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#1012726 - Fri Sep 27 2013 06:39 PM Adolescence lasts till 25?
bloomsby Offline
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Are 'we' extending adolescence till age 25 or even beyond, and are young people being discouraged from moving into adulthood?


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-24173194


I'm aware that part of the difficulty arises from the fact that for many young people formal education is being extended well into their 20s, but that can't be the only factor in this.

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#1013032 - Sun Sep 29 2013 03:35 PM Re: Adolescence lasts till 25? [Re: bloomsby]
Santana2002 Offline
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Woah, very broad subject up for debate there, bloomsby!

I think lots of things contribute to this perceived extension of adolescence.

I can't say whether medically speaking 'adolescence' lasts up to or beyond age 25, but I do believe that the way life is lived nowadays does not necessitate youngsters maturing and behaving as adults, until much later than heretofore. Youngsters don't need to take on responsibility as early as before. The average age of parenthood has climbed and continues to climb, yet another contributing factor. I believe this this combination of less responsibility with longer studies and a heightened awareness of the dangers and difficulties of modern life, which mature adults try to protect younger people from, all play a large part in the phenomenon.


Edited by Santana2002 (Sun Sep 29 2013 03:37 PM)
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#1013197 - Mon Sep 30 2013 03:55 PM Re: Adolescence lasts till 25? [Re: Santana2002]
bloomsby Offline
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Quote:
... and a heightened awareness of the dangers and difficulties of modern life ...


When I think back to my own adolescence and early adulthood* I find it striking that on the whole our parents didn't make such a meal of these things. It was taken for granted that we would cope and, for our part, most of us were straining at the leash to be 'grown up' and independent.

After all, the concept of adolescence as a distinct stage of development is an invention that doesn't go back much before the 1890s, though the word was sometimes used earlier.



*I was born in 1945.


Edited by bloomsby (Tue Oct 01 2013 03:08 PM)

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#1013258 - Mon Sep 30 2013 11:03 PM Re: Adolescence lasts till 25? [Re: bloomsby]
Copago Offline
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I read a newspaper editorial recently which used the term "kidult" to refer to the group of that stage. (http://www.smh.com.au/comment/kidult-syndrome-freezing-out-gen-y-20130926-2ug1y.html)

We aren't expecting kids to grow up so why would they? (I feel like an old fogey saying it wink ) If kids can stay home and still get fed and their washing done why on earth move out?

Many jobs/professions seem to require more study and training now. That could explain a bit of kids not earning enough earlier to move out.

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#1013293 - Tue Oct 01 2013 04:44 AM Re: Adolescence lasts till 25? [Re: bloomsby]
Santana2002 Offline
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Which comes back to expectations again. If our expectation is that the 'child' needs to be looked after and protected then we don't give them the opportunity to grow up.
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#1013407 - Tue Oct 01 2013 04:16 PM Re: Adolescence lasts till 25? [Re: Santana2002]
bloomsby Offline
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Quote:
If our expectation is that the 'child' needs to be looked after and protected then we don't give them the opportunity to grow up.


I agree with you both. The issue of expectations is very important.

The length of formal education and professional training is also an important factor.

There also seems to have been a fundamental change in attitudes to parents. When at school, my generation intensely disliked parental intervention in school-related matters and it was very rare. At university - and the proportion of people proceeding to higher education was small by comparison with now - we didn't want our parents on campus, though out of basic courtesy most university students invited their parents to visit them once and showed them round and a second time for the graduation ceremony ... Much as we loved them, we found them a bit of an embarrassment on campus. Now, on the other hand, I hear stories about some 'helicopter parents' phoning lecturers and professors at home and trying to haggle over grades.

There is another, possibly less obvious dimension to the issue of expectations. My own parents and those of my contemporaries seemed to have far more confidence in their children's ability to cope with life and stand up for themselves. It is this apparent decline in parents' confidence in their own children (and, by implication, in their parenting) that puzzles me most.

