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#1024465 - Fri Dec 06 2013 08:10 AM New Union Jack (UK flag)?
bloomsby Offline
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Registered: Sun Apr 29 2001
Posts: 3487
Loc: Norwich England UK            
In September 2014 the Scots will vote in a referendum to decide whether to remain in the United Kingdom ... If a majority votes to leave, the actual exit would take place in 2016.

The departure of Scotland from the UK would leave many problems in its wake - things like citizenship, passports, dividing the North Sea oil and gas fields, apportioning part of the UK national debt to Scotland, pensions - you name it. There is also uncertainty as to whether Scotland would need to rejoin the European Union and, if so, on what basis.

In addition, there's the issue of the national flag. Here is a link to some designs that have been suggested (not all of them seriously):

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-25222891

Note that the black in some of the designs presumably derives from the Welsh St David's Flag, which is (usually) a yellow cross on a black field.

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#1024499 - Fri Dec 06 2013 09:24 AM Re: New Union Jack (UK flag)? [Re: bloomsby]
dsimpy Offline
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Registered: Sun Jan 24 2010
Posts: 428
Loc: Belfast Ireland
Alex Salmond is living in a dream world if he thinks even an overwhelming majority vote will lead to an independent Scotland. On past historical performance the Brits will just partition the country after the referendum, and the SNP will be left with the Western Highlands and Orkney.
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#1024507 - Fri Dec 06 2013 10:04 AM Re: New Union Jack (UK flag)? [Re: bloomsby]
dippo Offline
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Registered: Sat Jun 14 2008
Posts: 563
Loc: London
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Looking on the bright side, Alex Salmond has said that an independent Scotland would want to keep the queen.

Give us an address to send them to, and we'll let him have the whole family now!

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#1024514 - Fri Dec 06 2013 10:55 AM Re: New Union Jack (UK flag)? [Re: bloomsby]
sisterseagull Offline
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Registered: Tue Aug 16 2011
Posts: 187
Loc: Torquay Devon England UK      
I see the republicans are crawling out of the woodwork again. So... You'd like to see the back of Her Majesty would you? And who would you want in her place... the likes of Tony Blair, Milliband, Cameron or any of the other crooks that currently form our government?

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#1024516 - Fri Dec 06 2013 11:08 AM Re: New Union Jack (UK flag)? [Re: sisterseagull]
dippo Offline
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Originally Posted By: sisterseagull
I see the republicans are crawling out of the woodwork again.


Just because you hold a different view, there is no need to insult somebody by suggesting they have 'crawled out of the woodwork'.

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#1024518 - Fri Dec 06 2013 11:35 AM Re: New Union Jack (UK flag)? [Re: bloomsby]
sisterseagull Offline
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Registered: Tue Aug 16 2011
Posts: 187
Loc: Torquay Devon England UK      
Insult? I don't see it as an insult and it wasn't intended as such.

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#1024520 - Fri Dec 06 2013 11:56 AM Re: New Union Jack (UK flag)? [Re: bloomsby]
dippo Offline
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Registered: Sat Jun 14 2008
Posts: 563
Loc: London
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Then next time you meet your hero, I'm sure you'll say "Good Morning, your Majesty. I'm delighted you could crawl out of the woodwork to be with us."

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#1024528 - Fri Dec 06 2013 12:16 PM Re: New Union Jack (UK flag)? [Re: bloomsby]
sisterseagull Offline
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Registered: Tue Aug 16 2011
Posts: 187
Loc: Torquay Devon England UK      
Hmmmmm ... OK

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#1024530 - Fri Dec 06 2013 12:37 PM Re: New Union Jack (UK flag)? [Re: bloomsby]
ren33 Online   content
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Registered: Thu Sep 30 1999
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This sort of mud slinging is pointless, serves no purpose and is not permitted on Funtrivia. The people you are insulting cannot answer back.What can be gained from it? Please stop.
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#1024531 - Fri Dec 06 2013 01:05 PM Re: New Union Jack (UK flag)? [Re: bloomsby]
agony Offline

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Registered: Sat Mar 29 2003
Posts: 11264
Loc: Western Canada
The two with black background and variations of St George's, St Patrick's, and St David's crosses are quite striking.

