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#155076 - Sat Jan 25 2003 05:31 PM War against Iraq........Yes or No?
wez Offline
Multiloquent

Registered: Sun Sep 30 2001
Posts: 2521
Loc: Norwich
England UK        
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#155077 - Sat Jan 25 2003 05:40 PM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
gtho4 Offline

Administrator

Registered: Sun Dec 26 1999
Posts: 40930
Loc: Sydney oz downunder           
why not put in another alternative:
Yes, with UN sanction
(this option is a raging issue downhere)

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#155078 - Sun Jan 26 2003 04:21 PM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
quaxo Offline
Explorer

Registered: Fri Oct 18 2002
Posts: 86
Loc: New York USA
NO-NO-NO a thousand times NO! War won't do anything to improve out economy which is what we really need. Stop Bush's Bullying! The French and Germans can see thru his macho swaggering, and we Americans are starting to take a harder look at what's really going on here. Look at the poll results so far.
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#155079 - Sun Jan 26 2003 04:49 PM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
Woofi Offline
Forum Adept

Registered: Sun Dec 22 2002
Posts: 123
Loc: Dallas, TX
Unless Bush can garner significant international support AND present a compelling case, I am afraid he will be making a very serious mistake. War will further damage our already infirmed economy and will further discolor the image of America abroad.

Personally, I prefer to believe that Bush knows something he is not telling us, but he needs to convince me that this war is not unfinished family business and an attempt to control Iraqi oil. Unfortunately, without hard evidence of a need for war, I tend to believe the latter.

I wonder if anyone will recycle the old "No Blood for Oil" signs printed during the last confrontation with Iraq?

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#155080 - Sun Jan 26 2003 06:06 PM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
jubjub Offline
Mainstay

Registered: Sat Jun 15 2002
Posts: 602
Loc: Southern Ontario, Canada
I am still of the opinion that Bush and his cronies have some pretty convincing evidence or proof up their sleeves which they will make public Monday to the U.N. or Tuesday when he addresses the nation. I believe the U.S. may allow a few more weeks for the U.N. inspectors to keep checking around. In this way the U.S.will be looked upon more favourably by other nations and will allow the U.S. a few extra weeks to get more troops and equipment in place, while still fitting within their original timeframe for starting this war. Do I agree with this war? I am leaning towards yes, only because I think the public have not been told all the facts, and that some of these facts are better off not released unless and until absolutely necessary, and even then only to those leaders of countries who need to know in order for them to see the seriousness of this situation and what not going to war with Iraq may lead to down the road. I am quite convinced this war will take place.
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#155081 - Sun Jan 26 2003 09:40 PM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
quaxo Offline
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Registered: Fri Oct 18 2002
Posts: 86
Loc: New York USA
jubjub, I can't agree with you on this. The last war with Iraq was a huge campaign for the war mongers to sell their wares. Their Weapons Of Destruction. The US had the perfect opportunity to show the world all the latest weapons technology. Using Oil as the excuse to invade. Now Bush just wants to finish the job his father started. Don't you think Saddam knows we can crush him like a bug? Rummy wants all of his press briefings translated into Arabic so they will know exactly what's going on. Bush, Rumsfeld and Channey are the Axis of Terror if you ask me. They are the Evil Doers here.
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#155082 - Sun Jan 26 2003 11:50 PM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
lefois Offline
Forum Champion

Registered: Fri Feb 01 2002
Posts: 6246
Loc: Kitimat BritishColumbia Canada
Well, jubjub, twinny of mine, I am still leaning toward "NO"! However, I agree that it seems inevitable.

And quaxo.......if Rummy thinks having his briefings translated in Arabic will further inform the "gentry" of Iraq, he's wrong! They'll never hear it!

And........to anyone at all...visiting this "telegraphed" invasion on Iraq at this time, and for the stated "reasons" may just bring home the prompt delivery of the WMD no one can seem to find.

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#155083 - Mon Jan 27 2003 05:13 PM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
tanzen Offline
Forum Champion

Registered: Tue Oct 02 2001
Posts: 8311
Loc: Melbourne
VIC Australia
No. When I say no, I mean "No" as in "No, I don't want war against Iraq". Whether or not I think it will happen is a whole 'nother issue.

