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#155076 - Sat Jan 25 2003 05:31 PM War against Iraq........Yes or No?
wez Offline
Multiloquent

Registered: Sun Sep 30 2001
Posts: 2521
Loc: Norwich
England UK        
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#155077 - Sat Jan 25 2003 05:40 PM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
gtho4 Offline
Administrator

Registered: Sun Dec 26 1999
Posts: 45475
Loc: Sydney oz downunder           
why not put in another alternative:
Yes, with UN sanction
(this option is a raging issue downhere)

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#155078 - Sun Jan 26 2003 04:21 PM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
quaxo Offline
Explorer

Registered: Fri Oct 18 2002
Posts: 86
Loc: New York USA
NO-NO-NO a thousand times NO! War won't do anything to improve out economy which is what we really need. Stop Bush's Bullying! The French and Germans can see thru his macho swaggering, and we Americans are starting to take a harder look at what's really going on here. Look at the poll results so far.
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#155079 - Sun Jan 26 2003 04:49 PM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
Woofi Offline
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Registered: Sun Dec 22 2002
Posts: 123
Loc: Dallas, TX
Unless Bush can garner significant international support AND present a compelling case, I am afraid he will be making a very serious mistake. War will further damage our already infirmed economy and will further discolor the image of America abroad.

Personally, I prefer to believe that Bush knows something he is not telling us, but he needs to convince me that this war is not unfinished family business and an attempt to control Iraqi oil. Unfortunately, without hard evidence of a need for war, I tend to believe the latter.

I wonder if anyone will recycle the old "No Blood for Oil" signs printed during the last confrontation with Iraq?

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#155080 - Sun Jan 26 2003 06:06 PM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
jubjub Offline
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Registered: Sat Jun 15 2002
Posts: 602
Loc: Southern Ontario, Canada
I am still of the opinion that Bush and his cronies have some pretty convincing evidence or proof up their sleeves which they will make public Monday to the U.N. or Tuesday when he addresses the nation. I believe the U.S. may allow a few more weeks for the U.N. inspectors to keep checking around. In this way the U.S.will be looked upon more favourably by other nations and will allow the U.S. a few extra weeks to get more troops and equipment in place, while still fitting within their original timeframe for starting this war. Do I agree with this war? I am leaning towards yes, only because I think the public have not been told all the facts, and that some of these facts are better off not released unless and until absolutely necessary, and even then only to those leaders of countries who need to know in order for them to see the seriousness of this situation and what not going to war with Iraq may lead to down the road. I am quite convinced this war will take place.
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#155081 - Sun Jan 26 2003 09:40 PM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
quaxo Offline
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Registered: Fri Oct 18 2002
Posts: 86
Loc: New York USA
jubjub, I can't agree with you on this. The last war with Iraq was a huge campaign for the war mongers to sell their wares. Their Weapons Of Destruction. The US had the perfect opportunity to show the world all the latest weapons technology. Using Oil as the excuse to invade. Now Bush just wants to finish the job his father started. Don't you think Saddam knows we can crush him like a bug? Rummy wants all of his press briefings translated into Arabic so they will know exactly what's going on. Bush, Rumsfeld and Channey are the Axis of Terror if you ask me. They are the Evil Doers here.
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#155082 - Sun Jan 26 2003 11:50 PM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
lefois Offline
Forum Champion

Registered: Fri Feb 01 2002
Posts: 6246
Loc: Kitimat BritishColumbia Canada
Well, jubjub, twinny of mine, I am still leaning toward "NO"! However, I agree that it seems inevitable.

And quaxo.......if Rummy thinks having his briefings translated in Arabic will further inform the "gentry" of Iraq, he's wrong! They'll never hear it!

And........to anyone at all...visiting this "telegraphed" invasion on Iraq at this time, and for the stated "reasons" may just bring home the prompt delivery of the WMD no one can seem to find.

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#155083 - Mon Jan 27 2003 05:13 PM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
tanzen Offline
Forum Champion

Registered: Tue Oct 02 2001
Posts: 8311
Loc: Melbourne
VIC Australia
No. When I say no, I mean "No" as in "No, I don't want war against Iraq". Whether or not I think it will happen is a whole 'nother issue.

