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#464110 - Thu Mar 26 2009 10:19 AM No place to put the quiz?
funnybuni Offline
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I want to make a quiz on creationism. However, there does not seem to be a spot for it. There is a place for quizzes on evolution, but not creationism. I do not want to put it in "religion" because that is not the proper place for it - sci/tech I believe would be much more of a proper place for it (creationism isn't based off of 'because the Bible says so', but off of actual scientific findings), but I do not know which sub-category. Help?
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#464111 - Thu Mar 26 2009 10:48 AM Re: No place to put the quiz?
jonnowales Offline
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Not to debate the validity of creationism here, but, creationism is not a science because it cannot be proven or disproven. Of course, crisw is the only person who can say for certain whether she will accept the quiz there or not.

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#464112 - Thu Mar 26 2009 11:12 AM Re: No place to put the quiz?
agony Offline

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It'll be up to crisw, but according to the Wikipedia article on creation science,

"According to the United States National Academy of Sciences, creation science fails to meet the key criteria of any true science because it lacks empirical support, supplies no tentative hypotheses, and resolves to describe natural history in terms of scientifically untestable supernatural events.[7] The teaching of creation science in public schools in the United States effectively ended in 1987 when the United States Supreme Court determined the creation science taught in Louisiana public schools was not a legitimate scientific theory, and ruled its teaching unconstitutional in Edwards v. Aguillard because its true purpose was to advance a particular religious belief."

I doubt if this quiz will fit under the SciTech category.

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#464113 - Thu Mar 26 2009 11:44 AM Re: No place to put the quiz?
WesleyCrusher Offline
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If I were to write a creationism quiz, I would probably try Humanities/Philosophy or Humanities/Miscellaneous since creationism is somewhat of a a cultural science, based on writings more than on empirical support. Not an exact match but probably the closest FT has to offer.

An editor might have an even better idea, but this would be my first try.
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#464114 - Thu Mar 26 2009 01:02 PM Re: No place to put the quiz?
funnybuni Offline
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I would be all right with putting it into "humanities". That is actually quite a good idea. I still say putting the quiz into the Sci/Tech it works as well as evolution fitting into the religion category, but oh well. You can't win them all.

I will not get into an argument here, but here's one (of many) "scientific" aspects of evolution just makes no sense to me; how did the big bang happen, if there was no matter or energy to make the bang? The matter and energy had to come from somewhere... so nothing exploded, and made the universe?

And that is all I will say on that subject. From here on out, all of funnybuni's replies will be about where to place the quiz.


Edited by funnybuni (Thu Mar 26 2009 01:05 PM)
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#464115 - Thu Mar 26 2009 01:18 PM Re: No place to put the quiz?
jonnowales Offline
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I can't help myself It is just because I love this subject, rather than arguing. But, you have given a reason why evolution may be invalid (scientists enjoy that) not a reason why creationism is valid. Two very different things.

I think humanities could be a good place for this - though we could hear from CellarDoor who could perhaps inform you if it fits into religion or not.

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#464116 - Thu Mar 26 2009 01:32 PM Re: No place to put the quiz?
darthrevan89 Offline
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I'd say that creationism belongs in religion. Whether it is based on religion or not, it involves religious concepts. Evolution has removed religion from the picture, and is just "science," hence its being located in Sci/Tech.


Edited by darthrevan89 (Thu Mar 26 2009 02:55 PM)

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#464117 - Thu Mar 26 2009 01:38 PM Re: No place to put the quiz?
funnybuni Offline
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If I WAS taking part in this conversation, I'd say "evolution needs logic - God doesn't". But since I'm not taking part in this conversation, I just want to stress how badly I don't want to put it in the religion category.

There are quizzes solely about about Jesus in "Holidays", there should be a place outside religion to put the facts and proofs of creationism (they exist). Since no one saw the big bang, it is accepted by society on faith, making it a religion they call science. Oh well, like I said, done "arguing". I will shut up now. Just someone please tell me what to do. I'm not out here to cause headaches, stress, or anger!


Edited by funnybuni (Thu Mar 26 2009 01:41 PM)
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#464118 - Thu Mar 26 2009 02:15 PM Re: No place to put the quiz?
Leau Offline
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I think maybe it's not so much about where you would place your quiz, as it is about where a potential player would go and look for it! If I wanted to play a quiz about creationism, I would definitely look in the Religion category first.
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#464119 - Thu Mar 26 2009 02:47 PM Re: No place to put the quiz?
funnybuni Offline
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I suppose I never thought of it that way before. When I go to look for a quiz, I usually search for it the first time. Oh well - this thread is mainly me trying to be as correct as possible.
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#464120 - Thu Mar 26 2009 03:42 PM Re: No place to put the quiz?
CellarDoor Offline
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As a Religion editor in my spare time and a scientist as my full-time job, this is certainly a question about which I have many strong opinions!

