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#1051320 - Thu Jul 03 2014 06:52 PM Re: Homework - At what age did you start being set it? [Re: bloomsby]
agony Offline

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Loc: Western Canada
No cafeteria in elementary school, we all went home for lunch. In high school, one had a cafeteria, the other two didn't - kids brought lunch or went out and bought it.

My kids, in the nineties, could either bring lunch or go home for lunch in elementary (we lived far enough away, and I worked, so they brought a lunch) and in high school no cafeteria - brought lunch or went to the greasy spoon a block away.

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#1051549 - Sat Jul 05 2014 06:29 AM Re: Homework - At what age did you start being set it? [Re: bloomsby]
sue943 Offline

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Thinking back, almost all children ate the cooked 'school dinners', they were substantial and nutritious so were the main meal of the day for us, we would go home and just have a sandwich tea. This was not only primary school but also at secondary school. At the secondary school that I went to only about a dozen or two (out of well over 500 girls) brought a packed lunch, I was one of them, which we had to eat in a particular room. All the other girls ate in the school dining room, in two sittings.
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#1051565 - Sat Jul 05 2014 07:45 AM Re: Homework - At what age did you start being set it? [Re: bloomsby]
ren33 Offline
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School dinners were 10 old pence a day. If you had a sibling it was 9d and so on down. I think you got free dinners if you had 4 children in the family. I had them and, looking back, they were pretty awful, the cabbage was very soggy and smelt awful The mash was pretty lumpy.I do remember that the chocolate pudding was ok.
My daughter was the only one in the history of her school who went up and asked for more! (says a lot for my cooking)This was in the '60'S.


Edited by ren33 (Sat Jul 05 2014 08:06 AM)
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#1051573 - Sat Jul 05 2014 09:49 AM Re: Homework - At what age did you start being set it? [Re: bloomsby]
sue943 Offline

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Obviously different education authorities were different. When I was in primary school lunches were 9d per day so 3/9d per week with the only people getting them for free were those in need. My father once lost his job and I had to hand in a letter to the headmistress asking for free lunches for a period of time, until he found work. I felt so ashamed in the classroom when I had to tell the teacher that I was having free lunches.

My mother started working in a school kitchen to get out of the house for a few hours each day when my father got a new job, he was woking shifts so when he was working nights my mother had to creep round so as not to wake him. Working for school dinners meant that she only worked termtime. At first she did three hours each day, from 12 noon until 3pm, then it was discovered that she trained as a professional cook in her teens so she was soon asked to work longer hours and assist in the cooking, then being promoted to assistant cook, then cook. Finally she was asked to go to college to take a professional qualification and then was given her own brand new kitchen and promoted to supervisor and had about 16 kitchen staff, they produced about 1,000 meals each day, some for her school and some for other schools. This is how I know about the three week menus and the costings, mum had to do them all.
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#1051586 - Sat Jul 05 2014 01:44 PM Re: Homework - At what age did you start being set it? [Re: bloomsby]
flopsymopsy Offline
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Loc: Northampton England UK      
I was a delicate child and a picky eater so my mother wouldn't let me have school dinners and I went home to eat because she was anxious that I should eat properly. The irony of that is that no matter how bad school dinners were, my mother was a terrible cook* which is probably why I was picky in the first place. So I walked up the steep hill from school when the dinner bell went and skipped down it later. But when I went to grammar school it was much too far go home so I had school dinners for a while. They were sooo bad I longed for my mother's cooking. Seriously. We were given something called 'manchester tart' which consisted of pastry the consistency of plasterboard, a scraping of jam, and solid, lumpy custard which looked like sic... no, let's not go there. They also had chocolate doughnuts. They were the only thing labeled 'chocolate' that I've ever been unable to eat - they were solid. Like cannonballs. So we used them like ammunition and threw them everywhere. I won't tell you what the chocolate sauce was like or what we did with it - some people might be eating their tea!