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#1013665 - Wed Oct 02 2013 10:39 PM Re: Adolescence lasts till 25? [Re: bloomsby]
mountaingoat Offline
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The capital cities in Australia are in the top tier of the world when it comes housing costs. When I was a teenager in the 1970's I could walk out of a job and have a new one the same day. I would not like to be starting out these days. It is easy to blame the young but it is to the benefit of the older generation to keep house prices high and out of the reach of their own children. Rental properties are also higher. The funding for affordable and government housing dried up about 15 years ago. 40 years ago you could buy a house for about 2 years wages. It is now more than 7 years. I have heard, however, that a lot of young people are not prepared to start in a low paid job and a cheap house. This comes down though to the success of a lifetime of advertising telling them they deserve the best and they deserve it now. I have waited a lifetime to be able to say "The young people today .........." but fair shake of the stick.

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#1013942 - Fri Oct 04 2013 02:10 AM Re: Adolescence lasts till 25? [Re: bloomsby]
sue943 Offline

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Well it is all certainly completely different to when I was young. smile

As John (aka bloomsby) has said, it wasn't very common for people to go to university back then, and indeed it was common even for those in grammar schools to leave school at sixteen and go to work. People wishing to be accountants or solicitors (a type of lawyer) it wasn't necessary to go to university to get a degree, people were articled and trained within firms. Nurses didn't go to university, they went to nursing schools which were part of the hospitals, pilots went to flying schools which in the UK tended to be owned and run by what is now BA. It wasn't normal for employers to expect CVs other than for 'professional' people and jobs were very easy to get.

It was very common for people to marry early and indeed no one really thought it young when girls were under 20, my own sister was just under 20 when she got married to her 21 year old boyfriend. In fact I was rather old when I married at 26.

Mostly people left home to get married rather than for any other reason, my mother would have been very distressed had I moved out for anything other than marriage or because my job sent me somewhere distant. In fact my employers did send me to work here just before I was 25 so that is when I left home. I didn't know many people who moved out of home to be independent, just a few, and they moved towns to work.

When it came to my own two children, they went to university and I didn't expect them to return home afterwards, as far as I was concerned they should be independent. In my son's case he returned home after graduating, took some things and has not been home since, my daughter was harder to get rid of. She did leave home but that lasted a month or two before she came back as she could earn more locally than where her boyfriend was living, the money was good enough that she could fly to visit him every couple of weeks. She went back to studying after a year so finally moved out. Yeah!
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#1014004 - Fri Oct 04 2013 10:30 AM Re: Adolescence lasts till 25? [Re: bloomsby]
TabbyTom Offline
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Quote:
If kids can stay home and still get fed and their washing done why on earth move out?

Yes, I think rising standards if living over the last fifty years probably have much to do with it. Many of us who were born in the forties lived at least part of our childhood without some of the modern conveniences which gradually became available to “the masses” in the fifties and sixties. So, when we reached our late teens and early twenties, we knew that life could be lived and enjoyed without central heating, a refrigerator, wall-to-wall carpeting and many other things, because we had lived happily without them only a few years before. The trade-off of a few home comforts for independence seemed well worth while. Today, many young people probably regard a basic bedsitter as unbearably primitive and almost impossible to adjust to.

Quote:
At university … we didn't want our parents on campus

I remember a conversation at work (probably about fifteen years ago), when colleagues were talking about driving teenage sons and daughters to their universities at the beginning of term. I asked why so many of today's students couldn't go up to college on their own. Most university towns, I said, had railway stations, and in my undergraduate days we would have been rather embarrassed to be dropped off by parents as if we were five-year-olds starting primary school. My colleagues explained patiently that today's undergraduate can't exist or work without a television set, a computer and so on, that these items can't be ;left in digs during vacations, and that parents therefore have to act as chauffeurs.

Well, I'm glad to have been born when I was.
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#1014024 - Fri Oct 04 2013 10:50 AM Re: Adolescence lasts till 25? [Re: bloomsby]
sue943 Offline

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I really am a rotten parent. I didn't go to look at universities with my children, they went on their own and made their own minds up without any parental input. They caught planes with their stuff, I didn't take them to university although quite a lot of people here do take their cars over to do the deed.

I made two visits to their universities, once each when they were well settled and then for graduation.