A Creationism quiz could certainly go in the Religion category, depending on how it's constructed, and as Leau says that's probably where your average player would go first. Jonnowales is correct, however, that it isn't scientific. Concluding that there's something wrong with evolution isn't at all the same thing as concluding that therefore all life was created in its present form by a supreme being. The first one might be a scientific conclusion; the second one is a religious conclusion. Science by definition deals only with the natural, not with the supernatural.

Again depending on how it's structured, I think it could find a home in Humanities as well.

Respecting your desire not to get into a debate, I do just want to address (as a scientist) two of your comments, neither of which is about evolution:

Quote:

here's one (of many) "scientific" aspects of evolution just makes no sense to me; how did the big bang happen, if there was no matter or energy to make the bang? The matter and energy had to come from somewhere... so nothing exploded, and made the universe?




The Big Bang has nothing to do with evolution. Evolution is the theory of how life has developed into new species after it began. Evolution does not say anything about how life began, or how the universe began, or how the sun gives light, or anything like that -- it strictly has to do with the way that life forms develop over many generations, and nothing else.

Quote:

Since no one saw the big bang, it is accepted by society on faith, making it a religion they call science.


Of course no one saw the Big Bang, but that doesn't mean that there isn't evidence for it. In the same way, if you come across pieces of several cars on a deserted highway, you could reasonably say that there had been a pileup, even though you didn't witness it yourself and didn't hear any eyewitness testimony. It may interest you to know that the Big Bang Theory was not accepted by most scientists for decades -- the name was actually coined in order to make fun of it -- and that it was only the weight of the tremendous evidence for the Big Bang that eventually swayed the community.
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#464121 - Thu Mar 26 2009 03:59 PM Re: No place to put the quiz?
crisw Offline
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Aw. CellarDoor beat me to it!

Funnybuni, can I suggest that, before you write your creationism quiz, you play those quizzes in the Evolution category, especially the quiz on creationist myths? I wrote most of those quizzes and I really do think you might learn something from them. Please try to have an open mind on this. Please feel free to PM me with any questions that you have after playing the quizzes- many creationists have done so.


Edited by crisw (Thu Mar 26 2009 04:00 PM)
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#464122 - Thu Mar 26 2009 05:30 PM Re: No place to put the quiz?
funnybuni Offline
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I will take the quizzes, although my quiz will probably shed light on your "myths" that have been scientifically proven to not be myths (by my own research - could be wrong)

I could go on and on on what CellarDoor gave in defense to my remarks, and nail it into the ground, but again, I don't want a debate. I will just say that those answers don't answer the questions satisfactorily enough for me. In the end, you say tomato, you know?

When the time comes to submit, I suppose I will either submit it to humanities or religion, although it could easily wind up being a quiz not on creationism, but on what scientists are keeping quiet about evolution... hmmm...

Thanks everybody! I guess I have officially caused the FT Forum Controversy for the day!


Edited by funnybuni (Thu Mar 26 2009 05:32 PM)
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#464123 - Thu Mar 26 2009 05:47 PM Re: No place to put the quiz?
jonnowales Offline
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Any topic that brings up science is fine by me It even sparked (or accelerated the completion of) a new quiz on evolution. So all is good I really would be interested to hear what evolutionary biologists are 'hiding' though I don't suppose this would be the right sub-forum to discuss it in.

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#464124 - Thu Mar 26 2009 06:58 PM Re: No place to put the quiz?
crisw Offline
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Quote:

will take the quizzes, although my quiz will probably shed light on your "myths" that have been scientifically proven to not be myths (by my own research - could be wrong)

I could go on and on on what CellarDoor gave in defense to my remarks, and nail it into the ground, but again, I don't want a debate. I will just say that those answers don't answer the questions satisfactorily enough for me. In the end, you say tomato, you know?




As I mentioned, please PM me. I would love to know what you think scientists are hiding, and to see your cites to scientific journals and reports and other scientific sources to back up your claims. Of course you aren't pulling this all off websites like Answers in Genesis, rather than from actual scientific sources, right?

Yes, that is a bit sarcastic. I spend quite a bit of time on the creationism issue, and I do get a bit testy.