*apart from cake. I'll give her that, my mother made wonderful cakes and her chocolate sponge cakes, made especially for me, were to die for. She could however, and did frequently, murder a cauliflower and the things she could do to a stew don't bear thinking about. grin
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#1052081 - Wed Jul 09 2014 01:18 PM Re: Homework - At what age did you start being set it? [Re: bloomsby]
satguru Offline
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Registered: Thu Feb 17 2000
Posts: 6995
Loc: Kingsbury London UK           
Since school dinners fates were mentioned I have to roll out my story in case some people haven't heard it, primary school in class after lunch, the teacher said 'Alan, what's that?' 'Nothing' 'Stand up and let me see' while some apparent snow had appeared around his legs. 'Turn out your pockets' and out came what appeared to be far more mashed potato than the two or three scoops we were given, which all fell out and formed a small avalanche on the floor. They did try and force people to finish their food back then, and that was how he'd avoided eating the mashed potato. I'll never forget seeing what seemed like an endless fall of white snow from both his pockets while everyone stood round in total awe.


Edited by satguru (Wed Jul 09 2014 01:19 PM)
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#1052561 - Sat Jul 12 2014 10:22 PM Re: Homework - At what age did you start being set it? [Re: bloomsby]
dg_dave Offline
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Registered: Sun Oct 05 2003
Posts: 21566
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When I was in elementary school in Oklahoma (1983-1989), our day went from about 8:30 to 3:15. We had a forty-five minute lunch in a cafeteria...recess was the rest of that time plus an additional fifteen minutes. Students could leave to go home for lunch if they lived nearby.

Middle school (I had moved to Texas by this time (from 1989-1992)) lasted from 8:25 to 3:25. Again, lunches were forty-five minutes long. These were closed campuses.

High school was split for me. From 1992 to 1994, we had fifty-four minute classes, and a fifty-four minute lunch (six minute passing periods were included to make a full hour). Students who opted into a "zero hour" started at 7:25, but all other students started at 8:25. Classes ended at 3:44 (second hour had what was called "extended second" which was time for announcements and the like), and it lasted twenty minutes. From 1994 to 1996, the high school I attended converted to "block scheduling", which was "A" day and "B" day. Every other week, we had three "A" days and two "B" days, and the next week it reversed. Classes started at 7:55 and ended at 2:55. Lunch was during third class, and broken into four thirty-six minute intervals. "A" Lunch was first, then had class for one hour and forty-two minutes (again, six minutes to change classes). "B" Lunch had class for thirty-six minutes, lunch, then class again. "C" lunch was the opposite of "B" lunch, and "D" lunch went to class straight through first, then lunch ended that. Instead of "extended second", that time was moved to first...still twenty minutes long. Campuses were again closed.


Edited by dg_dave (Sat Jul 12 2014 10:23 PM)
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#1052574 - Sun Jul 13 2014 01:36 AM Re: Homework - At what age did you start being set it? [Re: bloomsby]
ren33 Offline
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Posts: 12002
Loc: Fanling
  Hong Kong      
Whoa Dave! Heaven help the teacher who compiled timetables there! In Uk it used to be that the Deputy did it. or a teacher was paid extra. Strange but I was never invited to partake in that....
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#1052738 - Sun Jul 13 2014 12:10 PM Re: Homework - At what age did you start being set it? [Re: bloomsby]
guitargoddess Offline
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Loc: Ottawa Ontario Canada         
Boy that's confusing. I had the same 'A' and 'B' day type thing in high school (we called them Day 1 and Day 2 though), but lunch was always at the same time for everyone.

I never got the point of the Day 1 and Day 2, to be honest. What difference did it make that on Monday, Wednesday and Friday I had math first followed by English, and on Tuesday and Thursday had English first and then math? It worked out in the afternoons for me though with my spare period in my last year. I had spare third period both semesters, but on Day 2s, third period actually became fourth period and I could leave early
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#1052785 - Sun Jul 13 2014 03:41 PM Re: Homework - At what age did you start being set it? [Re: bloomsby]
dg_dave Offline
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Registered: Sun Oct 05 2003
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Loc: near Stafford, Virginia USA  
Our "A" days and "B" days were completely different classes. If you had English on "A" day, you did NOT on "B" day. The first few weeks were confusing, but once you got used to it, it was fine.

Ours were called "Red" day and "Blue" day, as that was my high school's colors.
_________________________
The way to get things done is NOT to mind who gets the credit for doing them. --Benjamin Jowett
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent. --Eleanor Roosevelt
The day we lose our will to fight is the day we lose our freedom.