Come to think of it, when my daughter went to boarding school in England for her A levels I didn't go with her then, I just visited on speech days to see her collect prizes and took the car to take her two years accumulation of stuff home. I did go with her to look at the schools when she was choosing but didn't go with her for her entrance examinations, she was sixteen, surely she could find her own way from the airport to the school, using trains when she wasn't used to them. smile
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#1014132 - Sat Oct 05 2013 02:39 AM Re: Adolescence lasts till 25? [Re: sue943]
C30 Offline
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Given the activities of some members of the human race, I would venture to suggest that adolescence lasts an complete lifetime in some cases.

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#1014134 - Sat Oct 05 2013 02:59 AM Re: Adolescence lasts till 25? [Re: bloomsby]
sue943 Offline

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Guilty as charged. smile
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#1014137 - Sat Oct 05 2013 03:44 AM Re: Adolescence lasts till 25? [Re: bloomsby]
halekotsi Offline
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It may be more natural in terms of prefrontal cortex development. Then again, I think it's safe to say my prefrontal cortex has done all the developing it's going to by now.

Personally, I think the real problem is the "time to leave childish things behind and accept drudgery as your lot" mentality. I'm very fortunate to have a job that I enjoy and that lets me continue to indulge my eternal adolescent side.

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#1014263 - Sun Oct 06 2013 01:57 AM Re: Adolescence lasts till 25? [Re: bloomsby]
Jabberwok Offline
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I also think that one of the issues is the expectations you have of a teenager or adult child living in your home.
I give them a roof over their heads, and food. I do not do their washing, cleaning and all the things they are capable of managing themselves. We've always shared out household tasks, age and inclination-appropriate. The necessary jobs that everyone hates are done on a rota basis.
Oh, and TabbyTom? When I was a student, we didn't bother much with locks as no-one had anything much worth stealing. smile
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#1061490 - Tue Aug 26 2014 09:28 PM Re: Adolescence lasts till 25? [Re: bloomsby]
TriviaFan22 Offline
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It's a new emerging sociological phenomenon... or more correctly, it already has emerged.

It's called Emerging Adulthood

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emerging_adulthood_and_early_adulthood

Societal factors such as the majority of young persons matriculating into higher education, the booming middle class in the latter half of the last century, came to together to present a situation where many young people did not have to work and had other options than take a job after high school. Manufacturing was also shipped overseas so the jobs young people used to take that satisfied as careers are far less numerous, leading many to go to college in hope of a lucrative career.

Basically these situations made it so that the maturation of many young people is being pushed into the mid- to late-20s. You also have to keep in mind reproductive knowledge, medicine, and the openness of casual sex has also delayed starting families, which is a built in precursor to responsibility. The youths who start families by 21 have to mature a lot quicker and younger than the young person who delays starting a family or has casual protected sex.

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#1061891 - Thu Aug 28 2014 01:20 PM Re: Adolescence lasts till 25? [Re: TriviaFan22]
bloomsby Offline
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Thanks for drawing attention to the term Emerging Adulthood.

It seems to me that this extension of adolescence/delay in reaching adulthood is, apart from anything else, very expensive.

Incidentally, I've often heard it said that the cultural, behavioural and psychological concept of adolescence as a distinct phase between childhood and adulthood is relatively recent, dating from the second half of the 19th century and initially not extending much below the better off sections of the middle classes. Moreover, according to the work of work of many social historians, such as Philippe Ariès, even the concept of modern concept of childhood as a distinct phase between infancy and (near) adulthood for many purposes isn't that old, either (late 18th century onwards). However, I mustn't rabbit on ...

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#1061926 - Thu Aug 28 2014 03:46 PM Re: Adolescence lasts till 25? [Re: bloomsby]
Jakeroo Offline
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This whole adolescense thing is crap, as far as I'm concerned. Kids grow up really fast (either by fate/circumstances, or if you make them). And there are plenty of examples of young kids who have made (financial, environmental, human interest/welfare) successes because they have persevered. Frankly, I think the entire problem these days is that parents spoil their children to ridiculous ends. Sure, I believe it's fine to let your kid live with you (not sure that it should be rent free nor laundry free nor food expense free while they are there) while they attend university. But hey, if they get don't finish upper ed or get married instead and have a pile of babies they can't afford, then by all means don't take them back in when they "fail" (in either their vocation or their marriage). I really really DO understand that folks from my "era" don't want to see their kids live through the same hardships we did (or our parents from the depression era before us) but you know? Interest rates are lower than they've been in 40 years. I WISH I was 40 years younger lol. Put them on a boat, if they can't sail, oh well. Stop bailing them out and they'll grow up REAL fast (or face the consequences).


