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#155101 - Thu Jan 30 2003 01:05 PM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
ace_sodium Offline
Prolific

Registered: Mon Sep 16 2002
Posts: 1168
Loc: India
Genocide?

The people of IRAQ are not heard, when they say there are happy under Saddam Hussain, we assume that they are lying!
Genocide of Kurdish people - well as per the current deinition of "terrorism", aren't they fighting against a "legitimate" Iraqi government? and spreading terror amongst the Iraqi people?
It is only appropriate that the U.N inspectors are given ample time, and if and only if THEY FIND any weapons of mass destruction (not empty warheads dating to Jurassic age), should any action be taken.
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I am slightly deviating from the topic

I have a lingering doubt : what is a rogue state? how do you differentiate? By U.S policies and statements, it seems a rogue state is one where
1) there is a dictatorship (or non-democratic form of government)
2) has weapons of mass destruction
3) has a weakening economy (due to which they are forced to sell these weapons to terrorists)
4) has any active record of aiding terrorism.

Now, by these standards, isn't Pakistan (an U.S ally) a rogue state?
before 9/11, they had a active record of supporting Taliban
Even now, they are siding terrorists in kashmir and has allegedly sold nuclear secrets and equipment to North Korea!
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#155102 - Thu Jan 30 2003 01:34 PM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
rudogg Offline
Explorer

Registered: Sat Dec 14 2002
Posts: 60
Loc: dayton ohio
Good points Ace... Perhaps we should look at the mission of the "inspectors" as defined by the U.N. resolution. The inspectors main mission is not to discover any WMD, but to verify that the Iraqi government has destroyed the weapons that they had in their possession. To date, the verification of this by the Iraqi government is murky at best, bordering on outright deception. I believe there will be clear cut evidence of this presented to the U.N. this coming week.

As for your description of the Pakistani situation, I agree with you. If the government is doing the things you say, I'm sure that will be dealt with in due time.
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#155103 - Thu Jan 30 2003 02:29 PM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
DieHard Offline
Prolific

Registered: Wed Oct 10 2001
Posts: 1127
Loc: Louisiana USA
No doubt the Serbs committed war atrocities; they are well documented. But the Croats and Muslims were not without their own excesses. That dispute was brewing for nearly a century. War is ugly. The UN spent as much time sabotaging the Balkan peace process as it did trying to stop any genocide. I have no love for Milosevic but I also don't see one side as any better than the other. I never understood our involvement other than that Clinton abdicated his responsibility as commander in chief to the UN.

http://www.balkanpeace.org/wcs/wct/wcts/wcts29.shtml

We also know that Hussein has engaged in his own genocide. There are African regimes that are committing genocide as we speak yet we do nothing. I don't see much difference between Milosevic and Hussein other than we know Saddam is willing to arm terrorists with biological/chemical/nuclear weapons for use on the North American continent and with the express purpose of killing hundreds of thousands of American civilians. I have made it clear that I have reservations about whether an invasion of Iraq is the right answer but let's not pretend that we were so righteous in the Balkans but are nothing but an evil aggressor now. Maybe someone can convince me that we were more justified to war against Milosevic than we are to topple Hussein. Right now, the opposite appears to be true--not that I want to go to war.
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#155104 - Fri Jan 31 2003 04:15 PM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
snm Offline
Mainstay

Registered: Thu Jan 30 2003
Posts: 901
Loc: Israel
Quote:

Maybe a little isolationism is in order perhaps??



Does anyone in their right mind truly believe that the US can survive if the rest of the world crumbles around it?
The US must intervene in all foreign affairs that could have a lasting effect on the world, because like it or not, the US is the leader of the world. Not just the free world. The whole world.
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"Talk is cheap, arms are not"- Victor Davis Hanson

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#155105 - Fri Jan 31 2003 04:30 PM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
DieHard Offline
Prolific

Registered: Wed Oct 10 2001
Posts: 1127
Loc: Louisiana USA
I was being facetious. Take a look around the forums and you will see much criticism of the U.S. for its intervention throughout the world....yet no one seems to mind taking the American foreign aid and then crying that they shouldn't be expected to pay it back.
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In the truest sense, freedom cannot be bestowed; it must be achieved. - FDR

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#155106 - Fri Jan 31 2003 05:16 PM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
Coolupway Offline
Prolific

Registered: Mon Aug 26 2002
Posts: 1131
Yes,, especially a certain Western European nation... its name slips my mind... that can't bash and sneer at the U.S. enough, yet somehow is quite happy (albeit temporarily) for our assistance when the spike-heads roll through every fifty years or so. What IS the name of that place?