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#1052820 - Sun Jul 13 2014 06:42 PM Re: Homework - At what age did you start being set it? [Re: bloomsby]
agony Offline

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We had a four day week in high school - Day One, Day Two, Day Three, Day Four. I think it was partly to allow classes to sometimes be taught at different times of the day - you wouldn't always have Biology first thing, for instance. To accommodate those with different learning styles and body rhythms. It also had something to do with those classes that we didn't have every day, like Religion and Sex Ed.

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#1052861 - Mon Jul 14 2014 04:08 AM Re: Homework - At what age did you start being set it? [Re: bloomsby]
ren33 Offline
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  Hong Kong      
We had a six day rotation which meant that Mon-Fri was 1-5 and Monday was 6 Tuesday 1 , etc. I suppose it was good as you didnt miss lessons on a public holiday, for instance It just jumped to the timetable for the next day in rotation.
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#1065157 - Wed Sep 17 2014 08:23 AM Re: Homework - At what age did you start being set it? [Re: bloomsby]
Volmornu Offline
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Registered: Mon Sep 15 2014
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You mean "homework" as in schoolwork you had to take home, do there, and bring back to be graded?

Nearly every day since the first day of Kindergarten (I was four years old), and it usually took me hours to finish for various reasons. I went to school in New York City.


Edited by Volmornu (Wed Sep 17 2014 12:56 PM)
Edit Reason: Added what age I was.

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#1065186 - Wed Sep 17 2014 03:41 PM Re: Homework - At what age did you start being set it? [Re: Volmornu]
bloomsby Offline
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Registered: Sun Apr 29 2001
Posts: 3918
Loc: Norwich England UK            
Thanks for your contribution to this thread.

Quote:
You mean "homework" as in schoolwork you had to take home, do there, and bring back to be graded?


Yes, that's what I meant, but the work was not always graded. For example, sometimes it was a matter of reading something in order to contribute to a discussion.

I think that in my schooldays homework - that is pretty much the standard term in Britain - below age 8 was almost unheard of, and then only in private schools. The usual starting age for homework was 10 or 11. I have a hunch that in most of the U.S. the situation was broadly similar and that in at least one state there was even a law (?) at one time banning public sector schools from setting homework, except at senior high school level.

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#1065187 - Wed Sep 17 2014 04:07 PM Re: Homework - At what age did you start being set it? [Re: bloomsby]
MiraJane Offline
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Posts: 1148
Loc: New York USA
Originally Posted By: bloomsby


I think that in my schooldays homework - that is pretty much the standard term in Britain - below age 8 was almost unheard of, and then only in private schools. The usual starting age for homework was 10 or 11. I have a hunch that in most of the U.S. the situation was broadly similar and that in at least one state there was even a law (?) at one time banning public sector schools from setting homework, except at senior high school level.



Yes, according to the link below (provided by you on the first page of this discussion) in 1901, California passed a law "... that effectively abolished homework for those who attended kindergarten through the eighth grade."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homework#In_the_United_States


bloomsby? What was the correction notice that started this discussion?

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#1065193 - Wed Sep 17 2014 04:42 PM Re: Homework - At what age did you start being set it? [Re: MiraJane]
bloomsby Offline
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Loc: Norwich England UK            
Quote:
bloomsby? What was the correction notice that started this discussion?


As far as I remember, it was a quiz either on U.S. social history or a question on social history in a more general quiz. It asked about homework in the U.S. in the 1940s and 1950s. The answer given as correct in the quiz was that below senior high school level kids generally had little or no homework, and added that homework below about age 12+ was rare. (Some of the information was in the note rather than the answer).

A player sent in a correction notice saying that at that time (1940s and 1950s) large amounts of homework were common in the U.S. from age 10 onwards. I asked him for his source and he said his father, who had attended a public school in the 1940s and early 1950s, had told him that. I produced other sources that broadly supported the answer given in the quiz, but the "corrector" (if I may use that word) was unusually insistent that his father had been right. He was also very polite and civil. Obviously, by academic standards the father was a secondhand, unverifiable oral source and therefore not reliable. In my experience, in many such cases one or more important details are missing - for example, that it only applied in the last year of high school and/or that the school was private or in some other way unusual. (I'm leaving aside cases where oral information has simply been remembered inaccurately).

I thought it would not be right to put the actual quiz answer and correction in this forum but decided to ask a more general question about the issue. That is what prompted me to start this thread.