I just don't see the sense in saying "This guy is hiding weapons and the like from us - let's go out and blow up all the people who live nearby.."
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#155084 - Tue Jan 28 2003 11:40 AM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
Woofi Offline
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Registered: Sun Dec 22 2002
Posts: 123
Loc: Dallas, TX
While I am a 'dove' most of the time and I do not necessarily trust Bush's motives, I did read a compelling letter in today's New York Times editorial section that reminded us that the failure to act by peaceloving nations in the 1930s allowed a minor political figure in Germany to amass considerable power and become a major world threat. The writer of that letter has a valid point, I think. I will be interested to hear the State of the Union address tonight.

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#155085 - Tue Jan 28 2003 05:05 PM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
fjohn Offline
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Registered: Mon Dec 06 1999
Posts: 2742
Loc: Wyoming USA Way Out West
From Wez's poll results, I see that 68 percent of us think that the U.S. should not invade Iraq. I voted "no" also, but for different reasons. Unless President Bush gives us very compelling evidence for invasion in his State of the Union address tonight, I will remain in the "no invasion" group.
I don't mean that Iraq's singular leader is not a unilateral butthead... I mean that Iraq is not worth the effort. We did it before and we can do it again and ol' Saddam and the rest of the world knows it. Who really cares if Iraq is belligerent to the whole world as long as Iraq's government believes with a singular certainty that it will be bombed into oblivion if it so much as thinks about aiming missiles at Israel.
If we pack up and go home tomorrow, Saddam will consider it a great victory for himself and his great ego. But, we still control his skies and still bomb his radar sites with regularity and will continue to bomb anything that looks like an offensive missile.
I think that Saddam's fellow Arabs need to consel their latest loose cannon in language that only Arabs understand.
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#155086 - Wed Jan 29 2003 12:10 AM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
Woofi Offline
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Registered: Sun Dec 22 2002
Posts: 123
Loc: Dallas, TX
Bush did pretty well with his speech tonight, but I am still not sold. I don't think anyone in the civilized world thinks Saddam should stay in power - but how should he be remove him? It does look like the war will start around mid-March from what the pundits.

Considering the time of year - the Ides of March - maybe one of his generals will pull a "Brutus" on this "Caesar"!

One can always hope!

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#155087 - Wed Jan 29 2003 08:57 AM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
Geek Offline
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Registered: Mon Feb 14 2000
Posts: 622
Loc: Minnesota U.S.A.
If we (Americans) go in there and kill Saddam, he's bound to become a martyr to someone, and we can't kill a martyr.
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#155088 - Wed Jan 29 2003 09:34 AM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
pinfire Offline
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Registered: Sat Jun 08 2002
Posts: 1530
Loc: Western Australia
If you kill Saddam there will be another person to take his place. Then you will go and kill him too, and someone else will step in. And it goes on and on.
When will it stop?
War does not solve anything, expect many deaths.
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#155089 - Wed Jan 29 2003 09:49 AM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
ace_sodium Offline
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Registered: Mon Sep 16 2002
Posts: 1168
Loc: India
I am worried about something else - Over the Iraq issue, there is increasily becoming two divisions amongst the countries - while it may seem trivial at first, it could get worse day by day.
This bipolarisation of the world has always resulted in "grave" consequences...
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#155090 - Wed Jan 29 2003 02:52 PM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
Tielhard Offline
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Registered: Thu Oct 24 2002
Posts: 778
Loc: Blackpool UK
I would like to say something in support of tanzen:

NO!
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#155091 - Wed Jan 29 2003 03:43 PM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
Russ5 Offline
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Registered: Mon Dec 02 2002
Posts: 480
Loc: Oban
This is ' ' life...

from geek:

Quote:

If we (Americans) go in there and kill Saddam, he's bound to become a martyr to someone, and we can't kill a martyr.




from pinfire:

Quote:

If you kill Saddam there will be another person to take his place. Then you will go and kill him too, and someone else will step in. And it goes on and on.
When will it stop?
War does not solve anything, expect many deaths




to ace_sodium:
What?
Quote:

I am worried about something else - Over the Iraq issue, there is increasily becoming two divisions amongst the countries - while it may seem trivial at first, it could get worse day by day.
This bipolarisation of the world has always resulted in "grave" consequences...





bipolarisation is not the answer, oh god, don't go there, we can't cope with it now, 'grave' consequences,