I just don't see the sense in saying "This guy is hiding weapons and the like from us - let's go out and blow up all the people who live nearby.."
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#155084 - Tue Jan 28 2003 11:40 AM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
Woofi Offline
Forum Adept

Registered: Sun Dec 22 2002
Posts: 123
Loc: Dallas, TX
While I am a 'dove' most of the time and I do not necessarily trust Bush's motives, I did read a compelling letter in today's New York Times editorial section that reminded us that the failure to act by peaceloving nations in the 1930s allowed a minor political figure in Germany to amass considerable power and become a major world threat. The writer of that letter has a valid point, I think. I will be interested to hear the State of the Union address tonight.

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#155085 - Tue Jan 28 2003 05:05 PM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
fjohn Offline
Multiloquent

Registered: Mon Dec 06 1999
Posts: 2742
Loc: Wyoming USA Way Out West
From Wez's poll results, I see that 68 percent of us think that the U.S. should not invade Iraq. I voted "no" also, but for different reasons. Unless President Bush gives us very compelling evidence for invasion in his State of the Union address tonight, I will remain in the "no invasion" group.
I don't mean that Iraq's singular leader is not a unilateral butthead... I mean that Iraq is not worth the effort. We did it before and we can do it again and ol' Saddam and the rest of the world knows it. Who really cares if Iraq is belligerent to the whole world as long as Iraq's government believes with a singular certainty that it will be bombed into oblivion if it so much as thinks about aiming missiles at Israel.
If we pack up and go home tomorrow, Saddam will consider it a great victory for himself and his great ego. But, we still control his skies and still bomb his radar sites with regularity and will continue to bomb anything that looks like an offensive missile.
I think that Saddam's fellow Arabs need to consel their latest loose cannon in language that only Arabs understand.
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#155086 - Wed Jan 29 2003 12:10 AM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
Woofi Offline
Forum Adept

Registered: Sun Dec 22 2002
Posts: 123
Loc: Dallas, TX
Bush did pretty well with his speech tonight, but I am still not sold. I don't think anyone in the civilized world thinks Saddam should stay in power - but how should he be remove him? It does look like the war will start around mid-March from what the pundits.

Considering the time of year - the Ides of March - maybe one of his generals will pull a "Brutus" on this "Caesar"!

One can always hope!

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#155087 - Wed Jan 29 2003 08:57 AM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
Geek Offline
Mainstay

Registered: Mon Feb 14 2000
Posts: 622
Loc: Minnesota U.S.A.
If we (Americans) go in there and kill Saddam, he's bound to become a martyr to someone, and we can't kill a martyr.
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#155088 - Wed Jan 29 2003 09:34 AM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
pinfire Offline
Prolific

Registered: Sat Jun 08 2002
Posts: 1530
Loc: Western Australia
If you kill Saddam there will be another person to take his place. Then you will go and kill him too, and someone else will step in. And it goes on and on.
When will it stop?
War does not solve anything, expect many deaths.
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#155089 - Wed Jan 29 2003 09:49 AM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
ace_sodium Offline
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Registered: Mon Sep 16 2002
Posts: 1168
Loc: India
I am worried about something else - Over the Iraq issue, there is increasily becoming two divisions amongst the countries - while it may seem trivial at first, it could get worse day by day.
This bipolarisation of the world has always resulted in "grave" consequences...
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#155090 - Wed Jan 29 2003 02:52 PM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
Tielhard Offline
Mainstay

Registered: Thu Oct 24 2002
Posts: 778
Loc: Blackpool UK
I would like to say something in support of tanzen:

NO!
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#155091 - Wed Jan 29 2003 03:43 PM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
Russ5 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: Mon Dec 02 2002
Posts: 480
Loc: Oban
This is ' ' life...

from geek:

Quote:

If we (Americans) go in there and kill Saddam, he's bound to become a martyr to someone, and we can't kill a martyr.




from pinfire:

Quote:

If you kill Saddam there will be another person to take his place. Then you will go and kill him too, and someone else will step in. And it goes on and on.
When will it stop?
War does not solve anything, expect many deaths




to ace_sodium:
What?
Quote:

I am worried about something else - Over the Iraq issue, there is increasily becoming two divisions amongst the countries - while it may seem trivial at first, it could get worse day by day.
This bipolarisation of the world has always resulted in "grave" consequences...





