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#517148 - Thu Mar 18 2010 02:39 PM Expert Googlers
Anton Offline
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Is there something that can be done about people Googling in the expert game? Taking four minutes is unacceptable. To truly be an expert, you must know something about the topic and not what Google can tell you. A time penalty of five points per second will kill any chance of a Googler winning.

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#517149 - Thu Mar 18 2010 02:51 PM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: Anton]
spanishliz Offline
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A time penalty such as you suggest will kill any fun that game has left for me, which isn't very much even with a two second penalty. I don't google, I have a slow computer, yet you would lump me in with the googlers. It is hard enough to compete with the speed demons in Expert the way it is now.

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#517150 - Thu Mar 18 2010 03:00 PM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: spanishliz]
Anton Offline
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How about making the expert game like the brain melt? Having an untimed and a timed set. The untimed set would stay like the game is now, and the timed set would have a severe time penalty. Both sets would give an expert win in your profile. An incentive for playing the timed set would be 500 points per win or some kind of bonus.

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#517151 - Thu Mar 18 2010 03:03 PM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: Anton]
guitargoddess Offline
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But then wouldn't a lot of people just choose to play untimed for unfamiliar topics, and still win with times of like 300 seconds?
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#517152 - Thu Mar 18 2010 03:14 PM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: guitargoddess]
Anton Offline
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Yes, but people who are familiar to those topics would win. They would only have to look up a couple answers (if any at all), whereas someone unfamiliar to the topic would have to look up the majority of the answers.

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#517153 - Thu Mar 18 2010 03:35 PM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: Anton]
spanishliz Offline
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Now that's an idea I like, Anton. I could live with that

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#517154 - Thu Mar 18 2010 03:42 PM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: spanishliz]
guitargoddess Offline
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But... that's true of the situation right now. A Googler isn't going to win if there's someone who is familiar with the category, you don't need to separate it into timed/untimed for that... And then on the timed side you could have people winning with like only 8 answers right simply because they can breeze through 15 questions in 25 seconds.
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#517155 - Thu Mar 18 2010 04:07 PM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: guitargoddess]
Terry Offline

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Completely agree with GG. It is fairly well balanced as is IMO.

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#517156 - Thu Mar 18 2010 05:19 PM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: guitargoddess]
Anton Offline
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Quote:

But... that's true of the situation right now. A Googler isn't going to win if there's someone who is familiar with the category, you don't need to separate it into timed/untimed for that... And then on the timed side you could have people winning with like only 8 answers right simply because they can breeze through 15 questions in 25 seconds.




The top two scores in the Metallica topic a couple hours ago were Googlers. I am familiar with that topic and was only 5th or 6th when I played. I guarantee you if they hadn't Googled, they wouldn't be top two. I wouldn't have won, but there was at least one person ahead of me that didn't Google who would have won.

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#517157 - Thu Mar 18 2010 05:22 PM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: Anton]
nasty_liar Offline
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I think it's easy to forget that for some of us a topic that we are very good at takes longer. I often find myself taking 150-200 seconds (so roughly 3 minutes) racking my brains about the answers of something that I know is in there somewhere. I was doing that on the Star Wars books category earlier, a category that I would reckon myself to be good at. To penalise one so heavily for thinking about it seems overly harsh.

I find it frustrating that there are so many players that seem to be able to churn out a 15/15 in 50 seconds or so in a category that I consider myself expert in but I have to think about the answers to get them all right. There's no point complaining about it, it's part of the game. As is people taking longer getting more right.

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#517158 - Thu Mar 18 2010 05:28 PM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: Anton]
guitargoddess Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

But... that's true of the situation right now. A Googler isn't going to win if there's someone who is familiar with the category, you don't need to separate it into timed/untimed for that... And then on the timed side you could have people winning with like only 8 answers right simply because they can breeze through 15 questions in 25 seconds.




The top two scores in the Metallica topic a couple hours ago were Googlers. I am familiar with that topic and was only 5th or 6th when I played. I guarantee you if they hadn't Googled, they wouldn't be top two. I wouldn't have won, but there was at least one person ahead of me that didn't Google who would have won.