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#1065200 - Wed Sep 17 2014 04:57 PM Re: Homework - At what age did you start being set it? [Re: MiraJane]
MotherGoose Offline
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Registered: Mon Apr 22 2002
Posts: 4573
Loc: Western Australia
When I went to primary school (public school, Western Australia), we had homework from year 1 onwards but in the lower grades it mostly tended to be basic numeracy and literacy homework - i.e. reading, spelling and learning one's "times tables". Homework in other subjects like science and history didn't really start until high school.

My feeling is that homework should be banned in favour of children being able to play and spend more time with their families. I remember missing out on a lot of family functions because I had assignments to do. Homework takes up too much out-of-school time. Mum and Dad get home from work and relax while their children, having worked most of the day at school, continue to work on well into the night.

I think a much better system would be to have children attend school full-time (9 to 5) and all their school-based learning takes place within those hours with no homework.

There would be a number of advantages to this. For example, most parents work, so having children in school full-time would help with the problem of parents needing out-of-school daycare, and alleviate the current problem of older kids congregating at the shopping centres and malls after school.
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#1065333 - Thu Sep 18 2014 05:14 PM Re: Homework - At what age did you start being set it? [Re: MotherGoose]
bloomsby Offline
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Loc: Norwich England UK            
Quote:
I think a much better system would be to have children attend school full-time (9 to 5) and all their school-based learning takes place within those hours with no homework.



The times you mention are very close to those I had at primary school. After the first year school ran from just before 9am till 4.30pm, with a one-and-a-half hour break for lunch. Obviously, supervision was provided for the whole of the lunch-break for those who stayed at school for lunch. (There were jokes at the time about school providing a child-minding service for families where both parents worked full time).

There's a further point which is relevant. In my early school years (up to about age 7 or so) bedtime was much, much earlier than is nowadays the case for children in that age-group. On getting home after school I was given a solid high tea, then had an hour or so for play and time with my parents, and soon after 6pm I had to get ready for bed. It was generally 'lights out' by 7pm latest.

This timetable was important from my parents' point of view. At about 7pm my mother prepared or cooked supper and my parents ate at about 7.30pm. When I was that young my parents regarded the evenings as theirs. If my memory serves me correctly it wasn't till I was quite a bit older (age 10 or possibly a shade earlier) that I had supper together with my parents.


Edited to clarify a point.


Edited by bloomsby (Thu Sep 18 2014 05:16 PM)

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#1065531 - Fri Sep 19 2014 10:38 PM Re: Homework - At what age did you start being set it? [Re: bloomsby]
Jakeroo Offline
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Registered: Sat Aug 30 2008
Posts: 2063
Loc: Alberta Canada
Personally, I don't have an "issue" with kids being given homework (other than it probably shouldn't be "graded" until a certain grade level, but if there are no "assignments", where is the "gauge" on whether they're "getting" anything at all? (I mean other than "surprise tests" which are cruel lol). I had "homework" since the age of 4 as well, although most of it until grade 6 wouldn't have "failed" me on anything whatsoever. Usually any exercise related was called a "project", rather than "homework".

Not sure I understand completely about the other comments though. Should the school system itself be responsible for "babysitting" people's children, except for the maximum 3 hours per day in the parents' (which may not be directly interactive) company during which the child is not either eating, sleeping, taking a bath, talking on their iphones, playing on the internet, watching tv, or extracirricular activities like sports or music, or heaven forbid "playing outside" on their own lol? Also, when you say 9-5 "full time", is the implication that there should be no "breaks" during school, or that teachers are not allowed to take any vacation time? Should the school system (aka the "government") ALSO be made to feel responsible for what "trouble" kids may or may not get into AFTER school hours? Oh my....

In some families, perhaps SOME kids toil on for "hours" after "school" and hey, I applaud them (I'm guessing certain societies like Japan etc would approve of any extra hours spent as it would "appear" that there is a lot of pressure for kids to "do well" in general, or even folks from elsewhere perhaps who think their kid is going to get a scholarship to Harvard or whatever lol), right through supper doing homework, but I suspect that's not the reality most folks in first world countries/major cities live in. Nor countries who aren't as well off either, where the kids themselves toil on for hours for mere sustenance, rather than "homework".