Edited by Jakeroo (Thu Aug 28 2014 04:05 PM)
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#1061931 - Thu Aug 28 2014 04:15 PM Re: Adolescence lasts till 25? [Re: bloomsby]
trident Online   content
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I am a Millennial and I feel as though this is an issue that I see written about a lot. I feel as though my generation often gets beat up a lot as lazy or immature, but I couldn't disagree more.

My take is this: the American dream is a lot different in 2014 than it was in 1964. Almost any job that allows one to "live the American dream" requires higher education, which is exponentially more expensive. Off the bat, in order to even be competitive in the job market, you have to go into loads of debt.

And about that job market...the lament of the Millennial is that one must go through an insane amount of interviewing, resume-building, and interning before one can land a position that allows them to earn a living wage. Most often these internships are unpaid.

We saw the dotcom and housing bubbles pop, so we are more likely to rent than buy a house knowing that we would rather pay for what we can afford than be at risk in the future. And sometimes we do live in our parents' houses (the ones that haven't been foreclosed on) in order to save money to pay for the college that you need in order to get out of your parents' house. If it sounds a little like Catch-22, that's because it is.

Of course there are parents who coddle their children, but the young adults I know are nothing of the sort. They are hard-working and industrious and want to make a good living, just like previous generations.

The big picture, I think, is that my generation is changing what it means to be an adult. We don't need to own houses or get married to be responsible human beings. Traditional definitions of adulthood don't apply to us, so therefore we aren't seen as "adults". I think this upending of tradition is sometimes seen as foreign or scary to past generations.


Edited by trident (Thu Aug 28 2014 04:31 PM)
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#1061957 - Thu Aug 28 2014 11:06 PM Re: Adolescence lasts till 25? [Re: Jakeroo]
TriviaFan22 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Jakeroo
This whole adolescense thing is crap, as far as I'm concerned. Kids grow up really fast (either by fate/circumstances, or if you make them). And there are plenty of examples of young kids who have made (financial, environmental, human interest/welfare) successes because they have persevered. Frankly, I think the entire problem these days is that parents spoil their children to ridiculous ends. Sure, I believe it's fine to let your kid live with you (not sure that it should be rent free nor laundry free nor food expense free while they are there) while they attend university. But hey, if they get don't finish upper ed or get married instead and have a pile of babies they can't afford, then by all means don't take them back in when they "fail" (in either their vocation or their marriage). I really really DO understand that folks from my "era" don't want to see their kids live through the same hardships we did (or our parents from the depression era before us) but you know? Interest rates are lower than they've been in 40 years. I WISH I was 40 years younger lol. Put them on a boat, if they can't sail, oh well. Stop bailing them out and they'll grow up REAL fast (or face the consequences).


Part I of Charles Murray's and Larry Hernstein's The Bell Curve dives into stratification of intelligence.

That's what started happening when one portion of the population exercised good reproductive patterns and one portion didn't. It's what happens when high school drop puts marry high school drop outs, college grads marry college grads, and PhD students marry PhD students.

"the smart get smarter and the dumb get dumber"

The qualities of intelligence are being continually reinforced and strengthened in each subsequent generation until intelligence starts to crowd toward the top. In this sense, the intelligent start to enter an affluent sort of class, affluent in intelligence. The unintelligent lose speed and the division causes dramatic differences in attainment.. a highly technical ruling class met with a low skilled service class.

But to your point, you can see how this also shows that the level of parenting skills has also widened.

Children with parents who outmaneuvered their peers, by skill and by higher intelligence, and maybe a break, are more gifted at imparting those values to their children. The parents who weren't met with success cannot impart skills to the children that they don't have to impart.

College is a way for a young man or woman who has no idea how to make it to withdraw from the world for another several years until they figure that out.

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#1061958 - Thu Aug 28 2014 11:16 PM Re: Adolescence lasts till 25? [Re: trident]
TriviaFan22 Offline
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There's definitely an unfair rap against the youths. One doesn't just go get work at the factory, which at one time was work with on-the-job training, no college education required, and gave one a foot into the middle class lifestyle, a two bedroom home with a white picket fence and all that.