Right... but the exact same thing would have happened if it had been untimed. So dividing it into timed and untimed wouldn't really make a difference, because someone can just choose to play untimed if they're going to Google.
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#517159 - Thu Mar 18 2010 06:03 PM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: guitargoddess]
mehaul Offline
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I do not see it considered here and I would like to mix the issue of poor vision into the discussion.
My vision is poor. I know some topics very well but when the quiz results post, I am often down in the standings below some who have gotten fewer correct. That lower rank is not due to Google time but to difficulty in reading time.
But I still take timed tests because in several of the areas, avoiding the timed tests and only doing untimed hurts my team's score. No time, no team points (especially Mind melt) So even if I know I'm not going to be in first place, I play the timed version.
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#517160 - Thu Mar 18 2010 06:07 PM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: guitargoddess]
Prison Offline
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I know this might make me look like a hypocrite for saying this since I've googled to win a bunch of titles in the past but I think what needs to happen is a time penalty kicking in after a set time like in Gold Member Madness. What is it in there, 180? If so, that's a good number. (Actually, it might need to be a lot lower since each second is 2 points deducted, like 140)

Some people have googled to win a good 100 titles, which they probably didn't even need since they already have Jack of All Trades.

@nasty_liar: Yeah, I've seen questions that were comprised of 3 paragraphs and without identing. Those need to be purged.

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#517161 - Thu Mar 18 2010 06:13 PM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: Prison]
Terry Offline

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Hmm isn't the penalty time already "graduated" in there, or is it simple 2 pts per second?

If so, then yeah, a system like that used in GMM is probably best.

Also, I can pretty easily filter out long questions.

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#517162 - Thu Mar 18 2010 06:17 PM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: Terry]
Prison Offline
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No, it's only 2 points/sec.

If the 2 point penalty is held onto then a good time for something like 10 point penalties will be around 140-160 seconds.


Edited by Prison (Thu Mar 18 2010 06:18 PM)

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#517163 - Thu Mar 18 2010 06:21 PM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: Prison]
MotherGoose Offline
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Quote:

The top two scores in the Metallica topic a couple hours ago were Googlers. I am familiar with that topic and was only 5th or 6th when I played. I guarantee you if they hadn't Googled, they wouldn't be top two. I wouldn't have won, but there was at least one person ahead of me that didn't Google who would have won.





Now how on earth could you possibly know that?

Do you know these people or are you just speculating?
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#517164 - Thu Mar 18 2010 06:36 PM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: MotherGoose]
guitargoddess Offline
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MG, it's kind of obvious when people who normally get 15/15 in less than 40 seconds show up in "harder" categories with 15/15 in 258 seconds. Computer/internet connection failure is always possible of course, but it's a little coincedental when it ONLY happens on the more specific or obscure categories and never in the ones where it's basically just a speed contest.
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#517165 - Thu Mar 18 2010 06:44 PM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: MotherGoose]
agony Online   content

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I've beat Googlers in categories I know, so there *is* a time penalty that helps you, if you are reasonably quick yourself. I've also considered Googling myself, when I see top score as something like 15/15 in 292 seconds. I've never done it, because I want to get Jack of All Trades all on my own without researching, but I *could*. And so could you.

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#517166 - Thu Mar 18 2010 06:44 PM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: guitargoddess]
mehaul Offline
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Prison,
I am lucky if I can finish any quiz in less than 120 secs. And you want to start add er subtracting more points from my score?
There should be some browser signatures that can be recognized to assess penalties and not the time it takes to read ten, fifteen, twenty or twenty-five questions.
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Dreams allow escape from the passage of Time.

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#517167 - Thu Mar 18 2010 06:51 PM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: mehaul]
Prison Offline
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Loc: Florida USA
I was hesitant to think about a score destroying penalty enforced after what appeared to be a short time. However, what could happen is that the Expert game could follow the GMM time penalty and remove the old 2 pt/sec one.

Long questions which eat up the clock can be purged so that's knocking off several seconds.

I'm not sure whether a "browser signature" can be easily implemented, if at all. Besides, what could determine a person's placement into this category? Taking more than a certain # of seconds?

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#517168 - Thu Mar 18 2010 06:53 PM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: Prison]
BxBarracuda Offline
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Registered: Wed Sep 05 2007
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New York USA     
I don't google when taking timed quizes, I am not a fan of googling, I avoid the games, or hourly expert categories, where googling seems to be prevalent.

There is enough on the site to enjoy or challenge myself about how much I really know, that I don't need to play every game, every hour, or every day on the site.

