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#295476 - Tue Feb 07 2006 07:47 AM About Face...
ing Offline
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Registered: Wed Mar 30 2005
Posts: 1636
Loc: Canberra ACT Australia  
I think the whole face transplant thing is a bit creepy myself, but it sure makes for good news coverage...and is it just me, or does Ms Dinoire look a little bit like Hilary Clinton?

Actually I think the most interesting part of the story is why her pet labrador "attacked" her in the first place. We've been trying to puzzle it together all night, and the nearest we can get is that she took an overdose, was passed out, and the dog got upset and tried to rouse her. There's more to our theory, but some of you might be trying to eat ...all I can say is if the first she knew of it was when she "came to, tried to light a cigarette and couldn't work out why she couldn't hold it in her mouth", she must have taken some pretty outrageous drugs...

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#295477 - Tue Feb 07 2006 12:44 PM Re: About Face...
daver852 Offline
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Registered: Fri Jan 13 2006
Posts: 37
Loc: Illinois USA  
I've seen her and I think she is actually more attractive than Hillary.

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#295478 - Wed Feb 08 2006 07:03 AM Re: About Face...
ktstew Offline
Forum Champion

Registered: Tue Jan 18 2005
Posts: 8717
Loc: Arkansas USA
All Hillary jokes aside - I have to wonder along with Ing. Why was her own dog so upset that he tore her face apart trying to get a response - unless the woman really was in a drug induced stupor, and the dog sensed how much danger she was in.
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#295479 - Fri Feb 10 2006 04:17 AM Re: About Face...
ing Offline
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Registered: Wed Mar 30 2005
Posts: 1636
Loc: Canberra ACT Australia  
That's my theory kt.

DO NOT read on if squeamish!

Also wondered if perhaps the dog hadn't eaten for a while, and maybe if "Hillary" had "been sick" (as often happens when someone overdoses)...in fact, looking at it that way, the dog might have saved her life by keeping her from asphyxiating!

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#295480 - Fri Feb 10 2006 08:19 AM Re: About Face...
ktstew Offline
Forum Champion

Registered: Tue Jan 18 2005
Posts: 8717
Loc: Arkansas USA
Eww, Ing. As ghastly as it sounds, you could be right.

I wonder how she came to be chosen as a worthy recipient? Perhaps one's injuries have to fit a certain criteria in order to qualify. Certain burn victims might not respond well because of all the facial muscles being drawn and uncooperative - not to mention the extra heavy scar tissue these sad ones endure.That extra tissue causes even more immobility of the facial muscles than the initial injury.

It's a fascinating procedure, although a little unsettling to think about.
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A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is just putting on its shoes - Mark Twain

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#295481 - Fri Feb 10 2006 11:27 AM Re: About Face...
daver852 Offline
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Registered: Fri Jan 13 2006
Posts: 37
Loc: Illinois USA  
About three weeks ago, someone I know had his nose bitten off at a local bar.
Fortunately, they were able to reattach it, and now he looks fine except for a barely noticeable scar.

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#295482 - Fri Feb 10 2006 12:01 PM Re: About Face...
skunkee Offline
Forum Champion

Registered: Thu Oct 16 2003
Posts: 8884
Loc: Burlington Ontario Canada  
Quote:

About three weeks ago, someone I know had his nose bitten off at a local bar.




Now that is disgusting!
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#295483 - Fri Feb 10 2006 06:43 PM Re: About Face...
ing Offline
Prolific

Registered: Wed Mar 30 2005
Posts: 1636
Loc: Canberra ACT Australia  
That is disgusting - now I know why I gave up drinking!

As to how they decided this woman was worthy, I saw an interview with the (Australian) surgeon who trained the team which actually carried out the procedure. He was quite defensive when asked about her appropriateness, and actually confirmed that the dog "attack" had happened when she'd been comatose after taking an overdose. He said she'd been assessed by various psychs and counselled and had a whole new outlook and wanted to change her life and yadda yadda. But I think perhaps the real reason is that she was willing to do it...Remembering that this is the same team who did the first double hand transplant on a convicted felon (might even have been a murderer?) several years back and were asked the same questions then.

The interesting footnote to hand guy is that he actually did really well initially, but a bit down the track decided he didn't like "his" new hands, stopped taking the anti-rejection drugs, and wound up "mostly armless" again!

