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#1142858 - Sat Aug 20 2016 12:15 AM Who's the Expert victory not appearing
gracious1 Offline
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Registered: Tue May 01 2012
Posts: 952
Loc: New York USA
I won the last hour's set for "Movie Taglines" in "Who's the Expert", but for some reason it is not showing up in my "Who's the Expert" list of victories.

Here's the screenshot of the page showing my win in the 111-300 division:

http://s6.postimg.org/eqfkpnd81/Picture_21.png

But in my list of Expert victories, it should be between "Mountains & Volcanoes" and "Music from TV and Movies", but it's not there.

http://s6.postimg.org/u33wxf1rl/Picture_22.png

The hour I won the set was the one ending at 11:45pm FunTrivia time.

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#1142861 - Sat Aug 20 2016 01:16 AM Re: Who's the Expert victory not appearing [Re: gracious1]
rossian Online   content
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Registered: Sat Jun 10 2006
Posts: 2218
Loc: Merseyside UK 
Quote:
11 PM Movie Taglines 1995Tarpon 1000-1000 37
11 PM Movie Taglines Lenny15 41-300 70
11 PM Movie Taglines gmd1977 1-40 5


According to this, it seems your division was not kept separate, so the winner was Lenny15 from the combined division of 41-300.

It happens sometimes and is frustrating.
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#1142863 - Sat Aug 20 2016 01:25 AM Re: Who's the Expert victory not appearing [Re: gracious1]
MrNobody97 Offline
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Registered: Sun Dec 28 2014
Posts: 160
Loc: Illinois USA
[never mind, someone else since addressed the matter]


Edited by MrNobody97 (Sat Aug 20 2016 01:25 AM)

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#1142877 - Sat Aug 20 2016 10:05 AM Re: Who's the Expert victory not appearing [Re: gracious1]
gracious1 Offline
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Registered: Tue May 01 2012
Posts: 952
Loc: New York USA
What? This means I'm cheated out of this? This isn't right. Please help me with this, Terry.


Edited by gracious1 (Sat Aug 20 2016 10:09 AM)

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#1142880 - Sat Aug 20 2016 11:15 AM Re: Who's the Expert victory not appearing [Re: gracious1]
namrewsna Offline
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Registered: Wed Jul 16 2014
Posts: 316
Loc: Utah USA
No..it is an established pattern. For the hours 11:00 pm through 6:00 am FT time (so the expert games that start at 10:45 through the one that starts at 5:45), when traffic is lower on the site..the upper 4 divisions get merged into one, ostensibly to try and avoid the issue of having too few players to produce the minimum number of 5 needed to consider it a valid round of play.

The past results can be seen in several different ways which creates the visual discrepancy you noticed here where the lists found under the link "last hours results" still splits it out into the "daytime" divisions during the merged hours. These are meaningless lists though during the hours in question as the true division of consequence is the merged supergroup 41-300. You were no more cheated than the phantom winners of the 41-60, 61-80, and 81-110 groups....(excepting of course whoever of those three was the highest since they won the true division at that time, 41-300) It is frustrating when, as in this case that happens and your regular division had enough players to stand alone but it would be cumbersome to have it vary on and off that way based on how many do or don't show up


Edited by namrewsna (Sat Aug 20 2016 11:22 AM)

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#1142881 - Sat Aug 20 2016 11:52 AM Re: Who's the Expert victory not appearing [Re: gracious1]
Barbarini Online   content
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Registered: Sat Sep 04 2010
Posts: 369
Loc: Alberta Canada
Originally Posted By: gracious1
What? This means I'm cheated out of this? This isn't right. Please help me with this, Terry.


It's happened to me as well, gracious. I'm sure Terry has a logarithm or two hidden up his sleeve that would fix that little problem in a jiffy. Terry?

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#1142882 - Sat Aug 20 2016 12:49 PM Re: Who's the Expert victory not appearing [Re: gracious1]
Terry Online   FT-blank

Head Honcho

Registered: Wed Dec 31 1969
Posts: 19069
Loc: USA
There's no fundamental problem here -- during certain hours there are more divisions than others. It has been that way for 12 years or so.

Maybe there's a display issue where it says there are more divisions than there actually are at the point where the change happens?