Free yourselves...quick
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#155092 - Wed Jan 29 2003 06:32 PM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
Coolupway Offline
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Registered: Mon Aug 26 2002
Posts: 1131
I think we should all be greatly reassured by the President's "State of the Union" address, in which I think he said that if we get rid of "frivolous lawsuits" against doctors, we will have plenty of money to make cars that run on Kool-Aid, cure all known disease and make bad dictators stand in the corner and write "I will not oppress my people" 100 times on the blackboard. Probably if these "frivolous lawsuits" go away, Saddam Hussein will too, and then a family of four making $40,000 a year will not even have to file a tax return, much less pay taxes. And if guys like Bill Gates aren't taxed twice on dividends the money will somehow trickle down to some guy in Tulsa, Oklahoma, and Americans should have cheap health care just like the Canadians do, only you won't have to be a friend of that guy, the president of Quebec, what's his name, Jean Poutine, to get an appointment, and look ma, no war, we really can't link Saddam to bin Laden, but who can say THAT, so let me create another scapegaot over here, those terrible trial lawyers who go around filing "frivolous lawsuits", lawsuits that are so "frivolous" they force malpractice insurers into bankruptcy, and also Saddam is "bad", so let's rattle the sabre at him and grab headlines while knowing we're just gonna let him get tied up in knots by that silly old UN, better those bleeding-hearts are over in Bagdad than grabbing up all the good parking spaces on First Avenue in Manhattan.

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#155093 - Wed Jan 29 2003 06:35 PM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
ladymacb29 Offline
Moderator

Registered: Wed Mar 15 2000
Posts: 15726
Loc: The Delta Quadrant
Is a bipolar world really so bad? Poltical scientists spend their whole lives on that question and they still can't come to an agreement. (Personally, if you want to know what theory I subscribe to it's power transition theory - sort of a realist view of the world, but better!)

As to the question, I don't know. I really don't want to say YES! or NO! when I don't have all the facts that those in power making the decisions do. With the informaiton I do have, I lean towards no. But I haven't seen the intelligence reports that Bush has, etc. so I really can't say.
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#155094 - Wed Jan 29 2003 08:24 PM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
DakotaNorth Offline
Forum Champion

Registered: Tue Jul 10 2001
Posts: 6168
Loc: Philadelphia Pennsylvania USA
I say that we shouldn't go to war with Iraq. Yes, Saddam is something that I cannot say here, but is he bothering us? No he isn't. In fact, after the events of 9/11, he expressed his sorrow (I know that if I'm wrong on this, someone will say, although I remember reading this in the Daily News).

From what I can discern, he hasn't bothered us since we had the Gulf War (under Bush Sr.). I understand that the UN has found an empty warhead (or something like that). But it's empty. The UN has not found anything, whether nuclear or biological, in Iraq. So it seems to me that Saddam is telling the truth.

I think that Bush is grasping for straws and will do anything to have a war. I guess he's never heard of the saying "let sleeping dogs lie (lay?)."

The person Bush should be on the hunt for is bin Laden, but low and behold, bin Laden is taking a backseat to Saddam. I have to ask myself why?
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#155095 - Wed Jan 29 2003 09:02 PM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
ingilby Offline
Participant

Registered: Mon Apr 15 2002
Posts: 46
Loc: Manchester England UK 
Just a few points:

I think Bush is picking on Iraq because it would be relatively easy to beat. North Korea actually has nuclear weapons and is a much worse regime than Iraq - but it would be too dangerous to invade there, partly because it has such weapons.

Bush's popularity rests on the 9/11 attack. If he keeps the main agenda the "War on Terrorism" people will not notice he really has nothing to offer anyone except to the powerful and wealthy - his pals.

The media says very little about America's contribution to terrorism. The CIA has sponsored terrorism, especially in South America, for decades. Hundreds of thousands of mainly innocent civilians have died as a result, ignoring the countless instances of torture, rape and other atrocities. Most of the tyrants in South America were trained in torture techniques in the USA. Is this the "civilised" society Bush was talking about last night ? (Interestingly Bush used the word "Hitlerism" instead of "Fascism" when naming ideologies the "free world" criticizes. Now he wouldn't want to offend his South American friends, would he ?)

There is a long history of America sponsoring terrorism in other countries, only for those same groups to bite the hand that fed them. This happened in Vietnam, Afgahnistan and Iraq (I am stretching the concept of "terrorism" in this last case, but I am not the only one !)

9 Million people will die from dirty water this year, as happens every year - the world's biggest killer. The USA vetoed a British plan to do something about that at the last Earth Summit. Not very civilised, is it ?