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#295484 - Fri Feb 10 2006 07:42 PM Re: About Face...
agony Online   content

Administrator

Registered: Sat Mar 29 2003
Posts: 11584
Loc: Western Canada
I find it a little odd that she had been selected, too. Not so much because her injury was as the result of something less morally defensible than a fire, say, but because of the psycological aspect. My experience with 'experimental' surgury is limited, but I did get on the list once for a new type of hearing enhancement - basically a hole was drilled in the skull and the device was inserted - you didn't hear better from your ears, but from vibrations through the skull bone. I had an enormous number of tests to take, all about my attitude towards life, how I deal with setbacks, do I blame others when things go wrong, do I blame myself, do I just realize that sometimes things mess up, nobody's fault......It became really obvious after a bit that they were looking for someone stable and balanced, able to look at things dispassionately, not likely to sink into despair if things went wrong, not likely to expect too much. None of this sounds like a person with substance abuse problems, however willing to 'turn her life around' she may be - even that, though positive, is a sign of instability in a way.

Doctors don't really look for someone who 'deserves' the surgury, or shouldn't, in my opinion, but they do look for a suitable subject; maybe it's just that her injuries were of the right sort.

By the way, I didn't go for the surgury - they told me the waiting list was a couple of years long, and then phoned me two weeks later and said "Get in here by next Friday - it's a go!" I was just not prepared to do something so drastic on such short notice, so lost my chance.

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#295485 - Sat Feb 11 2006 12:12 PM Re: About Face...
charlee0216 Offline
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Registered: Fri Dec 23 2005
Posts: 15
Loc: florida
While I believe this surgery could have great impacts for accident victims, there is a downside. Who is to say a criminial cannot have his face "re-done' so that no one recognizes him? While plastic surgery can greatly alter a face, this new procedure can entirely change it.
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#295486 - Sat Feb 11 2006 01:04 PM Re: About Face...
Bruyere Offline
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Registered: Sat Feb 10 2001
Posts: 18361
Loc: California USA
I need to say that I believe the French are the biggest consumers of anti depressants in Europe if not elsewhere.
I know that doctors hand them out as if they were Breath mints for the slightest bout with depression.

I believe that depending on the source you consult, their rate is twice that of their European neighbors. This is for several reasons, and one of them is that the French produce quite a few of these drugs and they are reimbursed through their medical system.

I often wonder if the suicide rate isn't higher because of the availability of these heavy duty tranquilizers etc at home.

One alarming thing about the poor woman is that, she's going to take up smoking again and was sneaking smokes in the hospital. She's openly declaring that she is going to smoke again.

I think that she had a pretty sad life before this occured, and it does not seem that the medical establishment had anything more to help her than probably overprescribing heavy duty drugs.
I'm not judging whether she 'deserved' the treatment or not, that's not my decision, but, I just see a woman who had a pretty sad life and who the medical establishment in France, like in many other countries, probably responded by giving her the works in terms of prescriptions.
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#295487 - Sun Feb 12 2006 04:31 AM Re: About Face...
colliwobbles Offline
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Registered: Tue Nov 01 2005
Posts: 45
Loc: Ferny Creek Victoria Australia
Quote:



I often wonder if the suicide rate isn't higher because of the availability of these heavy duty tranquilizers etc at home.

I think that she had a pretty sad life before this occured, and it does not seem that the medical establishment had anything more to help her than probably overprescribing heavy duty drugs.
I'm not judging whether she 'deserved' the treatment or not, that's not my decision, but, I just see a woman who had a pretty sad life and who the medical establishment in France, like in many other countries, probably responded by giving her the works in terms of prescriptions.




Seems to be a lot of generalising going on here.
Anti-depressants are not "heavy duty tranquilizers". (Valium etc are, but are not anti-depressants). I am writing this as a doctor myself, not as a knee jerk reaction, but to make the point that anti-depressants are an appropriate part of the management of depression for many people. I have seen them make huge differences in peoples lives, at times being life-saving. Of course they must be prescribed appropriately, and they are not the whole answer. They should be combined with counselling and appropriate psycho-social interventions. They do help. I am not some lackey of the drug companies, just somebody who wants the best for my patients.

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#295488 - Sun Feb 12 2006 12:52 PM Re: About Face...
Bruyere Offline
Star Poster

Registered: Sat Feb 10 2001
Posts: 18361
Loc: California USA
If you look up the stats for France, you'll see what I mean though. I also know from living there for so many years that, many people are prescribed medication immediately for the slightest personal problem or especially, work related problems and in some instances, the latter is so that you can claim depression, nervous breakdowns etc to get compensated.

Here's a small abstract issued by the National Health insurance website and I believe it's got an English version on the page.
http://www.ameli.fr/235/DOC/2360/article.html

The French apparently outstrip the European neighbors in consumption of psychotropic medication by leaps and bounds.
Twice the rate of the Spanish, 5 times the Germans, 8 times the British. That's pretty signficant.
Although I'm getting a few studies that show the Brits are outstripping the others for pediatric prescription now.