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#155107 - Fri Jan 31 2003 06:25 PM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
snm Offline
Mainstay

Registered: Thu Jan 30 2003
Posts: 901
Loc: Israel
Could you possibly mean the one I mentioned in a different thread just yesterday? You know, the one that has a habit of surrendering before the first shot is fired?
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#155108 - Fri Jan 31 2003 06:29 PM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
Coolupway Offline
Prolific

Registered: Mon Aug 26 2002
Posts: 1131
Yes, the one whose ambassador to London recently referred to a certain non-Islamic Middle Eastern state as a "sh-tty little country."

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#155109 - Fri Jan 31 2003 07:16 PM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
snm Offline
Mainstay

Registered: Thu Jan 30 2003
Posts: 901
Loc: Israel
It's a good thing this nobel Western European nation only developed this great sense of hatred towards this sh*tty little country after they gave it The Bomb
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#155110 - Fri Jan 31 2003 07:49 PM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
DieHard Offline
Prolific

Registered: Wed Oct 10 2001
Posts: 1127
Loc: Louisiana USA
Be careful or we are going to have a thread on anti-"Western European nation that is known for its pastries and wrought-iron erection" sentiments.
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#155111 - Fri Jan 31 2003 09:54 PM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
StraightXXXEdge Offline
Participant

Registered: Tue Jan 14 2003
Posts: 24
Is it fr-- ohhhhhh I get the game uh... yes... this country is very... surrenderful... garshdarn it I got nothing! Though they do have a nice little territory in Canada!
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#155112 - Fri Jan 31 2003 11:49 PM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
Geek Offline
Mainstay

Registered: Mon Feb 14 2000
Posts: 622
Loc: Minnesota U.S.A.
While Iraq is certianly a concern, I'd like to see Bush go after some other pressing issues such as: finding who is responsible for the anthrax letters, finding Osama Bin Laden, and North Korea (we're searching for a smoking gun in Iraq while N. Korea seems to be "loading a gun" in plain sight.
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#155113 - Tue Feb 04 2003 03:42 AM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
Maynooth Offline
Forum Adept

Registered: Mon Jan 20 2003
Posts: 114
Loc: Western Australia
I'm just wondering what the criteria are for being allowed to have WMDs?

USA, France, UK, Russia (exUSSR), India, Pakistan, China, Korea.
I guess they must have proved they know how to use them responsibly.

cheers
Maynooth
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#155114 - Tue Feb 04 2003 07:21 AM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
snm Offline
Mainstay

Registered: Thu Jan 30 2003
Posts: 901
Loc: Israel
Most of these countries have had these weapons for a while, and nothing can be done about it now. The point now is not to add to that list of countries.
That aside, let me add this: WMDs are less dangerous in the hands of democracies than they are in the hands of dictators (that is why Pakistan is such a problem, and also why the whole world should be thankful for the fact that India is a nuclear power).
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#155115 - Tue Feb 04 2003 08:30 AM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
Maynooth Offline
Forum Adept

Registered: Mon Jan 20 2003
Posts: 114
Loc: Western Australia
If I remember correctly no dictatorship has detonated a nuclear device in anger.
A couple were detonated by the greatest democracy in the world.
It just depends if you consider chemical and biological weapons as WMD. I which case most university chem students have capabilities.

cheers
Maynooth
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The race is long and in the end it is only with ones self.

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#155116 - Tue Feb 04 2003 09:24 AM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
snm Offline
Mainstay

Registered: Thu Jan 30 2003
Posts: 901
Loc: Israel
WWII was almost 60 years ago. In this day and age the chances of a nuclear weapon being set off by a dictator, who makes decisions on his own, are much greater than the chances of a nuclear weapon being set off by a democracy.
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"Talk is cheap, arms are not"- Victor Davis Hanson

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#155117 - Tue Feb 04 2003 06:39 PM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
Callybub Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: Sat Sep 08 2001
Posts: 365
Loc: Waterford Ireland      
I will not go into the issue in any detail at the moment other than to say that Maynooth, you, for my part at least, have read my mind.
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#155118 - Tue Feb 04 2003 06:48 PM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
wez Offline
Multiloquent

Registered: Sun Sep 30 2001
Posts: 2521
Loc: Norwich
England UK        
Quote:

If I remember correctly no dictatorship has detonated a nuclear device in anger.