For some of the obscure expert categories there is another way to score perfect, that would be to see the topic early and then take all the quizzes in that category and hope you remmeber them all when you take the quiz.

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#517169 - Thu Mar 18 2010 07:17 PM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: BxBarracuda]
mehaul Offline
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Does one really even have to Google for some answers?
Couldn't I open two Fun Trivia windows and have one set to surf the FT encyclopedia? All the questions' answers are there, aren't they?
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#517170 - Thu Mar 18 2010 07:19 PM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: BxBarracuda]
Terry Offline

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Registered: Wed Dec 31 1969
Posts: 18132
Loc: USA
I take a look at today's (extremely obscure to most people) Team Heroes, and see some scores like this:

1. Prison Florida, USA classicalmusic/mensan 15 190 1310

2. piet Netherlands classicalmusic/mensan 15 268 1232

I'm assuming these were googled?

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#517171 - Thu Mar 18 2010 07:25 PM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: Terry]
Prison Offline
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Registered: Thu Dec 25 2008
Posts: 63
Loc: Florida USA
Indeed. Gotta help my team.

In this case, we're not shutting anyone else out from a title or anything. However, if you feel a similar time penalty needs to be placed I won't protest.


Edited by Prison (Thu Mar 18 2010 07:34 PM)

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#517172 - Thu Mar 18 2010 07:29 PM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: Prison]
Terry Offline

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Registered: Wed Dec 31 1969
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Ok, next hour I'm making the following changes to expert:

- graduated time penalty like GMM. Very little penalty for under 120 seconds. Anything over that and the penalty increases at a steeper rate. By 200 seconds it should be entirely prohibitive.

- questions are limited to 2-3 lines.

We'll see how it goes. If it works well for Expert, we'll do the same thing with Team Heroes, which is effectively the same game.


Edited by Terry (Thu Mar 18 2010 07:44 PM)

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#517173 - Thu Mar 18 2010 08:00 PM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: Terry]
mehaul Offline
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England is my worst subject. I had to carefully read each question, I only triggered a quick hit on a Notting Hill question and still took 177 secs to complete my level's version of the quiz. Did I lose poits by taking so long? I had seven correct.


Edited by mehaul (Thu Mar 18 2010 08:04 PM)
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#517174 - Thu Mar 18 2010 08:03 PM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: mehaul]
Terry Offline

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<< England is my worst subject. I had to carefully read ead question, I only triggered a quick hit on a Notting Hill question and still took 177 secs to complete my level's version of the quiz. Did I lose poits by taking so long? I had seven correct. >>

Seems a fair score for your worst subject.

Prison, I'd like to erase your score this hour and see how you go with a different question set googling. Want to try?

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#517175 - Thu Mar 18 2010 08:15 PM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: Terry]
WesleyCrusher Offline

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I think actually Expert and Team Heroes should be treated differently. In Expert, we are looking at who is the best in a certain field. This game is supposed to be played by specialists. It absolutely needs to have stiff time penalties beyond a certain level to ensure a researched 14 doesn't beat an actually known 10.

Team Heroes, I see exactly the opposite way. It is a pretty casual game in which you want to help your team and it should *encourage* doing all you can, including research, to get your team a good score in a category you know little about (which usually means like 80% of them). Without research, this game would mean that on a topic like today's, 99% of non-Australians would either need to mindlessly guess or not play at all - hardly a goal for a game supposed to heighten team spirit and make players contribute something to their team every day, not once per week. I'd not mind if that game were changed to explicitly encourage research - no individual badges or victories are at stake and it's about giving one's best.
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#517176 - Thu Mar 18 2010 08:59 PM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: WesleyCrusher]
mehaul Offline
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Then how about registering visually impaired players and not imposing penalties for high times to those players?
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Dreams allow escape from the passage of Time.

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#517177 - Thu Mar 18 2010 09:09 PM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: mehaul]
Terry Offline

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Registered: Wed Dec 31 1969
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<< Then how about registering visually impaired players and not imposing penalties for high times to those players? >>

While I completely empathize with such conditions, it's simply not workable. We'd likely have all sorts of people who are completely fine claiming such exemptions with no way to verify. We'd also then have to specifically cater to those with learning disabilities, players with physical disabilities, etc etc. Oh yes, and anyone over 70? Completely unworkable.

I am absolutely confident that the visually impaired have an enormous amount of quizzes and games accessible to them.