Now, you can off and get a job at McDonald's or Long John Silver's, sure. There's plenty of those to go around.

The elders are confused why we can't make it. Historically none of these workers are getting paid more than what they would have made in 1980. For many people, they need a job within walking distance. Gramps, gasoline isn't 15 cents a gallon anymore. It takes $60 to fill the tank and with moderate usage you'll need to refill in a week.

There are probably millions, if not billions of unnecessary car repairs that have to be made every year from mechanical failures from running on empty today, which probably was never a problem until the last 10 or so years.

Charles Murray would argue this was made possible by the college-for-all argument, the trend in guidance counseling to encourage ALL students to sign up for higher education. He suggests there needs to be just as strong emphasis on the trades, and many others suggest we need to rethink our low view of the trades, so that it becomes something students do aspire to.

Technology.. That plays a role in socialization/isolation. I'm not sure how much to each. It definitely seems the very socially oriented, the cool kids, can very savvily manipulate technology to advance their social status, while naturally the kids who in school would have been seen as boring or nerdy are probably more isolated by technology. Humans now tend to engage in very trifling, superficial connections with one another, when perhaps more young people found more success before the cell phone, the text message, and even later Facebook, became THE way people communicate.

There are so many things taking place for an apples-to-apples comparison to be made.

Times are so vastly different from just 10 years ago, we can't any longer rely on the old conventional wisdom in how we read the currents.

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#1061959 - Thu Aug 28 2014 11:41 PM Re: Adolescence lasts till 25? [Re: bloomsby]
TriviaFan22 Offline
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Piece of advice and forewarning

My outlook, I think success has less to do with intelligence/genius now than it has to do with being clever.

When malaise grips a society, the artists do best. When Rome is burning, the need for bread and circuses rises exponentially.

If you are a gifted musician, a scholar, or have a creative skill, use it to write a book, record an album, or some alternate means of bringing money in. Do you know the job market is like right now, how people are fighting over just one job, with low pay/no benefits. It's like if you drop a five dollar bill in the ghetto and you see fifty people drop to the ground fighting over it.

So if you're an artist, make art. But outlook is grim.

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#1061965 - Thu Aug 28 2014 11:55 PM Re: Adolescence lasts till 25? [Re: Jakeroo]
TriviaFan22 Offline
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Jakeroo if interest rates are lower now, I think that would be to encourage velocity of money because the economy has slowed. It's to encourage investment in new home construction and other large purchases that keep a fragile economy floating.

So my view it seems like "lower interest rate" paints a different picture from that you're trying to paint.

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#1061980 - Fri Aug 29 2014 05:50 AM Re: Adolescence lasts till 25? [Re: trident]
bloomsby Offline
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Quote:
I am a Millennial ...


Here's a link to a Wikipedia article on Millenials, aka as Generation Y which is broadly speaking those born between c. 1980 and 1995-6. They tend to be grandchildren of the Baby Boom generation, though some are children of that generation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennials

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#1062069 - Fri Aug 29 2014 03:44 PM Re: Adolescence lasts till 25? [Re: bloomsby]
Jakeroo Offline
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I disagree with whatever author who said "the smart get smarter and the dumb get dumber". There are hundreds if not thousands of verified examples of people who never finished high school who did quite well in life. Case in point my own husband, who went through the "modified" program in high school (for those who don't know, this was basically the "retard" group back in the early 70's.. yah yah, spare me your PC comments, that's how people were regarded back when I attended grade school. Either you were smart or not, but either way, at the extreme ends you were ostracised. This is one area where I think adolescents of today (women in particular - let me tell you, it was difficult being an intelligent female in the 70s -have an advantage. In most cases those women did everything they could to hide it. These days young people have more freedom to BE who they are, even if they`re not the prom queen or the football quarterback.

And yes it`s okay now to be a `Sheldon Cooper`. Not because of the show, but because of other people who didn`t make the highschool yearbook hot list have paved the way for them (no matter what you think of people like Bill Gates, the Woz and and Steve Jobs etc, they changed the world and how people, including adolescents, see themselves IN it).