I would also be very, very interested in your specific feedback on anything you find in error in my evolution quizzes.

I'll be watching for your quiz- I am sure I will have some feedback on it!

And yes, thanks for prompting me to finish the latest evolution quiz in the series, which had been sitting on the back burner since 2007


Edited by crisw (Thu Mar 26 2009 07:01 PM)
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#464125 - Fri Mar 27 2009 07:50 AM Re: No place to put the quiz?
funnybuni Offline
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No, definitely not from Answers in Genesis. I cannot stand it when people say "God created the earth because the Bible said so". That is not a real answer!

Perhaps I will PM you. The main reason I don't want to (and the reason I haven't yet written a quiz on creationism!) is because I know I will get challenged, and get mad because I know I'm right... and probably get suspended or something. So when I'm positive I can be calm about the subject, I will PM you, Not that I'm hot-tempered or anything about people telling me I'm wrong.

And by the way, CellarDoor, you never really answered my Big Bang question.
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#464126 - Fri Mar 27 2009 10:28 AM Re: No place to put the quiz?
crisw Offline
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Quote:

I know I will get challenged, and get mad because I know I'm right... and probably get suspended or something.




Trust me, you'd never get suspended for challenging me- you wouldn't be the first! In fact, please check out my blog, which is composed almost entirely of a debate I had with a FunTrivia creationist.

You can't just "know you're right"- you have to have the data to back it. up. I've shown my data in many places- including my blog and my series of quizzes here. So, bring it on

What,exactly, did CellarDoor not answer about your Big Bang question? Hint...because she is too modest to mention, she is a Harvard-trained physicist. She knows very well what she is talking about when it comes to the Big Bang!
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#464127 - Fri Mar 27 2009 10:43 AM Re: No place to put the quiz?
CellarDoor Offline
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Quote:

And by the way, CellarDoor, you never really answered my Big Bang question.




Do you mean
Quote:

how did the big bang happen, if there was no matter or energy to make the bang? The matter and energy had to come from somewhere... so nothing exploded, and made the universe?


Since you said you didn't want a debate, I thought you must have meant that as a rhetorical question. The smiley you used also seemed to indicate that you didn't really want an answer.

I just spent some time typing up an extremely long answer, but then I realized that it probably isn't right to bore the very fine people of the Quizzyland Forum with an extended discussion of what the Big Bang Theory does and does not attempt to explain. I'd be happy to continue this discussion via PM or if you want to start a thread in the "Why Is the Sky Blue?" forum (I think that's the most appropriate place).

I would be very interested in continuing the discussion, myself, because I am still extremely confused as to why you claim that the Big Bang Theory is an "aspect of evolution." They are completely different things.

Edit to add: Crisw is far too kind.


Edited by CellarDoor (Fri Mar 27 2009 10:45 AM)
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#464128 - Fri Mar 27 2009 11:40 AM Re: No place to put the quiz?
funnybuni Offline
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#464129 - Fri Mar 27 2009 12:32 PM Re: No place to put the quiz?
crisw Offline
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Thanks. This should be fun.
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#464130 - Sat Mar 28 2009 07:03 AM Re: No place to put the quiz?
Gamemaster1967 Offline
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I have to say I found this topic wildly fascinating! Thanks for the discussion. I am a firm believer in the evolution of species on this planet. My family are all creationists and basically charge me with blasphemy whenever I express the alternate belief of evolution.

I will say one thing about creationists "knowing" they are correct. The reason they do not need physical proof is because they have "faith". I can completely see that POV, and sometimes find myself slightly envious of their faith. My faith is in science, always has been. But, I have noticed as I get older that I am starting to question the "science only" rule I have inside my head.

Lastly.. I feel that creationism and evolution are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Why couldn't "God" have created the universe so it would unfold as it scientifically has.. making evolution of species possible? I do not think a deep belief in God negates science or vice versa.


These are just my opinions/feelings. I am not addressing anything specific anyone else has stated here or challenging anyone else's set of beliefs. I know the entire topic began as a quest to find a home for a quiz, but it was so nice to read everyone's feelings on the subject.


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#464131 - Sun Mar 29 2009 05:12 AM Re: No place to put the quiz?
sue943 Offline
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Before anyone asks about the other thread which was in "Why Is The Sky Blue?", it has been removed. The thread ought never to have been started as the topic matter was controversial and since the Controversial Issues forum was removed some years back we have had a policy of not permitting such threads.
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