  Science does have a part in NDE, as it actually has the living being to work with. I've read loads now, covering all the issues I posted. The thing about NDE that I find interesting, is it's possible link to sleep...specifically REM. I'm sorry to say, that I'm not so technically charged as most of the people that have taken the time to post here. So here is a link to some research that I found very interesting. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12274186/
  
  There are many more that follow this train of thought...but this link explains it in the most simple form...written just for me, I would suspect. :)
  
  Thanks for taking the time to read the Bloggy Thingy twice, it must have taken you ages!
  
  Jo.

  By drivemecrazy, Apr 21 08 6:48 AM




• I believe that I stated 100 or so posts ago that I was trying to make light of this subject. I am rapidly approaching the point where I can answer the questions posted factually. I will add any people to the list who want my findings...after I finally close my eyes. I have that special computer that works on the Deathernet. It will come through as d-mail.
  Religion, these days is such a touchy subject. Statements made as simple conversation, repeatedly blow into arguments and wars. Once we accept the fact that there is one 'Head Honcho,' no matter what his/her name, the better off this world will be. Opinions of what happens to us and our 'souls' will NEVER be answered definitively.

  By maskman22, Apr 21 08 4:32 PM




• Im wandering into this post again...trying to think or not think. We just got a call about ten minutes ago that a family friend died. She was a nice woman that knew me as a toddler, and was one of the first people we met when we moved to our current town. Her grandson and I grew up together, got in trouble together, and felt the wooden spoon from her together (for driving a truck and wrecking a mailbox by standing on top of each other when we were five and four, to playing superman and missing the roof)It seems strange to see that Im not as old as people that look back on years and years of experiences with people that pass away, but Im young, and have started to learn a lesson I wasnt looking forward to. People Ive known, or that knew me before I could know them, are gone...some went out suffering...some left peacefully...to return to dust, till a greater future. Seems so strange...just ten years of expericences that I retained...and look back thinking it has not been that long...yet they are gone. Smiling faces reduced to a gold plaque near some flowers...."In memory of"....their family members that decided death breaks a link between friends...fake flowers pulled up from a grave to line a memory garden by a widows house...a song to remember those that were known....rain to remind people of the tears...sunshine to bring a thought of hope...what warm, but cold memories.

  By exceller, Apr 28 08 9:43 PM




• How would some people here describe soul? What might bring on an experience of another side, what might pull us back and what might keep us here after we are gone. Maybe it is just me that see these as related topics. Thanks, drivemecrazy, this topic drives me crazy. Still here, still pondering the etheral mist of this ever evasive, hard to pin down, just on the tip of my tongue, come out all wrong answer.
  
  Coffee anyone?

  By Ashmancometh, Jul 19 08 1:50 AM




• Life after death, wishful thinking we humans have.

  By geezabit, Sep 19 08 2:59 PM




• *I've always THOUGHT that we make Heaven and Hell in our own mind. That we all THINK we know who is our own maker.*
  
  There you go, David, once again it all comes down to our thinking, whether it be for good, or bad. Unfortunately, thinking things through, doesn't make it any better, more often than not. Does it?
  
  Jo.

  By drivemecrazy, Sep 19 08 4:34 PM




• Have you found that answer you want, yet? Question, do you think subconsciously you know the answer for your own self? Just asking.
  
  P.S. Nice new pic of the eyes, ie. the window to the soul. Read some John Donne poems or Marvell.

  By Ashmancometh, Jan 06 09 1:34 AM




• IMHO, we're born, we live, we die. The "now" is all we know for sure. The future is uncertain with no guarantee; even the past can play tricks. For myself, I try to make each moment count for something, and to try to leave this place a little better than I found it.

  By sretlaw1, Jun 23 09 4:43 PM