Aside from "daycare", please add up the actual hours and please tell me exactly "who" is raising the children of today? lol

There is a difference between "wants" and "needs". In some places in the world, sure, both parents (if the family is lucky enough to have two) "need" to work in order to provide basic shelter, clothing and food. If you don't "need" a BMW then perhaps both don't have to work , or maybe both don't have to work FULL time. I also rather like home schooling as an alternative option instead of the suggestions listed above (assuming the parents are basically intelligent lol).

Your mileage (and your family) may certainly vary : )

p.s. as for "lunches", none of the schools I went to in "elementary" (grades 1 through 6) had cafeterias. The junior high school I went to in grade 9 did, but I never ate there. Couldn't afford it and besides, my mother packed me a much better lunch every day. My senior high schools (grades 10 through 12) didn't have a cafeteria either. Between 1960 and 1974, I went to 9 different schools (if you count kindergarten lol) in Canada because we moved so much. In elementary grades I walked between 1 and 3 miles at lunch break, depending what city/town we were in, to whatever household my mother had arranged/paid for me to go, since at that time, they didn't allow you to have lunch IN the school (this whole "lunch served by schools" in some parts of the world baffles me (unless the lunch is free as everyone needs fuel to burn the brain furnace and sadly, not every kid can afford to pay)


Edited by Jakeroo (Sat Sep 20 2014 02:36 PM)
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#1065687 - Sat Sep 20 2014 09:04 PM Re: Homework - At what age did you start being set it? [Re: Jakeroo]
MotherGoose Offline
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Registered: Mon Apr 22 2002
Posts: 4573
Loc: Western Australia
Why are school hours still 9 to 3? Most aspects of life have changed and advanced over the last century but school hours have remained the same for decades. If a teenaged apprentice can work 9 to 5, why can't high school students?

Quote:
when you say 9-5 "full time", is the implication that there should be no "breaks" during school, or that teachers are not allowed to take any vacation time?


Naturally with breaks - I would have thought that would be obvious. Nobody would expect kids to do a 6- or 8-hour day without breaks. I can't believe anybody would interpret "full-time" to mean the same as "no breaks" or "no vacation time".

Is it so radical to suggest that we extend the school day to 8 hours a day and incorporate what is now done as homework into that day? It could benefit teachers too as they would no longer have the burden of setting and marking homework in their "free time".

Quote:
Should the school system (aka the "government") ALSO be made to feel responsible for what "trouble" kids may or may not get into AFTER school hours?


Another inference and not what I said at all. The extra hours of supervision would benefit the community. No question about that. At the moment, the school is legally in loco parentis for an average of 6 hours per day. Changing that to an 8-hour day won't change anything in relation to who is responsible when kids get into trouble AFTER school hours.

I have no intention of digressing into all those other tangential areas raised, such as how children will spend their leisure and family time outside those eight hours of school (that's up to them and their parents) as they are purely speculative and not central to the issue of homework.


Edited by MotherGoose (Sat Sep 20 2014 09:06 PM)
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#1065691 - Sat Sep 20 2014 09:13 PM Re: Homework - At what age did you start being set it? [Re: MotherGoose]
MotherGoose Offline
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Registered: Mon Apr 22 2002
Posts: 4573
Loc: Western Australia
I don't know what the situation may be in other countries, but here in Western Australia, we have many teachers who are unemployed (especially new graduates). Another potential benefit of extending school hours (in lieu of homework) would be the potential to provide those teachers with employment.
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#1065721 - Sun Sep 21 2014 12:07 AM Re: Homework - At what age did you start being set it? [Re: bloomsby]
Creedy Offline
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Registered: Tue Aug 03 2010
Posts: 582
Loc: Coffs Harbour NSW Australia  
Extending school hours - and eliminating homework - seems like an excellent idea.

Possibly stay the same hours though for primary school children though - but no homework. In High School, extending the hours to 9-4 for the first years at High School perhaps, and then from 9-5 for the senior years, providing homework is still eliminated.

Poor high school kids have enough to deal with, with hormones scrambled all over the place, without then having to go home and start working all over again in a frantic attempt to catch up on the horrendous loads of homework being piled on them now. Learning/homework done in the group environment, ie the classroom, with back and forth discussion - and a teacher to monitor its progress - would be superb. Many parents do not have the specific subject skills and knowledge to help their children in this manner.

Of course lunch breaks and morning and afternoon tea breaks would continue to be provided, Jakeroo - rather peculiar to suggest otherwise. There's nothing Dickensian about that today, nor would it be so in the future.