Europe and America are both guilty of subsidising their farmers and dumping cheap products in impoverished countries. These measures lock the poorest countries in poverty with no escape. I think our farmers and industrialists are big enough to stand on their own two feet and trade fairly. Interestingly France and Germany are preventing British plans for agricultural policy reform. And how they bleat about Iraq ! Especially France - they are only worried about their substantial assets in Iraq so are making a fuss to increase their bargaining power when it comes to dividing the spoils.

Speaking of which, one theory has it that if America invades and gets its hands on all that oil it will kickstart the US out of recession. How desperate an economic policy is that ? You would have to go back to the Third Reich to find a similar instance.

In America 28,000 die every year due to firearms, 60,000 due to faulty building materials, 300,000 due to obesity and more deaths have occurred due to car accidents than in every war you have ever fought put together - hydrogen powered or not ! Are you really sure Iraq is your biggest problem ?





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#155096 - Wed Jan 29 2003 11:47 PM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
quaxo Offline
Explorer

Registered: Fri Oct 18 2002
Posts: 86
Loc: New York USA
Ingilby-
Right on! 100% nail on the head! You really make some important points. This whole thing makes me wonder just how ignorant some of us Americans are. That there are people who can't see that Bush is trying to pull the wool over our eyes. I was totally against the war in Vietnam (giving my age away again) as well as the first Bush invasion of Iraq. I am a dove and will always be one. Violence is not the answer. The US has subverted it's share of governments in order to pursue certain subversive agendas. I'm not going to allow Bush to use the American public as his excuse to go to war and line the pockets of his already way to rich buddies. The newly organized department of Home Security is making things sound like the Nazis. Forcing people to "register" asking others to turn in people they suspect. Sound familiar? Does that scare you all out there? The US was started by folks who were seeking freedom from oppression. Let Iraq be. If you don't give someone an audience they can't perform. I saw someone on the news today from the UN asking for the proof that there are weapons of mass destruction. I won't believe those weapons exist until they can prove it to me too. Not In Our Name!!!
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#155097 - Thu Jan 30 2003 03:14 AM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
rudogg Offline
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Registered: Sat Dec 14 2002
Posts: 60
Loc: dayton ohio
Do you suppose all those Iraqi Kurds died from boredom? I guess we should leave Iraq be. Let Saddam practice delivering his WMD on his own people until he gets it right.

And I am a bit curious as to where the "Not In Our Name" crowd was when William Jefferson Clinton was bombing Bosnia for 90 days straight? I am speaking of the Sean Penns, Susan Sarandons, Martin Sheens and of course, Babs.
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#155098 - Thu Jan 30 2003 07:44 AM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
DieHard Offline
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Registered: Wed Oct 10 2001
Posts: 1127
Loc: Louisiana USA
rudogg, I never understood our involvement in that civil war either. Milosevic wasn't a threat to us and never did anything to us; we just seemed to let the UN make the decision for us whether or not to get involved. Maybe a little isolationism is in order perhaps??
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#155099 - Thu Jan 30 2003 09:07 AM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
rudogg Offline
Explorer

Registered: Sat Dec 14 2002
Posts: 60
Loc: dayton ohio
It seems like the U.S. tried the isolationist thing. In 1916 and again in 1939. Sticking our heads in the sand isn't the answer in my opinion.

But if you are going to negotiate, you must do so from a position of strength. I hope Saddam blinks first, but if not we must be prepared to back up the rhetoric with action.

With the support of our friends, of course.
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#155100 - Thu Jan 30 2003 11:50 AM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
ladymacb29 Offline
Moderator

Registered: Wed Mar 15 2000
Posts: 15726
Loc: The Delta Quadrant
Milosevic wasn't doing anything to us - but, then again, Hitler wasn't really either. I'm not a very interventionist person, but when genocide is going on - I don't want to call myself a citizen of a country which DOESN'T act.
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#155101 - Thu Jan 30 2003 01:05 PM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
ace_sodium Offline
Prolific

Registered: Mon Sep 16 2002
Posts: 1168
Loc: India
Genocide?