bipolarisation is not the answer, oh god, don't go there, we can't cope with it now, 'grave' consequences,

Free yourselves...quick
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#155092 - Wed Jan 29 2003 06:32 PM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
Coolupway Offline
Prolific

Registered: Mon Aug 26 2002
Posts: 1131
I think we should all be greatly reassured by the President's "State of the Union" address, in which I think he said that if we get rid of "frivolous lawsuits" against doctors, we will have plenty of money to make cars that run on Kool-Aid, cure all known disease and make bad dictators stand in the corner and write "I will not oppress my people" 100 times on the blackboard. Probably if these "frivolous lawsuits" go away, Saddam Hussein will too, and then a family of four making $40,000 a year will not even have to file a tax return, much less pay taxes. And if guys like Bill Gates aren't taxed twice on dividends the money will somehow trickle down to some guy in Tulsa, Oklahoma, and Americans should have cheap health care just like the Canadians do, only you won't have to be a friend of that guy, the president of Quebec, what's his name, Jean Poutine, to get an appointment, and look ma, no war, we really can't link Saddam to bin Laden, but who can say THAT, so let me create another scapegaot over here, those terrible trial lawyers who go around filing "frivolous lawsuits", lawsuits that are so "frivolous" they force malpractice insurers into bankruptcy, and also Saddam is "bad", so let's rattle the sabre at him and grab headlines while knowing we're just gonna let him get tied up in knots by that silly old UN, better those bleeding-hearts are over in Bagdad than grabbing up all the good parking spaces on First Avenue in Manhattan.

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#155093 - Wed Jan 29 2003 06:35 PM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
ladymacb29 Offline
Moderator

Registered: Wed Mar 15 2000
Posts: 15430
Loc: The Delta Quadrant
Is a bipolar world really so bad? Poltical scientists spend their whole lives on that question and they still can't come to an agreement. (Personally, if you want to know what theory I subscribe to it's power transition theory - sort of a realist view of the world, but better!)

As to the question, I don't know. I really don't want to say YES! or NO! when I don't have all the facts that those in power making the decisions do. With the informaiton I do have, I lean towards no. But I haven't seen the intelligence reports that Bush has, etc. so I really can't say.
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#155094 - Wed Jan 29 2003 08:24 PM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
DakotaNorth Offline
Forum Champion

Registered: Tue Jul 10 2001
Posts: 6168
Loc: Philadelphia Pennsylvania USA
I say that we shouldn't go to war with Iraq. Yes, Saddam is something that I cannot say here, but is he bothering us? No he isn't. In fact, after the events of 9/11, he expressed his sorrow (I know that if I'm wrong on this, someone will say, although I remember reading this in the Daily News).

From what I can discern, he hasn't bothered us since we had the Gulf War (under Bush Sr.). I understand that the UN has found an empty warhead (or something like that). But it's empty. The UN has not found anything, whether nuclear or biological, in Iraq. So it seems to me that Saddam is telling the truth.

I think that Bush is grasping for straws and will do anything to have a war. I guess he's never heard of the saying "let sleeping dogs lie (lay?)."

The person Bush should be on the hunt for is bin Laden, but low and behold, bin Laden is taking a backseat to Saddam. I have to ask myself why?
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#155095 - Wed Jan 29 2003 09:02 PM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
ingilby Offline
Participant

Registered: Mon Apr 15 2002
Posts: 46
Loc: Manchester England UK 
Just a few points:

I think Bush is picking on Iraq because it would be relatively easy to beat. North Korea actually has nuclear weapons and is a much worse regime than Iraq - but it would be too dangerous to invade there, partly because it has such weapons.

Bush's popularity rests on the 9/11 attack. If he keeps the main agenda the "War on Terrorism" people will not notice he really has nothing to offer anyone except to the powerful and wealthy - his pals.

The media says very little about America's contribution to terrorism. The CIA has sponsored terrorism, especially in South America, for decades. Hundreds of thousands of mainly innocent civilians have died as a result, ignoring the countless instances of torture, rape and other atrocities. Most of the tyrants in South America were trained in torture techniques in the USA. Is this the "civilised" society Bush was talking about last night ? (Interestingly Bush used the word "Hitlerism" instead of "Fascism" when naming ideologies the "free world" criticizes. Now he wouldn't want to offend his South American friends, would he ?)