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#1142883 - Sat Aug 20 2016 01:01 PM Re: Who's the Expert victory not appearing [Re: gracious1]
namrewsna Offline
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Registered: Wed Jul 16 2014
Posts: 316
Loc: Utah USA
During the hours with a reduced number of divisions, on the "Last hour's scores" page you can manually cycle through any of the regular daytime division groupings which are dormant and I do not believe it offers a combined listing for levels 41-300. That goes for the entire span of reduced divisions not just the switchover hours.


Edited by namrewsna (Sat Aug 20 2016 01:06 PM)

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#1142884 - Sat Aug 20 2016 01:29 PM Re: Who's the Expert victory not appearing [Re: gracious1]
flopsymopsy Offline
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Registered: Sat May 17 2008
Posts: 3496
Loc: Northampton England UK      
Terry, what happens is... you go to Expert and several divisions are displayed; you are automatically assigned to the division covering your level. You play the game and are at the top of your division when the game switches to the next hour so you think you've won. However, when you check the scores for the previous hour the division you played in has disappeared, amalgamated retrospectively with the next one down (or more) and the player who got a higher score in that other division gets the win. I think it's the retrospective bit that upsets people.
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#1142885 - Sat Aug 20 2016 01:35 PM Re: Who's the Expert victory not appearing [Re: gracious1]
Terry Online   FT-blank

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Registered: Wed Dec 31 1969
Posts: 19069
Loc: USA
Ahhh... maybe that can be fixed by moving the switch ahead a few minutes after the top of the hour. That way when the game calculates scores, it uses the old divisions. I think what happens right now is that the divisions change at, say 4:00:00, but the scoring for the previous hour happens at 4:00:10. So, it uses the NEW divisions for the scoring of last hour.

A bit of a time tweak should fix that issue.

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#1142887 - Sat Aug 20 2016 02:18 PM Re: Who's the Expert victory not appearing [Re: gracious1]
WesleyCrusher Offline

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Registered: Thu Sep 04 2008
Posts: 4410
Loc: Germany
The issue (which is is rather frequently reported) is purely a display one. The winners are calculated correctly and the "winners" list is correct in stating who wins.

However there is also the "Last Hour" display and that one shows a wrong scoreboard during the two hours that directly follow the change between night and day divisions, due to how these are coded.

Assuming my own level (172) and non-champ status on the current topic, during daytime I see the 111 to 300 division. At night, I see the combined 41 to 300 one.

Let's now assume I play a game during the last "night" hour. The game is played and scored as 41 to 300. The winners' list reflects that. Now, however, when I come back to check during the following hour, the lists are shown by the then valid daytime divisions and thus I see the 111 to 300 one. So far, so good. But now, when I hit "last hour's scores" to see how I did, I do get the page under this link:

http://www.funtrivia.com/expert/lasthour.cfm?levlow=111&levhigh=300 (note the part in red...)

That's a result list for a game that was never played in this way! That game was played in a 41 to 300 division, not an 111-300 one. The result list might show me as the winner, but if anyone between levels 41 and 110 had a higher score, I did (correctly) not win that hour.

The fix would be to ensure the link to lasthour.cfm always gets the correct boundaries, i.e. it needs to be generated from the division data valid for the previous hour (and of course match the player's actual level). (Maybe an easier way to code it would be to add a "timeswitch=1" parameter during these 2 hours and do the fixing in lasthour.cfm - that would probably give an easy out to also using the correct division selector menu in these cases).

A similar but lesser problem (easily fixed by the player) appears when I play a topic I am champ in and then next hour check from a non-champ roster or vice versa - a simple click on the "last hour" link shows the scoreboard for a division I did not play. In this case, of course, I can simply choose the correct one.