The people of IRAQ are not heard, when they say there are happy under Saddam Hussain, we assume that they are lying!
Genocide of Kurdish people - well as per the current deinition of "terrorism", aren't they fighting against a "legitimate" Iraqi government? and spreading terror amongst the Iraqi people?
It is only appropriate that the U.N inspectors are given ample time, and if and only if THEY FIND any weapons of mass destruction (not empty warheads dating to Jurassic age), should any action be taken.
-----------------------------------------------------------

I am slightly deviating from the topic

I have a lingering doubt : what is a rogue state? how do you differentiate? By U.S policies and statements, it seems a rogue state is one where
1) there is a dictatorship (or non-democratic form of government)
2) has weapons of mass destruction
3) has a weakening economy (due to which they are forced to sell these weapons to terrorists)
4) has any active record of aiding terrorism.

Now, by these standards, isn't Pakistan (an U.S ally) a rogue state?
before 9/11, they had a active record of supporting Taliban
Even now, they are siding terrorists in kashmir and has allegedly sold nuclear secrets and equipment to North Korea!
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#155102 - Thu Jan 30 2003 01:34 PM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
rudogg Offline
Explorer

Registered: Sat Dec 14 2002
Posts: 60
Loc: dayton ohio
Good points Ace... Perhaps we should look at the mission of the "inspectors" as defined by the U.N. resolution. The inspectors main mission is not to discover any WMD, but to verify that the Iraqi government has destroyed the weapons that they had in their possession. To date, the verification of this by the Iraqi government is murky at best, bordering on outright deception. I believe there will be clear cut evidence of this presented to the U.N. this coming week.

As for your description of the Pakistani situation, I agree with you. If the government is doing the things you say, I'm sure that will be dealt with in due time.
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#155103 - Thu Jan 30 2003 02:29 PM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
DieHard Offline
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Registered: Wed Oct 10 2001
Posts: 1127
Loc: Louisiana USA
No doubt the Serbs committed war atrocities; they are well documented. But the Croats and Muslims were not without their own excesses. That dispute was brewing for nearly a century. War is ugly. The UN spent as much time sabotaging the Balkan peace process as it did trying to stop any genocide. I have no love for Milosevic but I also don't see one side as any better than the other. I never understood our involvement other than that Clinton abdicated his responsibility as commander in chief to the UN.

http://www.balkanpeace.org/wcs/wct/wcts/wcts29.shtml

We also know that Hussein has engaged in his own genocide. There are African regimes that are committing genocide as we speak yet we do nothing. I don't see much difference between Milosevic and Hussein other than we know Saddam is willing to arm terrorists with biological/chemical/nuclear weapons for use on the North American continent and with the express purpose of killing hundreds of thousands of American civilians. I have made it clear that I have reservations about whether an invasion of Iraq is the right answer but let's not pretend that we were so righteous in the Balkans but are nothing but an evil aggressor now. Maybe someone can convince me that we were more justified to war against Milosevic than we are to topple Hussein. Right now, the opposite appears to be true--not that I want to go to war.
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#155104 - Fri Jan 31 2003 04:15 PM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
snm Offline
Mainstay

Registered: Thu Jan 30 2003
Posts: 901
Loc: Israel
Quote:

Maybe a little isolationism is in order perhaps??



Does anyone in their right mind truly believe that the US can survive if the rest of the world crumbles around it?
The US must intervene in all foreign affairs that could have a lasting effect on the world, because like it or not, the US is the leader of the world. Not just the free world. The whole world.
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#155105 - Fri Jan 31 2003 04:30 PM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
DieHard Offline
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Registered: Wed Oct 10 2001
Posts: 1127
Loc: Louisiana USA
I was being facetious. Take a look around the forums and you will see much criticism of the U.S. for its intervention throughout the world....yet no one seems to mind taking the American foreign aid and then crying that they shouldn't be expected to pay it back.
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#155106 - Fri Jan 31 2003 05:16 PM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
Coolupway Offline
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Registered: Mon Aug 26 2002
Posts: 1131
Yes,, especially a certain Western European nation... its name slips my mind... that can't bash and sneer at the U.S. enough, yet somehow is quite happy (albeit temporarily) for our assistance when the spike-heads roll through every fifty years or so. What IS the name of that place?

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#155107 - Fri Jan 31 2003 06:25 PM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
snm Offline
Mainstay

Registered: Thu Jan 30 2003
Posts: 901
Loc: Israel
Could you possibly mean the one I mentioned in a different thread just yesterday? You know, the one that has a habit of surrendering before the first shot is fired?
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#155108 - Fri Jan 31 2003 06:29 PM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
Coolupway Offline
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Registered: Mon Aug 26 2002
Posts: 1131
Yes, the one whose ambassador to London recently referred to a certain non-Islamic Middle Eastern state as a "sh-tty little country."