I think that in life we all have certain strengths and weaknesses and that we will all encounter playing fields that aren't entirely level for us. There's nothing wrong with that.

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#517178 - Thu Mar 18 2010 09:14 PM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: mehaul]
mehaul Offline
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Without google: Alternative Rock
I had to read all the presented lyrics carefully to be able to get a correct response (9/15) and it too 235 secs (around 15 secs per question)to end up with21 points. The player above me in the results only had 4 correct and got triple my points at 65!(at 3 secs per question)
I knew more than double without look ups than that person but got 1/3 the points or recognition.
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Dreams allow escape from the passage of Time.

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#517179 - Thu Mar 18 2010 09:19 PM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: mehaul]
Terry Offline

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Registered: Wed Dec 31 1969
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Have tweaked the upper limit down a bit.

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#517180 - Thu Mar 18 2010 09:19 PM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: Terry]
mehaul Offline
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I accept the fact that I'm not going to be the fastest and I really can understand the difficulties you cite. The penalties for high quiz times though are discouraging. All they serve to accomplish is to put the physically able further ahead.
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If you aren't seeing Heaven while you dream, you're doing something wrong.
Dreams allow escape from the passage of Time.

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#517181 - Thu Mar 18 2010 10:00 PM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: Terry]
Anton Offline
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Quote:

Ok, next hour I'm making the following changes to expert:

- graduated time penalty like GMM. Very little penalty for under 120 seconds. Anything over that and the penalty increases at a steeper rate. By 200 seconds it should be entirely prohibitive.

- questions are limited to 2-3 lines.

We'll see how it goes. If it works well for Expert, we'll do the same thing with Team Heroes, which is effectively the same game.




This is awesome. Thanks.

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#517182 - Fri Mar 19 2010 01:50 AM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: Anton]
triviapaul Offline
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Registered: Thu May 22 2008
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Just brainstorming here: I was wondering whether the flash format can be used in the expert game, with a 10 second time limit for every question.
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#517183 - Fri Mar 19 2010 02:00 AM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: triviapaul]
triviapaul Offline
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Some more brainstorming: Registered visually impaired members could get a slightly altered visual version of the site (scrambling, randomising letters, blanking out, etc) that would make it very unattractive to seeing people. I am thinking about white letters on white background or such. In winners lists they could be marked with a (VI).
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#517184 - Fri Mar 19 2010 02:21 AM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: triviapaul]
agony Online   content

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Registered: Sat Mar 29 2003
Posts: 11928
Loc: Western Canada
I'm missing something there, triviapaul. How would a visually impaired person be able to see white letters on a white background?

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#517185 - Fri Mar 19 2010 05:57 AM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: agony]
WesleyCrusher Offline

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Registered: Thu Sep 04 2008
Posts: 3908
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Hmmm... how about a completely different idea: There actually is a very simple way of preventing any googling during a game (short of using a second computer which definitely creates HEAVY inefficiency in getting results fast) - a Javascript event called OnBlur can detect the user switching away from the page and do something - ideally submit the quiz (so you can go and google, but by the time you come back, there's no more place to put your answer)!

Now before this gets implemented, however, we should make sure that we meet all interests. We want knowledge to beat research, but players also sometimes want to play with research, especially when playing a very weak topic to help out in Heroes or when confronted with it in GC hardcore and needing 10 correct but knowing only 6.

So - here's the deal. You can decide *game by game* whether you want the anti-googler switched on. If it's on, the Javascript snippet stops you from googling and it will also submit a code with your quiz (to stop cheaters from starting the quiz in "pure" mode but switching JS off in the browser and happily googling away). And if that correct code is received at the other end, your right answers are worth 125 instead of 100.

So with this in place, you can get an 1825 out of a GC set you are really proficient in (15 right in 50 secs). 12 known still gives you 1500 (minus time), the same as you'd get for googling 15 (but that takes longer), so the best you can even hope to beat with perfect, lightning-fast googling skills is a moderately fast 11. On the other hand, when your choice is to randomly click 15 buttons or at least try to research and learn or get that 10 in random Sports statistics for GC Hardcore, play "softie" mode and get 1000-1200 instead of 500.

With that setup, we'd not need the ever-steeper timers anymore, at least not to the extent they are now.

Just make sure that with the protector on, the game screen has a different background color or similarly obvious visual - you should always know in mid-game which variant you are playing. Or, at second thought - just make the protected mode the default and simply let the OnBlur event forfeit the bonus instead of submitting. You start out with it active at all times and when you switch out, away go those points.