Anyway, back to my personal example. Hubby is GREAT with people and a much nicer person than I am and despite starting off "adult" life doing more than nothing than being a lifeguard and mowing lawns, ended up earning 100K per year, because oh my, he was an adult after all, he just hadn't found himself earlier. Personally, I have two university degrees and one university certificate (Master Gardener, which for some reason I am most proud of lol, perhaps because people actually ask me for advice - silly folks lol). But the thing is, even with ALL this education, I've never earned more than 1/3 what my husband did. So gimme a break on the "fighting for a job" thing. Been there, done that. Didn't get a t-shirt. And no, I'm not bitter in the least, just bemused : )

To me, being an adult, is NOT depending on anyone else for your own welfare (including the government] so I'll agree with Triviafan that it's not about marriage/kids specifically, but it's a plus that someday I hope he/she can appreciate.

I disagree that kids today get a bad rap. Lots of kids grow up to do wonderful things, but "enabling" certain behaviours helps no one. They have to make their own mistakes (and bear the consequences) in order to "grow" (or become an "adult" as this thread seems to be about).

I DO have a bit of problem with Tridents comments that somehow the dot com era was catastrophic. Compared to what? Compared to the Great Depression? Compared to the stock market crash in the 20's? Compared to the Spanish Flu? Perspective is everything, and although I have lived through the recent so-called crises, those examples presented hardly qualify as things that couldn't be overcome, unless you really wanted to be in the dot.com business lol. In that case, bad choice. We all make lots of them in life lol.

As far as the less than astute comment on interest rates from TirivaFan, I would like you to know that when we built our house in 1980 (with our own hands, btw, with the help of our fathers), the interest rates were 19%, with interim financing at 21% (which at any other time in history would have been considered usury, a punishable crime, but I guess it was "okay" since it was the banks that did it lol). Try paying for a mortgage at those rates when you're earning less than 15 bucks an hour lol.

As for the car problems? Really??? I live in a city/suburbs with 1.5 million people. I've never had a problem getting anywhere. My parents didn't have a car until long after I had left home and moved out on my own. I took a bus EVERYwhere. That method of transportation is quite reasonable cost-wise, even by today's standards. If you don't have a car, you just have to get your butt out of bed a little earlier to get where you need to go on time. AND it is quite possible to live in a world without cars (or gas/fuel/carbon etc but that's a topic for another thread lol)

There is a huge difference between "needs" versus "wants" as well as "expectations" versus the real world. Maybe when we finally figure that out (including me lol), we'\ll all be "adults" : )

(edited because I have no feeling in my fingers these days and canèt type worth a dang) (and someone needs to tell me how to turn off the silly french keyboard thing that wonèt let me type apostrophes without an accent au grave - or whatever itès called lol)


Edited by Jakeroo (Fri Aug 29 2014 07:40 PM)
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#1062079 - Fri Aug 29 2014 04:36 PM Re: Adolescence lasts till 25? [Re: Jakeroo]
trident Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Jakeroo
I DO have a bit of problem with Tridents comments that somehow the dot com era was catastrophic. Compared to what? Compared to the Great Depression? Compared to the stock market crash in the 20's? Compared to the Spanish Flu? Perspective is everything, and although I have lived through the recent so-called crises, those examples presented hardly qualify as things that couldn't be overcome, unless you really wanted to be in the dot.com business lol. In that case, bad choice. We all make lots of them in life lol.


I think what I was trying to say was not that these time periods were catastrophic or unlivable, but simply that many of us grew up as children seeing these events happen to our parents and parents' friends and wanted to avoid the same. The risks the financial sector took to enrich themselves at the expense of others can be seen in these two events, especially the latter (housing bubble). I know people who lost their jobs and their homes. And, of course, they usually bounced back and found other places to live and work (however long it took to find employment). But they probably didn't feel very much like a respectable adult with all of that happening to them at the time.

When you see someone who you considered a responsible person lose their job and house, and then have their family torn apart due to the stress of all of it, you tend to try and avoid the situation which led to that. This is something that a lot of young people today have witnessed in their lifetime, and they have accordingly decided that they would probably be better off playing it safe: not betting on long-term employment in any circumstance as you can be laid off on a company's whim, not indulging in large idealistic homes that banks assure that you can afford, and not marrying too early because of social pressures to do so. We are a cautious lot because we have seen the real damage done to our friends and family.
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Perception is everything.

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