Edited by WesleyCrusher (Sat Aug 20 2016 02:19 PM)
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#1142891 - Sat Aug 20 2016 03:05 PM Re: Who's the Expert victory not appearing [Re: gracious1]
flopsymopsy Offline
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Registered: Sat May 17 2008
Posts: 3496
Loc: Northampton England UK      
I'm not sure that Wes is completely correct. Normally, if the divisions are amalgamated, I can see that is the case and know I am playing across many 'normal' divisions. But if I arrive at the Expert page and it tells me there are, say, five divisions + Champions and I am in the one for 111-300, then I don't expect that division to be amalgamated with divisions 61-80 and 81-110 after I've played and before the scoring is done. If at the end of the game I am shown at the top of the scoring for 111-300 then that should be a win for me but it's not, I don't get the win which is instead given to Joe Bloggs, who was playing in 61-89. True, when I look at the scoresheet it shows our divisions were amalgamated but they weren't when I was playing. If there's a display error it's in the list at the beginning of the hour - I should know what division I'm playing in when I start.
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#1142894 - Sat Aug 20 2016 03:26 PM Re: Who's the Expert victory not appearing [Re: gracious1]
mehaul Offline
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Registered: Wed Feb 03 2010
Posts: 6234
Loc: Florida USA
I back up a bit and wonder: why do we have day and night different divisions? This is a world wide site. Leave the level brackets alone. If some corner of the world isn't getting enough players, why add complication to the operation of the game? Push them to find more players, don't penalize the players already playing elsewhere. Leave the levels one way throughout the day and this level recognition switching problem goes away.
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#1142906 - Sat Aug 20 2016 07:30 PM Re: Who's the Expert victory not appearing [Re: gracious1]
namrewsna Offline
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Registered: Wed Jul 16 2014
Posts: 316
Loc: Utah USA
Traffic does still slow down a bit in the wee hours of FT time. It isnt like you don't get to play...you just have to play against a wider field. There is no perfect solution here...either it is going to be easier in the FT night if all divisions are left open all day....or Harderat night..as it tends to be now. At least this way the chance of a win that doesnt register due to lack of players is diminished to almost nil.

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#1142907 - Sat Aug 20 2016 08:06 PM Re: Who's the Expert victory not appearing [Re: gracious1]
gracious1 Offline
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Registered: Tue May 01 2012
Posts: 952
Loc: New York USA
I agree with flopsymopsy and disagree with Wesley. The winner's list is not showing the correct winner. I know who I played against in that hour. I was watching the display throughout the hour. When I played, I was #1 in the 111-300 division from the time I played until 11:45. I know, because I kept checking back to see how things stood. Then suddenly, when I should have gotten a new entry in my Expert Victories list, it did not appear.

So then I went back to see who beat me at the last second. Well, nobody did. I was still #1 in 111-300 division in which I played.

I did not play against the person who is displayed as the winner (see the extract quoted by rossian, above). That person Lenny15 played in a different division from mine. I was listed as number 1 throughout the hour in the division 111-300. As I say, I was watching it.

My scenario is the exact opposite of what Wesley is describing. I played in the 111-300 division. That was the division displayed during the play, and afterward, in the "Preivous Hour's Score". I won that division.

If there is any re-bracketing of divisions it should be done at the top of the hour, not at the bottom.

What Terry said in his post, that is the correct assessment of the situation.

I am not asking for the sun and the moon, just the listing in my profile of the Expert victory that I won fair and square.

Thanks.
-G.


P.S. This is what the line would like if it had been added correctly:
Movie Taglines (as level 165, beat 22 players) Aug 19 16 - 11:45 PM


Edited by gracious1 (Sat Aug 20 2016 08:14 PM)

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#1142911 - Sat Aug 20 2016 08:28 PM Re: Who's the Expert victory not appearing [Re: gracious1]
DireWolf74 Offline
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Registered: Mon Jun 28 2010
Posts: 149
Loc: The lost moon of Poosh
Except you didn't win. The divisions were combined to be levels 41-300 just like it shows on the "Winners" page if you look right now. Lenny15 had a better score than you.

11 PM Movie Taglines 1995Tarpon 1000-1000 37
11 PM Movie Taglines Lenny15 41-300 70
11 PM Movie Taglines gmd1977 1-40 5

Like Terry said, it's only been set up this way for 12 years. You've never noticed this before?

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#1142913 - Sat Aug 20 2016 09:14 PM Re: Who's the Expert victory not appearing [Re: gracious1]
MiraJane Offline
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Registered: Tue Apr 30 2013
Posts: 1140
Loc: New York USA
Lenny15 won another Expert topic in the expanded division? Good for him!

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#1142914 - Sat Aug 20 2016 09:33 PM Re: Who's the Expert victory not appearing [Re: DireWolf74]
gracious1 Offline
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Registered: Tue May 01 2012
Posts: 952
Loc: New York USA
Originally Posted By: DireWolf74
Except you didn't win. The divisions were combined to be levels 41-300 just like it shows on the "Winners" page if you look right now. Lenny15 had a better score than you.