Checking off criteria:
- Knowledge rewarded over research skill. Yep.
- Players can choose their mode of play. Yep.
- Knowledgeable, slower players at minimum disadvantage. Yep.
- Adding Fun to the FT games? I'd say so.

What do you all think?

Wes


Edited by WesleyCrusher (Fri Mar 19 2010 06:00 AM)
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#517186 - Fri Mar 19 2010 08:54 AM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: WesleyCrusher]
Terry Offline

Head Honcho

Registered: Wed Dec 31 1969
Posts: 18132
Loc: USA
<< There actually is a very simple way of preventing any googling during a game >>

Such a solution would be both very complicated (because onblur triggers every time focus is lost off any element and therefore every change would have to check to make sure focus is on something legit) and also incomplete.

use a laptop next to your desktop (the most obvious workaround).
disable javascript.
use a browser where you have that function disabled.
I bet you anything that some browsers would act weird or inconsistently with onblur too.

Also, players without javascript couldn't even play.

I think it's best to just assume that googling is here to stay, and use penalties that discourage it.

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#517187 - Fri Mar 19 2010 09:11 AM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: Terry]
Starlord Offline
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I'm game for pretty much any topic, I get some pretty abyssmal scores in some subjects. What slows me down is having to wade through a virtual epic novel just to find the question.

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#517188 - Fri Mar 19 2010 09:14 AM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: WesleyCrusher]
agony Online   content

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Posts: 11928
Loc: Western Canada
To me, Wesley, that all seems unnecessarily complex.

The way things are set up right now, a moderately fast person who knows the subject will beat a Googler who does not. A slow person who knows the subject can be beaten by a Googler who doesn't. A very slow person who knows the subject slightly can be beaten by a very fast person who doesn't know it at all and just guesses.

It seems to me that if you are very slow, for whatever reason, playing timed games is not the best use of your competitive time. You need to be moderately knowledgeable and moderately fast to win a timed game, and that seems reasonable.

Saying, in effect, "timed games are not fair to me because I am slow" is the same as the googlers saying "knowledge games are not fair to me because I don't know anything." If you are very slow, or must look up every answer, then you're just not competitive in this game. You can still play, but not win, or you can do some of the other things available onsite.

I'm not unsympathetic to the problem of being a competitive visually impaired person. My son is legally blind, and had to resign himself early to the reality that there are some things he just cannot do quickly. Technology can be some help - increased font size and increased contrast help with some games. A good memory and the ability to cut to the heart of a question also really help. In real life he gets large print exams and some extra time to write them. In virtual life, online, he competes as best he can with sighted people and cherishes the times when his quick wits win out over someone else's good vision.

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#517189 - Fri Mar 19 2010 09:31 AM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: agony]
Terry Offline

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Posts: 18132
Loc: USA
Best post of the week Agony. Precisely my thoughts on the topic.

It's the same as with our badges. Some of our badges can be won through knowledge, some through speed, some through perseverance, and some through a combination of these. It is not reasonable IMO to assume that everyone will have an equal opportunity to win each badge.

I fully understand that there are a lot of FT badges that I personally (the creator) would have no hope of ever obtaining. In a way, that adds value to our badge system and imbues them with at least some meaning.


Edited by Terry (Fri Mar 19 2010 09:32 AM)

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#517190 - Fri Mar 19 2010 09:49 AM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: agony]
lesley153 Offline
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Registered: Fri Sep 07 2007
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Loc: Bedford England UK           
I think we've agreed that there are a lot of explanations for slow times, and nobody can know for certain why someone else is slower than they are. Rusty fingers, steam-driven computers, bad eyesight, mid-quiz crashes. I've been in the middle of a quiz and answered the phone. I've even left a quiz to let someone in to read a meter, then gone back to the quiz.

I do like the idea of keeping questions down to a few lines. Questions the size of small novels are borderline OK in timed quizzes if you've seen the question before, and can remember what you're meant to be looking for. Sometimes you plough through one of these never-ending questions, and find that you can ignore everything except the last sentence - and they're not OK at all!

Going back to the original question, I don't know why people get so angry about other players googling. Once you start thinking about tweaking software to impede googling, you may as well forget the idea of open online quizzing, and just do the quizzes in a classroom. With invigilators.