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#1024537 - Fri Dec 06 2013 02:17 PM Re: New Union Jack (UK flag)? [Re: agony]
dsimpy Offline
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Registered: Sun Jan 24 2010
Posts: 428
Loc: Belfast Ireland
St. Patrick's Cross is Irish. It might make sense to take that one out too when St. Andrew's Cross goes - it'd save having to change the Butcher's Apron every five minutes. grin
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#1024542 - Fri Dec 06 2013 03:07 PM Re: New Union Jack (UK flag)? [Re: bloomsby]
TabbyTom Offline
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Registered: Wed Oct 17 2001
Posts: 8099
Loc: Hastings Sussex England UK 
I rather like the seventh flag from the top, which gives reasonable prominence to the St Piran's cross of Cornwall (though I'd prefer it without the crown).
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#1024556 - Fri Dec 06 2013 05:02 PM Re: New Union Jack (UK flag)? [Re: bloomsby]
bloomsby Offline
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Registered: Sun Apr 29 2001
Posts: 3487
Loc: Norwich England UK            
I wonder how Commonwealth countries that include the Union Jack in own flags would react to a change?

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#1024568 - Fri Dec 06 2013 06:07 PM Re: New Union Jack (UK flag)? [Re: bloomsby]
dg_dave Offline
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Registered: Sun Oct 05 2003
Posts: 18868
Loc: Dallas, TX USA              
When was the last time the flag was changed, and would they even change the flag? Aren't there only three divisions of the UK currently?
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#1024575 - Fri Dec 06 2013 06:29 PM Re: New Union Jack (UK flag)? [Re: bloomsby]
bloomsby Offline
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Registered: Sun Apr 29 2001
Posts: 3487
Loc: Norwich England UK            
Of course, there would be the option of leaving the flag as it is.

The present version of the flag was adopted in 1801, following the union of Great Britain with Ireland. (The previous version was a combination of the flags of England and Scotland, without the Cross of St Patrick for Ireland).

Wales is not represented in the British flag.

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#1024581 - Fri Dec 06 2013 06:41 PM Re: New Union Jack (UK flag)? [Re: bloomsby]
ozzz2002 Offline
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Registered: Mon Dec 03 2001
Posts: 16590
Loc: Sydney NSW Australia        
Originally Posted By: bloomsby
I wonder how Commonwealth countries that include the Union Jack in own flags would react to a change?

Good question, Bloomsby. The Australian and New Zealand flags both feature the Union Jack, quite prominently. The Republican movement in Oz is strong- maybe this will have some long-term repercussions Down Under.
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#1024584 - Fri Dec 06 2013 07:01 PM Re: New Union Jack (UK flag)? [Re: bloomsby]
flopsymopsy Offline
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Registered: Sat May 17 2008
Posts: 2415
Loc: Northampton England UK      
Originally Posted By: bloomsby


Wales is not represented in the British flag.



Well, it sort of is... Wales was annexed as a fiefdom of the English crown and regarded as a principality of England; it was therefore represented by the flag of England. (Don't shout at me all you Welsh patriots, the annexation was long before my time! 1284 to be precise.)

There's no reason why it can't be left as it is - we could just replace the flag of St Andrew with some blue colouring to represent the sea...

As someone who used to be responsible for publications and marketing budgets, I do hope they stick to two colours plus white - paying for four colour printing would cost an arm and a leg. And please, no fancy crests and legends that have to be aligned - every publication officer's nightmare.

Our advantage of course is that while there are strict rules for displaying the Union Flag for official purposes, we still take great liberties with our flag unofficially. We paint it on Minis, carry it on plastic bags, even wear it as underwear - and make a fortune selling it to tourists as fashion. Just think what we did with it last year, through the Jubilee events to the Olympics, Team GB's kit, and David Hockney's version for the Closing Ceremony. In some ways that flag is as old fashioned as flags get - yet it is infinitely versatile.
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#1024599 - Fri Dec 06 2013 09:15 PM Re: New Union Jack (UK flag)? [Re: bloomsby]
bloomsby Offline
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Registered: Sun Apr 29 2001
Posts: 3487
Loc: Norwich England UK            
Another date is often given - probably misleadingly - for the full incorporation of Wales into 'England and Wales' - 1535. Before that date Wales (and Cheshire) were completely unrepresented in the House of Commons.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_in_Wales_Acts_1535%E2%80%931542

However, since the early 1990s Britain has been 'reinventing itself' as England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.


Edited by bloomsby (Fri Dec 06 2013 09:17 PM)

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#1024642 - Sat Dec 07 2013 09:51 AM Re: New Union Jack (UK flag)? [Re: bloomsby]
shorthumbz Offline
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Registered: Mon Jan 30 2012
Posts: 36
Loc: Ohio USA
As an American I am not well informed on this topic and certainly have no vested interest in it; but it is nevertheless very interesting to read about ... especially as we have areas of states talking about seceding from their present states (Colorado) and entire states talking about seceding from the US altogether (Texas).