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#155109 - Fri Jan 31 2003 07:16 PM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
snm Offline
Mainstay

Registered: Thu Jan 30 2003
Posts: 901
Loc: Israel
It's a good thing this nobel Western European nation only developed this great sense of hatred towards this sh*tty little country after they gave it The Bomb
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#155110 - Fri Jan 31 2003 07:49 PM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
DieHard Offline
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Registered: Wed Oct 10 2001
Posts: 1127
Loc: Louisiana USA
Be careful or we are going to have a thread on anti-"Western European nation that is known for its pastries and wrought-iron erection" sentiments.
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#155111 - Fri Jan 31 2003 09:54 PM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
StraightXXXEdge Offline
Participant

Registered: Tue Jan 14 2003
Posts: 24
Is it fr-- ohhhhhh I get the game uh... yes... this country is very... surrenderful... garshdarn it I got nothing! Though they do have a nice little territory in Canada!
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#155112 - Fri Jan 31 2003 11:49 PM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
Geek Offline
Mainstay

Registered: Mon Feb 14 2000
Posts: 622
Loc: Minnesota U.S.A.
While Iraq is certianly a concern, I'd like to see Bush go after some other pressing issues such as: finding who is responsible for the anthrax letters, finding Osama Bin Laden, and North Korea (we're searching for a smoking gun in Iraq while N. Korea seems to be "loading a gun" in plain sight.
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#155113 - Tue Feb 04 2003 03:42 AM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
Maynooth Offline
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Registered: Mon Jan 20 2003
Posts: 114
Loc: Western Australia
I'm just wondering what the criteria are for being allowed to have WMDs?

USA, France, UK, Russia (exUSSR), India, Pakistan, China, Korea.
I guess they must have proved they know how to use them responsibly.

cheers
Maynooth
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#155114 - Tue Feb 04 2003 07:21 AM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
snm Offline
Mainstay

Registered: Thu Jan 30 2003
Posts: 901
Loc: Israel
Most of these countries have had these weapons for a while, and nothing can be done about it now. The point now is not to add to that list of countries.
That aside, let me add this: WMDs are less dangerous in the hands of democracies than they are in the hands of dictators (that is why Pakistan is such a problem, and also why the whole world should be thankful for the fact that India is a nuclear power).
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#155115 - Tue Feb 04 2003 08:30 AM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
Maynooth Offline
Forum Adept

Registered: Mon Jan 20 2003
Posts: 114
Loc: Western Australia
If I remember correctly no dictatorship has detonated a nuclear device in anger.
A couple were detonated by the greatest democracy in the world.
It just depends if you consider chemical and biological weapons as WMD. I which case most university chem students have capabilities.

cheers
Maynooth
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The race is long and in the end it is only with ones self.

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#155116 - Tue Feb 04 2003 09:24 AM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
snm Offline
Mainstay

Registered: Thu Jan 30 2003
Posts: 901
Loc: Israel
WWII was almost 60 years ago. In this day and age the chances of a nuclear weapon being set off by a dictator, who makes decisions on his own, are much greater than the chances of a nuclear weapon being set off by a democracy.
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#155117 - Tue Feb 04 2003 06:39 PM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
Callybub Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: Sat Sep 08 2001
Posts: 365
Loc: Waterford Ireland      
I will not go into the issue in any detail at the moment other than to say that Maynooth, you, for my part at least, have read my mind.
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#155118 - Tue Feb 04 2003 06:48 PM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
wez Offline
Multiloquent

Registered: Sun Sep 30 2001
Posts: 2521
Loc: Norwich
England UK        
Quote:

If I remember correctly no dictatorship has detonated a nuclear device in anger.