"... he competes as best he can with sighted people and cherishes the times when his quick wits win out over someone else's good vision."
Good for him!


Edited to add:
Terry's post wasn't there when I started typing mine!


Edited by lesley153 (Fri Mar 19 2010 09:51 AM)
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#517191 - Fri Mar 19 2010 10:26 AM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: lesley153]
Anton Offline
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Loc: California USA
Quote:

I think we've agreed that there are a lot of explanations for slow times, and nobody can know for certain why someone else is slower than they are. Rusty fingers, steam-driven computers, bad eyesight, mid-quiz crashes. I've been in the middle of a quiz and answered the phone. I've even left a quiz to let someone in to read a meter, then gone back to the quiz.





True, but when players with a track record of being fast take four minutes on a 15 question game, there is Googling involved. I'm just saying.

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#517192 - Fri Mar 19 2010 11:22 AM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: Anton]
Terry Offline

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Posts: 18132
Loc: USA
I think that the site would be more enjoyable to googlers too if we could discourage it. It must be tiring having to google around everywhere looking for answers. I suppose once you start googling you can't really stop otherwise your scores plummet.

Seems a much better experience to me to just score poorly, learn from it and try to improve your scores over time.

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#517193 - Fri Mar 19 2010 11:38 AM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: Terry]
WesleyCrusher Offline

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Posts: 3908
Loc: Germany
Hmm... it seems that idea was just too radical. Okay. Maybe a much simpler idea than all this technical stuff that would also help address at least one legitimate concern of slower players:

Since it's usually unlikely a slow player with a handicap of some sort will win a division (there's almost always a faster player who knows just as much), why should we make them lose FT points for being slow as well? Can't we simply calculate the participation bonus as if the time penalty were a flat 1 in all games? You still couldn't win by playing slowly, but at least you'll get your points.

Rest of the post is just a technical remark. Read or ignore at your own peril

Wes

-----------------------------

On the technical side, the problem would actually be quite solvable - OnBlur checks if the focus is gained/lost by the element whose property you check. If you check on form, you'd have the desired effect - all activities inside the quiz form are legit, all outside are not.

Also, the "no Javascript" issue would be countered by the coded number the script is to return - essentially, you'd pass the script a random large number when generating the page, let it run a few calculations not easily or quickly simulated manually and check back the result on submit. (Challenge-response authorization). Without Javascript running, you'd always get back a default and it could be handled with game logic from there.

The only unsolvable issue is the laptop next to the main screen, but I'd really like to see someone post any score worth mentioning that way. Consistently switching attention and hands between two screens sets of input devices is not something I could associate with fast googling.

So, possible, likely yes. Maybe we could use it for one specific GM game someday instead of a sitewide control - the "what you really know" game .
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#517194 - Fri Mar 19 2010 11:58 AM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: Terry]
Terry Offline

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Posts: 18132
Loc: USA
It's an interesting thought Wes, although I'm pretty certain it would cause more problems than it would solve. The biggest is that you'd need to play with javascript enabled in your browser, otherwise players could just turn it off before playing to google.

Then there's the problem of someone accidentally clicking outside of the window, or hitting alt-tab for some reason, or some other system dialog box that pops up which takes away focus, etc. I can just envision a stream of complaints coming in "It told me I cheated and googled, and all I did was get rid of a norton virus popup box!! Give me my points back!!".

Perhaps if we were building a site for only SATs or something that sort of thing might be useful, but considering the risk/reward of it.... it doesn't look good.

As for giving slow players more points, perhaps that could some day happen for all games, but that's really a different issue. Slow players do have nearly 100,000 untimed quizzes, thousands of crosswords, a monster quiz, quiz creation, question quest submission, and other games they can play to earn enormous gobs of points, so I don't think we're lacking in ways for slow players to earn points!

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#517195 - Fri Mar 19 2010 11:59 AM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: Terry]
Terry Offline

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Registered: Wed Dec 31 1969
Posts: 18132
Loc: USA
(and I speak as a slow player!)

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#517196 - Fri Mar 19 2010 12:03 PM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: Terry]
BxBarracuda Offline
Forum Champion

Registered: Wed Sep 05 2007
Posts: 5094
Loc: Bronx
New York USA     
Thanks for the adjustments to the games Terry.

I agree, there is no such thing as a perfect system, but you have a way of coming close to it.