11 PM Movie Taglines 1995Tarpon 1000-1000 37
11 PM Movie Taglines Lenny15 41-300 70
11 PM Movie Taglines gmd1977 1-40 5


Except I did win. Those were not the divisions in the hour I played. I did not play in the 41-300 division; I played in the 111-300 division, and I had the highest score. As I said, I checked back every few minutes or so throughout the rest of hour just to see if anyone had pulled ahead of me. During that time my name was highlighted in yellow as the the number 1 player in the 111-300 division. I beat the other 22 people in my division.

Originally Posted By: DireWolf74
Like Terry said, it's only been set up this way for 12 years. You've never noticed this before?


Never noticed what before? That the divisions get re-combined after 11:45 pm? Yes, of course. That the recombination happens a split-second before your hour of play is up, so that you suddenly find yourself compared to people whom you had not actually played against and get cheated out of your victory? No, that hasn't happened to me before to my knowledge. (But of course, it may have happened when I wasn't looking. There's no way to tell) I certainly will be vigilant about it from now on.

Perhaps I wasn't clear in the previous post. There was no 41-300 Division when I played. I played in the 111-300 Division. The only place where that 41-300 showed up was in the "Winner's List". It didn't show up on the Who's The Expert page between 10:45 and 11:45, which is when I played. And it didn't show up in the "Previous Hour Scores" (or whatever it is called), which screenshot I provided in an earlier post.

If I had known this was going to be a problem, I certainly would have taken a screenshot of the then-current Who's the Expert page that showed my name as highlighted in yellow in the number 1 position in the 111-300 Division.

(But I think my screenshot of 111-300 in the Previous Hours Scores should be proof enough that I am telling the truth.)

The only problem I knew about was the opposite (come to think of it, what Wesley described): That you might find yourself listed in the 41-300 league in the Previous Hour Scores, but get a win (correctly) listed in your Expert Victories list for having defeated the competition in your 61-85 or 86-110 or whatever your particular division happened to be, the one you actually played in.

But my problem is the inverse. I won a victory in the smaller division (111-300), but (apparently) got dumped into the larger division (41-300) at the end of the hour and did not get my victory correctly listed on my Expert Victories list.

Terry's assessment of the problem and the solution, again, is correct:
Originally Posted By: Terry
Ahhh... maybe that can be fixed by moving the switch ahead a few minutes after the top of the hour. That way when the game calculates scores, it uses the old divisions. I think what happens right now is that the divisions change at, say 4:00:00, but the scoring for the previous hour happens at 4:00:10. So, it uses the NEW divisions for the scoring of last hour.


This is absolutely right on! The previous hour's divisions should be the ones used, as the previous hour is the one we played in, after all. The current hour's divisions (or topics or players) have no bearing on the previous hour.

In the meantime, since I can provide proof of my win, I would be very grateful if the matter could be corrected and my victory counted. Thanks. Cheers. Peace.

G.



Edited by gracious1 (Sat Aug 20 2016 09:35 PM)
Edit Reason: removed stray typos

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#1142915 - Sat Aug 20 2016 09:39 PM Re: Who's the Expert victory not appearing [Re: DireWolf74]
flopsymopsy Offline
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Registered: Sat May 17 2008
Posts: 3496
Loc: Northampton England UK      
Originally Posted By: DireWolf74
Except you didn't win. The divisions were combined to be levels 41-300 just like it shows on the "Winners" page if you look right now. Lenny15 had a better score than you.

11 PM Movie Taglines 1995Tarpon 1000-1000 37
11 PM Movie Taglines Lenny15 41-300 70
11 PM Movie Taglines gmd1977 1-40 5

Like Terry said, it's only been set up this way for 12 years. You've never noticed this before?


It's happened to me quite a few times and I have reported it before, more than once. I knew I was never going to get awarded the win because I assume the scores wouldn't be kept and I don't really care but you can't say I didn't win - I won in the division I was shown to be playing in when I started to play, while I was playing, and right up to the point when the hour ticked over and a new game was launched.