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#1024645 - Sat Dec 07 2013 10:52 AM Re: New Union Jack (UK flag)? [Re: bloomsby]
mehaul Offline
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Registered: Wed Feb 03 2010
Posts: 4841
Loc: Florida USA
American here too. I remember as a youngster, ventures up to Quebec and was initiated to the Canadian flag of that era. Since the attempt of Quebec to separate from the Commonwealth, there was a change to the Canadian banner, a conversion to the Maple leaf motif I think we are all now familiar with. But it is enlightening to go through the flags of Canada and all its subordinates' banners. There is some change to the old Union Jack to be seen in that flags history.
See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_flags
In reading this article I found that
Originally Posted By: wiki
The Queen's personal standard is supreme in the order of precedence, followed by those for the monarch's representatives (depending on jurisdiction), the personal flags of other members of the Royal Family, and then the national flag and provincial flags.
In view of this, is the status of Scotland's ensigns in a similar ranking of order?

IMHO, flags should be changed if they come to represent oppression even if there is no political change. As an example might I mention a cousin of the Union Jack that has been put aside because of the history associated with it: the flag of Dixie, the Confederate flag?


Edited by mehaul (Sat Dec 07 2013 11:02 AM)
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#1024655 - Sat Dec 07 2013 12:27 PM Re: New Union Jack (UK flag)? [Re: bloomsby]
flopsymopsy Offline
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Registered: Sat May 17 2008
Posts: 2415
Loc: Northampton England UK      
Well, a change to the Union Flag would be relevant to the USA because it's incorporated in the flag of Hawaii.

The Royal Standard is not a National Flag, and some countries have different standards - Scotland has its own Royal Standard, so do Canada and other Commonwealth realms. It is flown on royal residences if the Queen is present, on vehicles she is travelling in, and under certain circumstances, from buildings she is visiting. However, the usual practice in the UK is that the flags displayed on buildings are the National Flags, i.e. the Union Flag and, if appropriate, the flag of the country involved. At the Olympics last year, for example, even when the Queen was present in the stadium, the flag flown was the National Flag, i.e. the Union Flag but neither the Royal Standard nor the Flag of England were flown. In the latter case, that would be because the Olympics were an international event and because the host city, London, is the capital of the United Kingdom - it was not selected as host city as a result of its status as capital of England. You can find more about the Royal Standard here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Standard_(United_Kingdom)
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#1029926 - Tue Jan 14 2014 08:18 PM Re: New Union Jack (UK flag)? [Re: bloomsby]
gracious1 Offline
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Registered: Tue May 01 2012
Posts: 645
Loc: New York USA
Originally Posted By: bloomsby

However, since the early 1990s Britain has been 'reinventing itself' as England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.


And what was Britain or the UK before the 1990s? Wasn't it exactly that?

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#1030102 - Wed Jan 15 2014 02:33 PM Re: New Union Jack (UK flag)? [Re: bloomsby]
sue943 Offline

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Registered: Sun Dec 19 1999
Posts: 35211
Loc: Jersey Channel Islands        
The United Kingdom and Northern Ireland.
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#1030121 - Wed Jan 15 2014 03:50 PM Re: New Union Jack (UK flag)? [Re: sue943]
Chavs Offline
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Registered: Fri Jul 15 2011
Posts: 830
Loc: Ireland
Originally Posted By: sue943
The United Kingdom and Northern Ireland.


I think it's either "Great Britain and Northern Ireland" or the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". "United Kingdom" is just shorthand for all four countries counted together.



Edited by Chavs (Wed Jan 15 2014 03:53 PM)

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#1030123 - Wed Jan 15 2014 03:56 PM Re: New Union Jack (UK flag)? [Re: shorthumbz]
Chavs Offline
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Registered: Fri Jul 15 2011
Posts: 830
Loc: Ireland
Originally Posted By: shorthumbz
As an American I am not well informed on this topic and certainly have no vested interest in it; but it is nevertheless very interesting to read about ... especially as we have areas of states talking about seceding from their present states (Colorado) and entire states talking about seceding from the US altogether (Texas).


I didn't realise that was an option. Isn't a bit unlikely? Sounds to me like it's more of a political point? But I haven't a clue, that's why I am asking.

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