These breaks already exist - not only for schoolchildren but for working adults as well.

Primary school children should be home with their families and friends after school, whenever possible, to play and socialise. Learning also occurs at these times, but of a different kind. It's really important in fact that they have that play time - and just as important to continue forming and solidifying their niche in the family environment. Not sitting and stressing out trying to make models of the Taj Mahal, for example, and then writing a ten page essay on its architectural features and so on. And that's just for ONE subject.

I have rather an aversion to seeing children, holding their heads in their hands, stressed out beyond all measure, and crying helplessly because they simply can't cope with the amount of homework being given to them today.

Your comment about teachers being responsible for the trouble kids can get into etc also puzzles me, Jakeroo. If children are in a controlled enjoyable learning environment, they're hardly going to be out breaking shop windows. If teachers are being paid for working those same hours, and WITHOUT spending endless hours of their own time marking homework assignments, then it's a win-win situation all around.

We live in an age where both parents, if a child is lucky to have same, are forced to work to meet the ever increasing costs of living. Children, as a result, often go home to empty homes after school. That's when the trouble starts if there's going to be trouble. A child is supposed to sit down then and start working voluntarily on the mounds of homework being dished out? Not likely. They're kids - and unsupervised kids have a tendency to get up to mischief.

Far better if they have NO homework, but remain at school for a while longer every time to deal with its replacement - and then go home to parents or guardians, some play and leisure time, and a relatively stress free afternoon and night.

A student who wishes to learn more then has the option of choosing to do so his or herself. When that choice is theirs, you can bet your sweet blackboard that learning will be taking place at a far greater rate than if that learning becomes compulsory.

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#1065735 - Sun Sep 21 2014 12:34 AM Re: Homework - At what age did you start being set it? [Re: bloomsby]
Mommakat Offline
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Registered: Sat May 09 2009
Posts: 65
Loc: Mandurah Western Australia    
That Creedy, is a very intelligent and well thought answer by someone who I suspect knows what she is talking about, like MotherGoose, and not someone who just has an opinion and is going to spout it to everyone come what may.

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#1065739 - Sun Sep 21 2014 12:43 AM Re: Homework - At what age did you start being set it? [Re: Mommakat]
MotherGoose Offline
Multiloquent

Registered: Mon Apr 22 2002
Posts: 4573
Loc: Western Australia
Creedy, you have expressed my sentiments beautifully - much better than I could have.

I feel quite strongly about the homework issue having experienced it from all points of view - as a student myself (who spent hours and hours doing homework and, as stated previously, missing out on family time as a result), as a teacher (who spent hours and hours of my "free time" marking homework that I was required to set), and as a parent (who objected to the amount of, and nature of, a lot of the assigned homework that my daughter had to do).


Edited by MotherGoose (Sun Sep 21 2014 12:51 AM)
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#1065746 - Sun Sep 21 2014 12:52 AM Re: Homework - At what age did you start being set it? [Re: bloomsby]
MiraJane Offline
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Registered: Tue Apr 30 2013
Posts: 1148
Loc: New York USA
In New York State, children 14 and 15 can work a maximum of 28 hours per week and no more than

More than 3 hours on any school day
More than 8 hours on a Saturday or a non-school day
More than 18 hours in any week
More than 6 days in any week


For 17 & 18 yrs old the restrictions are a maximum of4 hours per day on a day preceding a school day, 8 hours a day on the other days of the week and no more than 28 hours a week. I'm mentioning this because of MotherGoose's comment of how teenager apprentices work 9-5. Not here they don't.

Having an entire school district having the same hours for every grade level would not work where I live. There are too many students to move around for them all to be on buses at the same time. Furthermore, hours of 9-5 for school would still leave children without that adult supervision that seems to be so needed. Parents commute to work, sometimes more than an hour each way. Or do you propose the schools offer babysitters for the parents that leave for work at 7am or earlier?

Additionally, many students are involved in after school activities be they religious instruction (which is *not* done on public school property), a scouting group, sports, music lessons, dance lessons, etc. When would those take place? In place of the family dinner hour? While the economy of the last few years has made it more difficult, many upper level high school students do have after school jobs. They do this not for fun but because the family may need the money, to pay for extras they want and their parents don't feel are necessary (like clothing, their own phone bill, a car) or to save for college/university.

Standard 9-5 school hours for all may work in some places but not over here where I live.

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