It's a bit like starting a 100m race, running as fast as you can and beating everyone to win the gold only to be told that the race had been amalgamated with two other races and you'd lost to someone else. Fair enough if you knew the races would be amalgamated, not very fair if you had been told something different from start to finish. We're not talking about the usual amalgamated divisions that are listed in Expert during some under-populated hours, but about divisions which are amalagamated after the game is over - I don't think anyone cares about the former but the latter produces an odd result.
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#1142921 - Sat Aug 20 2016 10:35 PM Re: Who's the Expert victory not appearing [Re: flopsymopsy]
gracious1 Offline
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Registered: Tue May 01 2012
Posts: 952
Loc: New York USA
Originally Posted By: flopsymopsy
It's a bit like starting a 100m race, running as fast as you can and beating everyone to win the gold only to be told that the race had been amalgamated with two other races and you'd lost to someone else. Fair enough if you knew the races would be amalgamated, not very fair if you had been told something different from start to finish.


Yes, that is the perfect analogy. That describes this situation to a T. Well said.

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#1142924 - Sat Aug 20 2016 11:11 PM Re: Who's the Expert victory not appearing [Re: gracious1]
namrewsna Offline
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Registered: Wed Jul 16 2014
Posts: 316
Loc: Utah USA
Except it is more like the race was run with a hedgerow between lanes for the entire length of the track. and only at the end when the hedge subsided did you see the other runners. This is only a subtly different analogy but the point is it was never actually four separate races, it was just erroneously reported as such.
The 11:45-12:44 set has been the first hour with three divisions, apparently since the dawn of FT time. The reporting discrepancy is unfortunate, and looking at this hour, has apparently already been fixed. (I saw 41-300 both before and after playing it) We will have to look and see after the set expires if the last hour score report shows six divisions or just three.


Edited by namrewsna (Sat Aug 20 2016 11:17 PM)

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#1142925 - Sat Aug 20 2016 11:39 PM Re: Who's the Expert victory not appearing [Re: gracious1]
Barbarini Online   content
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Registered: Sat Sep 04 2010
Posts: 369
Loc: Alberta Canada
Exactly flopsy. You're up early. Do you have cows to milk or something? wink

I'm looking at the results for the last hour's Expert, Spelling Bee. There were 24 players in the last Champions division. The "All" list on the last hour's score doesn't even include the Champions list which shows skatersarehott as the winner of that group. Is there a reason it's been excluded from the "All" list?

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#1142926 - Sun Aug 21 2016 12:26 AM Re: Who's the Expert victory not appearing [Re: gracious1]
DireWolf74 Offline
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Registered: Mon Jun 28 2010
Posts: 149
Loc: The lost moon of Poosh
My understanding was that the divisions were combined but it just wasn't displayed that way when you first click on the Who's the Expert page to play. I'm pretty sure that if the game was systematically cheating players out of wins then Terry would have fixed it a long long time ago. But it's all moot now as the game is displaying the correct 41-300 division at this hour, so the situation has been remedied.

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#1142934 - Sun Aug 21 2016 08:21 AM Re: Who's the Expert victory not appearing [Re: Barbarini]
flopsymopsy Offline
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Registered: Sat May 17 2008
Posts: 3496
Loc: Northampton England UK      
Originally Posted By: Barbarini
Exactly flopsy. You're up early. Do you have cows to milk or something? wink


You know I'm a junkie; I do what I can to resist but I relapse occasionally. I blame the BBC - if they didn't show everything live and on demand I'd get to bed earlier but no, every few years they force me to look at things I know about then force me to cheer people doing things I never heard of, sometimes with sticks. My name is flopsy and I'm an Olympics addict. grin

Originally Posted By: DireWolf74
But it's all moot now as the game is displaying the correct 41-300 division at this hour, so the situation has been remedied.


You don't know that. I've only ever experienced the problem during daylight hours, European time, and certainly not in the middle of the night.
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#1142935 - Sun Aug 21 2016 08:49 AM Re: Who's the Expert victory not appearing [Re: gracious1]
mehaul Offline
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Registered: Wed Feb 03 2010
Posts: 6234
Loc: Florida USA
If I recall correctly, the divisions haven't been this way since the beginning. They were expanded and otherwise redivided at different levels as players reached the 100 level and then the 200 level, then to a 300 level and now the 1000 level.

If there is a noted lack of participants in certain levels and so not enough scores are registered to make a winner count, the question must be asked, "Why does there have to be a minimum number of players anyway?" For Badges? Here have a badge. But put an asterisk on the badge to distinguish it from badges earned with a larger compliment of participants. IOW, tier the badge not the competition.
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