As of the 5th of February 2003.
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#155119 - Tue Feb 04 2003 07:41 PM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
ace_sodium Offline
Prolific

Registered: Mon Sep 16 2002
Posts: 1168
Loc: India
Pakistan - that's a riot (they just borrowed two missiles from China after the Pokhran tests were conducted by India)

Anyways back to the topic - the sign of irresponsibility with respect to Nuclear, Chemical or Biological weapons is when you don't agree to the No-first use.
If I am not wrong, U.S of A hasn't agreed on this count with respect to Nuclear weapons = meaning she will be more inclined to 'hurl' a nuke at a country to resolve disputes.
( Pakistan amongst the nuke-countries also hasn't agreed to a no-first use clause).

isn't that (having and more than willing to use it) more dangerous than merely having one?
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#155120 - Thu Feb 06 2003 07:41 AM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
Bertho Offline
Mainstay

Registered: Fri Oct 04 2002
Posts: 974
Loc: Queensland Australia
Terry Jones (Python) observations that appeared in a newspaper. Someone emailed it to me - just a tad of irony... funny but sad - worth sharing.

I'm really excited by George Bush's latest reason for bombing Iraq: he's running out of patience. And so am I! For some time now I've been really pissed off with Mr Johnson, who lives a couple of doors down the street.

Well, him and Mr Patel, who runs the health food shop. They both give me queer looks, and I'm sure Mr Johnson is planning something nasty for me, but so far I haven't been able to discover what. I've been round to his place a few times to see what he's up to, but he's got everything well hidden. That's how devious he is.

As for Mr Patel, don't ask me how I know, I just know - from very good sources - that he is, in reality, a Mass Murderer. I have leafleted the street telling them that if we don't act first, he'll pick us off one by one.

Some of my neighbours say, if I've got proof, why don't I go to the police? But that's simply ridiculous. The police will say that they need evidence of a crime with which to charge my neighbours. They'll come up with endless red tape and quibbling about the rights and wrongs of a pre-emptive strike and all the while Mr Johnson will be finalising his plans to do terrible things to me, while Mr Patel will be secretly murdering people. Since I'm the only one in the street with a decent range of automatic firearms, I reckon it's up to me to keep the peace. But until recently that's been a little difficult. Now, however, George W. Bush has made it clear that all I need to do is run out of patience, and then I can wade in and do whatever I want!

And let's face it, Mr Bush's carefully thought-out policy towards Iraq is the only way to bring about international peace and security. The one certain way to stop Muslim fundamentalist suicide bombers targeting the US or the UK is to bomb a few Muslim countries that have never threatened us. That's why I want to blow up Mr Johnson's garage and kill his wife and children. Strike first! That'll teach him a lesson. Then he'll leave us in peace and stop peering at me in that totally unacceptable way.

Mr Bush makes it clear that all he needs to know before bombing Iraq is that Saddam is a really nasty man and that he has weapons of mass destruction - even if no one can find them. I'm certain I've just as much justification for killing Mr Johnson's wife and children as Mr Bush has for bombing Iraq.

Mr Bush's long-term aim is to make the world a safer place by eliminating 'rogue states' and 'terrorism'. It's such a clever
long-term aim because how can you ever know when you've achieved it? How will Mr Bush know when he's wiped out all terrorists? When every single terrorist is dead? But then a terrorist is only a terrorist once he's committed an act of
terror. What about would-be terrorists? These are the ones you really want to eliminate, since most of the known terrorists, being suicide bombers, have already eliminated themselves.

Perhaps Mr Bush needs to wipe out everyone who could possibly be a future terrorist? Maybe he can't be sure he's achieved his objective until every Muslim fundamentalist is dead? But then some moderate Muslims might convert to fundamentalism. Maybe the only really safe thing to do would be for Mr Bush to eliminate all Muslims?

It's the same in my street. Mr Johnson and Mr Patel are just the tip of the iceberg. There are dozens of other people in the street who I don't like and who - quite frankly - look at me in odd ways. No one will be really safe until I've wiped them all out. My wife says I might be going too far but I tell her I'm simply using the same logic as the President of the United States. That shuts her up.

Like Mr Bush, I've run out of patience, and if that's a good enough reason for the President, it's good enough for me. I'm going to give the whole street two weeks - no, 10 days - to come out in the open and hand over all aliens and interplanetary hijackers, galactic outlaws and interstellar
terrorist masterminds, and if they don't hand them over nicely and say 'Thank you', I'm going to bomb the entire street to kingdom come.

It's just as sane as what George W. Bush is proposing - and, in contrast to what he's intending, my policy will destroy only one street.

By Terry Jones

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#155121 - Sat Mar 22 2003 04:45 PM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
wez Offline
Multiloquent

Registered: Sun Sep 30 2001
Posts: 2521
Loc: Norwich
England UK        
Has anyone changed their mind in this rolling poll?
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