As of the 5th of February 2003.
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#155119 - Tue Feb 04 2003 07:41 PM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
ace_sodium Offline
Prolific

Registered: Mon Sep 16 2002
Posts: 1168
Loc: India
Pakistan - that's a riot (they just borrowed two missiles from China after the Pokhran tests were conducted by India)

Anyways back to the topic - the sign of irresponsibility with respect to Nuclear, Chemical or Biological weapons is when you don't agree to the No-first use.
If I am not wrong, U.S of A hasn't agreed on this count with respect to Nuclear weapons = meaning she will be more inclined to 'hurl' a nuke at a country to resolve disputes.
( Pakistan amongst the nuke-countries also hasn't agreed to a no-first use clause).

isn't that (having and more than willing to use it) more dangerous than merely having one?
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#155120 - Thu Feb 06 2003 07:41 AM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
Bertho Offline
Mainstay

Registered: Fri Oct 04 2002
Posts: 974
Loc: Queensland Australia
Terry Jones (Python) observations that appeared in a newspaper. Someone emailed it to me - just a tad of irony... funny but sad - worth sharing.

I'm really excited by George Bush's latest reason for bombing Iraq: he's running out of patience. And so am I! For some time now I've been really pissed off with Mr Johnson, who lives a couple of doors down the street.

Well, him and Mr Patel, who runs the health food shop. They both give me queer looks, and I'm sure Mr Johnson is planning something nasty for me, but so far I haven't been able to discover what. I've been round to his place a few times to see what he's up to, but he's got everything well hidden. That's how devious he is.

As for Mr Patel, don't ask me how I know, I just know - from very good sources - that he is, in reality, a Mass Murderer. I have leafleted the street telling them that if we don't act first, he'll pick us off one by one.

Some of my neighbours say, if I've got proof, why don't I go to the police? But that's simply ridiculous. The police will say that they need evidence of a crime with which to charge my neighbours. They'll come up with endless red tape and quibbling about the rights and wrongs of a pre-emptive strike and all the while Mr Johnson will be finalising his plans to do terrible things to me, while Mr Patel will be secretly murdering people. Since I'm the only one in the street with a decent range of automatic firearms, I reckon it's up to me to keep the peace. But until recently that's been a little difficult. Now, however, George W. Bush has made it clear that all I need to do is run out of patience, and then I can wade in and do whatever I want!

And let's face it, Mr Bush's carefully thought-out policy towards Iraq is the only way to bring about international peace and security. The one certain way to stop Muslim fundamentalist suicide bombers targeting the US or the UK is to bomb a few Muslim countries that have never threatened us. That's why I want to blow up Mr Johnson's garage and kill his wife and children. Strike first! That'll teach him a lesson. Then he'll leave us in peace and stop peering at me in that totally unacceptable way.

Mr Bush makes it clear that all he needs to know before bombing Iraq is that Saddam is a really nasty man and that he has weapons of mass destruction - even if no one can find them. I'm certain I've just as much justification for killing Mr Johnson's wife and children as Mr Bush has for bombing Iraq.

Mr Bush's long-term aim is to make the world a safer place by eliminating 'rogue states' and 'terrorism'. It's such a clever
long-term aim because how can you ever know when you've achieved it? How will Mr Bush know when he's wiped out all terrorists? When every single terrorist is dead? But then a terrorist is only a terrorist once he's committed an act of
terror. What about would-be terrorists? These are the ones you really want to eliminate, since most of the known terrorists, being suicide bombers, have already eliminated themselves.

Perhaps Mr Bush needs to wipe out everyone who could possibly be a future terrorist? Maybe he can't be sure he's achieved his objective until every Muslim fundamentalist is dead? But then some moderate Muslims might convert to fundamentalism. Maybe the only really safe thing to do would be for Mr Bush to eliminate all Muslims?

It's the same in my street. Mr Johnson and Mr Patel are just the tip of the iceberg. There are dozens of other people in the street who I don't like and who - quite frankly - look at me in odd ways. No one will be really safe until I've wiped them all out. My wife says I might be going too far but I tell her I'm simply using the same logic as the President of the United States. That shuts her up.

Like Mr Bush, I've run out of patience, and if that's a good enough reason for the President, it's good enough for me. I'm going to give the whole street two weeks - no, 10 days - to come out in the open and hand over all aliens and interplanetary hijackers, galactic outlaws and interstellar
terrorist masterminds, and if they don't hand them over nicely and say 'Thank you', I'm going to bomb the entire street to kingdom come.

It's just as sane as what George W. Bush is proposing - and, in contrast to what he's intending, my policy will destroy only one street.

By Terry Jones

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#155121 - Sat Mar 22 2003 04:45 PM Re: War against Iraq........Yes or No?
wez Offline
Multiloquent

Registered: Sun Sep 30 2001
Posts: 2521
Loc: Norwich
England UK        
Has anyone changed their mind in this rolling poll?
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