There is a great amount of fraud in the French system and I really am not overgeneralizing, sadly enough. I only wish I were.
I've even heard people I knew recommend faking illness for higher compensation and leave benefits. Taking that prescription is part of the treatment, so, whether they actually comply or not is unknown, but they have to fill that prescription therefore they'll have it in the house.

I do not dispute the fact that anti depressants or psychotropics are a necessary part of a doctor's therapy, but, I've seen the way some people use that health system.
The current state of affairs is that if you want a doctor who will renew your prescription of something, and Doctor A won't, you go to Doctor B. This exists in other countries, but I don't think they reimburse all these visits. I don't know about the other European countries except for Italy, but, having a doctor write you a note even if it's stretching things, is common practice and openly advised by friends and relatives without embarrassment.
I was the contrary, I took doctor A's advice, got the prescription to take if I really felt bad after losing my job, then, went to doctor B to get clear of things in a different and healthier fashion. If I hadn't had other things to get me through that, who is to say I might not have given in to temptation and taken a cocktail of stuff lying around the house?

I think what I want to point out is that the lady in question would not have been cut off from her benefits if she'd had work related problems (which is not a bad thing obviously) but that she would have had ample access to a number of drugs, maybe filled prescriptions just to be reimbursed by her insurance, then they would be there on the shelf.

Another thing, whether it's over generalizing or not, but, seniors are routinely prescribed a panoply of medication for every single conceivable thing. Some of my French family members are taking about ten or twelve different medications twice a day. The average medicine cabinet of a senior is full of prescriptions and frequently on TV, they ask for these at the pharmacies to recycle them or dispose of them properly. I've heard of two people we've known checked in for overdosing on prescription medication during a depressing incident.

The Italians are not to that level, nor do I think they ever will be.

Back to the poor lady in question, I think I wanted to show how in France, with the current state of health care, she would have had the full range of benefits, including pyschiatric care or psychological help. She would probably have had the right to an aide to help her at home if she qualified, which many many people do.
But, if she was really distraught over her problems and had 'overconsulted' doctors around her area and had a full medicine cabinet because she'd gone from one to the other, she would have had the necessary cocktail to drown out her problems. I feel more compassion than anything else.

The French system is excellent for some things, but, because it's all reimbursed (my alternative care was a regular MD with training in Eastern therapy and methods of treatment and was not reimbursed fully) people tend to overconsume things.

As to her transplant, the one thing I find disturbing is that she's openly defiant of her physician's telling her to stop smoking because of, besides the obvious reasons, circulatory concerns.

I think the dog may have saved her life as well as risked it.
_________________________
I was born under a wandering star.

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#295489 - Mon Feb 13 2006 08:13 AM Re: About Face...
colliwobbles Offline
Participant

Registered: Tue Nov 01 2005
Posts: 45
Loc: Ferny Creek Victoria Australia
Those prescribing differences between the nations are certainly significant if correct, and it is unfortunate if the system supports abuse of medical management. I also am appalled that she would continue smoking after being given so much. If she loses that transplant, she'll revert to a terrible existence.

I am also surprised that the name of the donor has been publicised. In Australia there is a strict policy of anonymity for organ donation. While a particular individual may be identified as having been a donor, to publicise organ donation, it is never revealed whose organs went to a particular recipient.

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#295490 - Mon Feb 13 2006 08:59 AM Re: About Face...
ktstew Offline
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Registered: Tue Jan 18 2005
Posts: 8717
Loc: Arkansas USA

"...surgery could have great impacts for accident victims, there is a downside. Who is to say a criminial cannot have his face re-done' so that no one recognizes him?..."

Actually, Charlee - extreme plastic surgery which completely alters the appearance of people on both sides of the law has been common for decades. We know several of Hitler's elite staff went under the knife after the war was over, and joined mainstream society - usually in some South American city.

In modern times, wealthy criminals often have their looks completely altered in order to pass un- noticed on the street, allowing them to remain in their native country and not constantly be on the run. The same goes for criminal accomplices who turn 'State's Evidence" and exchange valuable information concerning the crime and it's other participants for a new face and and a reasonable guarantee of future safety. It depends on how valuable that volunteered information is in obtaining a conviction as to how elaborate the benefits are. This
same system also protects victims of violent crime via something called the Federal Witness Protection Program [ WITSEC] here in the States. Victims [and sometimes their immediate families] of violent crimes are drastically changed in appearance and guaranteed police protection, relocation to a new community, notification of either death of the convicted criminal or their release date, emotional counseling plus other benefits.
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A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is just putting on its shoes - Mark Twain

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