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#517197 - Fri Mar 19 2010 12:05 PM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: Terry]
WesleyCrusher Offline

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I'm just trying to find ways to satisfy both sides of the monthly "googlers and slow players" discussion

(And yes, I know about the possible issues with losing the window for reasons beyond control. That's why my afterthought came up - not having Javascript or getting anything to kill your form focus just nixes the bonus but you'd still get to play for the normal 100.)


Edited by WesleyCrusher (Fri Mar 19 2010 12:07 PM)
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#517198 - Fri Mar 19 2010 12:39 PM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: WesleyCrusher]
mehaul Offline
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Posts: 5396
Loc: Florida USA
Thank you Wesley for the attempt to more specifically spell out the idea I raised of a browser signature. It would be nice if we could attach a cheat monitor to every player like a wii controller. None of it's going to happen though. We slow players are going to have to suffer penalties because a few smart players sometimes cannot accept not being the best and take advantage of the situation.
So why impose penalties at all? Prison is arguably one of the most knowledgable players on the site and he admitted to googling. And for him to have the privilege of doing that once every twenty games (or less), I get penalized in almost all I play.
The stand that there are so many games not timed to play is like saying you can play around out here but only the real players get into the back room. I've said I know I'm not going to win. I accept that. Is the reason to play only to win? Or, is learning and fun part of the mix? Get rid of time penalties. they were a solution to a problem that can't be beat.


Edited by mehaul (Fri Mar 19 2010 01:26 PM)
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#517199 - Fri Mar 19 2010 03:15 PM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: Terry]
whee Offline
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Registered: Mon Aug 20 2007
Posts: 173
Loc: Castle Rock Colorado USA   
That sounds good. I can bing search real fast with the best of them, but it's much more fun when it's about the knowledge.

Worth noting that when playing from a mobile device which I do a lot, 140-150 seconds, not 120 is really the sweet spot. Maybe consider that slightly higher number, depending on what removing the novel-length questions does.

Btw - for all the tech solutions - just won't work. Can always find a way around it if you work hard enough at it. Besides, I like being able to get badges from a mobile device - only way I can compete in endurance like GC or the monthly badges.


Edited by whee (Fri Mar 19 2010 03:18 PM)

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#517200 - Fri Mar 19 2010 04:00 PM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: whee]
Prison Offline
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Registered: Thu Dec 25 2008
Posts: 63
Loc: Florida USA
Oops - I went to bed right before Terry posted his request of testing out the time limits.

If that offer still stands, I could give it a try.


Edited by Prison (Fri Mar 19 2010 04:01 PM)

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#517201 - Fri Mar 19 2010 04:42 PM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: Prison]
WesleyCrusher Offline

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Terry - was it intentional to have the time penalties jump at certain places? As it looks right now, you seem to have:

Up to 130 seconds: time in seconds.
131 to 200 seconds: (2x time in secs) minus 120
201 and above: (3x time in secs) minus 240

(There's another jump somewhere higher up to explain how 367 can already hit the max-out)

This makes the 131st second be a 12-point jump and the 201st even one of 83 pts(!), while all others are just 1 to 3.

Shouldn't this be something like:

Up to 130 seconds: time in seconds.
131 to 200 seconds: 130 + 3 for every second beyond 130 (secs x3 - 260)
201 and above: 340 + 5 for every second beyond 200 (secs x5 - 660)

Wes
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#517202 - Fri Mar 19 2010 09:26 PM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: WesleyCrusher]
mehaul Offline
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Loc: Florida USA
If you want a research/reward game wouldn't that type of effort be a 'not to be submitted until' a minimum amount of time had passed? Things you definitely spent time looking up whatever the lookup vehicle is (be it here, google, bing, wikipedia or kindle with an encyclopedia loaded on it) Set it up so all responses have to be submitted in two to three hundred seconds, none earlier, none later and actual amount of the time irrelevant. make them twenty five questions games and run a cummulative % correct value to determine a top ranking once a day/week/month.
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#517203 - Sat Mar 20 2010 08:25 AM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: mehaul]
1cyprus Offline
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Registered: Thu Apr 27 2006
Posts: 144
Loc: Gloucestershire England UK   
Isn't the real point, that this is a quiz site.That means a set of questions to test what YOU know, not what you can look up on google or whatever search engine?