There is a long history of America sponsoring terrorism in other countries, only for those same groups to bite the hand that fed them. This happened in Vietnam, Afgahnistan and Iraq (I am stretching the concept of "terrorism" in this last case, but I am not the only one !)

9 Million people will die from dirty water this year, as happens every year - the world's biggest killer. The USA vetoed a British plan to do something about that at the last Earth Summit. Not very civilised, is it ?

Europe and America are both guilty of subsidising their farmers and dumping cheap products in impoverished countries. These measures lock the poorest countries in poverty with no escape. I think our farmers and industrialists are big enough to stand on their own two feet and trade fairly. Interestingly France and Germany are preventing British plans for agricultural policy reform. And how they bleat about Iraq ! Especially France - they are only worried about their substantial assets in Iraq so are making a fuss to increase their bargaining power when it comes to dividing the spoils.

Speaking of which, one theory has it that if America invades and gets its hands on all that oil it will kickstart the US out of recession. How desperate an economic policy is that ? You would have to go back to the Third Reich to find a similar instance.

In America 28,000 die every year due to firearms, 60,000 due to faulty building materials, 300,000 due to obesity and more deaths have occurred due to car accidents than in every war you have ever fought put together - hydrogen powered or not ! Are you really sure Iraq is your biggest problem ?





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#155096 - Wed Jan 29 2003 11:47 PM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
quaxo Offline
Explorer

Registered: Fri Oct 18 2002
Posts: 86
Loc: New York USA
Ingilby-
Right on! 100% nail on the head! You really make some important points. This whole thing makes me wonder just how ignorant some of us Americans are. That there are people who can't see that Bush is trying to pull the wool over our eyes. I was totally against the war in Vietnam (giving my age away again) as well as the first Bush invasion of Iraq. I am a dove and will always be one. Violence is not the answer. The US has subverted it's share of governments in order to pursue certain subversive agendas. I'm not going to allow Bush to use the American public as his excuse to go to war and line the pockets of his already way to rich buddies. The newly organized department of Home Security is making things sound like the Nazis. Forcing people to "register" asking others to turn in people they suspect. Sound familiar? Does that scare you all out there? The US was started by folks who were seeking freedom from oppression. Let Iraq be. If you don't give someone an audience they can't perform. I saw someone on the news today from the UN asking for the proof that there are weapons of mass destruction. I won't believe those weapons exist until they can prove it to me too. Not In Our Name!!!
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#155097 - Thu Jan 30 2003 03:14 AM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
rudogg Offline
Explorer

Registered: Sat Dec 14 2002
Posts: 60
Loc: dayton ohio
Do you suppose all those Iraqi Kurds died from boredom? I guess we should leave Iraq be. Let Saddam practice delivering his WMD on his own people until he gets it right.

And I am a bit curious as to where the "Not In Our Name" crowd was when William Jefferson Clinton was bombing Bosnia for 90 days straight? I am speaking of the Sean Penns, Susan Sarandons, Martin Sheens and of course, Babs.
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#155098 - Thu Jan 30 2003 07:44 AM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
DieHard Offline
Prolific

Registered: Wed Oct 10 2001
Posts: 1127
Loc: Louisiana USA
rudogg, I never understood our involvement in that civil war either. Milosevic wasn't a threat to us and never did anything to us; we just seemed to let the UN make the decision for us whether or not to get involved. Maybe a little isolationism is in order perhaps??
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#155099 - Thu Jan 30 2003 09:07 AM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
rudogg Offline
Explorer

Registered: Sat Dec 14 2002
Posts: 60
Loc: dayton ohio
It seems like the U.S. tried the isolationist thing. In 1916 and again in 1939. Sticking our heads in the sand isn't the answer in my opinion.

But if you are going to negotiate, you must do so from a position of strength. I hope Saddam blinks first, but if not we must be prepared to back up the rhetoric with action.

With the support of our friends, of course.
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#155100 - Thu Jan 30 2003 11:50 AM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
ladymacb29 Offline
Moderator

Registered: Wed Mar 15 2000
Posts: 15430
Loc: The Delta Quadrant
Milosevic wasn't doing anything to us - but, then again, Hitler wasn't really either. I'm not a very interventionist person, but when genocide is going on - I don't want to call myself a citizen of a country which DOESN'T act.
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