So, with punative penalties for time, the quicker knowledgable players will still win over slower players.However, those who rely on a search engine will fare much worse, thus allowing slower knowledgable players to beat them!

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#517204 - Sat Mar 20 2010 08:47 AM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: 1cyprus]
WesleyCrusher Offline

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Loc: Germany
cyprus, unfortunately it doesn't work that way. Unless time penalties are so harsh to completely disqualify everyone but the fastest 25% of players, smart and fast folks will always have the time to google a few answers and that's all it takes to convert a good-but-not-quite-there 12 into a winning 15.

And yes, after a lot of thinking, I'd also advocate an untimed mode where you can just play the game for FT points, as if it were a quiz. Probably just the same 15 points per correct - if you want to use the game to learn by research instead of randomly clicking and then reading the answer screen, why not have the option, without affecting anyone's standing. It's definitely a lot more appealing to me than only having the choice between random clicks and not playing at all. Especially for the thematic sets: Expert, Pot of Gold and World Quiz, this could be a quite viable and fun way of getting better - just like the 195 day bus ride teaches us something new about a country every day.


Edited by WesleyCrusher (Sat Mar 20 2010 08:49 AM)
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#517205 - Sat Mar 20 2010 11:26 AM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: WesleyCrusher]
1cyprus Offline
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Registered: Thu Apr 27 2006
Posts: 144
Loc: Gloucestershire England UK   
I disagree Wesley, we aren't talking someone who needs to look two or three answers up.The problem is on many games players are taking 250-500 secs and still thriving.
That isn't looking up the odd answer, thats looking up many, those players shouldn't thrive.

The main problem is on more obscure subjects and someone who knows 12/15 has a chance of winning anyway if they're quick.

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#517206 - Sat Mar 20 2010 11:57 AM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: 1cyprus]
bucknallbabe Offline
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Registered: Thu Oct 30 2008
Posts: 136
Loc: Bedfordshire England UK      
I wonder if the fact there's a Jack of All Trades Badge which requires 100 Expert wins actually encourages "googling". I suspect there are very few people on this site who could rack up 100 Expert wins without research. 20 for the Jack of Many Trades, yes, as there may well be 20 related topics, but not 100. And if you're aiming for that Badge, you'll do what it takes - including looking things up.

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#517207 - Sat Mar 20 2010 01:00 PM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: bucknallbabe]
Midget40 Offline
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Registered: Mon Oct 27 2008
Posts: 5056
Loc: Perth Western Australia       
I want to know where these games are! (Seriously I want to play them and have a chance of winning one!)

Everyone I go into has someone already sitting at 15 right in about 50 - 70 seconds.

Googling couldn't help anyone in those cases surely?

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#517208 - Sat Mar 20 2010 01:13 PM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: Midget40]
davegrilla Offline
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Registered: Mon Jun 29 2009
Posts: 101
Loc: Connecticut USA
Perhaps using a gradually increasing time penalty would be satisfactory.
For example:
times under 100 seconds = 1 point penalty per second

101-200 seconds = 2 points penalty per second

201-300 = 3 points penalty per second

and so on...

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#517209 - Sat Mar 20 2010 01:19 PM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: Midget40]
agony Online   content

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Registered: Sat Mar 29 2003
Posts: 11928
Loc: Western Canada
Quote:

I suspect there are very few people on this site who could rack up 100 Expert wins without research.





Ahem.

I'm at 96 right now, and haven't researched any of them. I don't really think I am that unusual - many of our members came to this site precisely *because* we are good at this sort of thing. I'd be up to about 120 if I were a little faster (I can rarely get in at less than 50 seconds) and, again, I don't think that is very unusual. Quite often there are twenty to thirty perfect scores by the end of the game, most of them with the kind of times that show they were not researched.

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#517210 - Sat Mar 20 2010 01:34 PM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: Midget40]
bubblesfun Offline
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Registered: Thu Jan 15 2009
Posts: 654
Loc: New York USA
Quote:

I want to know where these games are! (Seriously I want to play them and have a chance of winning one!)

Everyone I go into has someone already sitting at 15 right in about 50 - 70 seconds.

Googling couldn't help anyone in those cases surely?




I totally agree with you. I don't think I have ever seen people winning in Expert with the numbers people are talking about here (over 200 seconds? Really?). So, since it is not about the win, and therefore not at all about badges, what is the issue with people googling?
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#517211 - Sat Mar 20 2010 01:40 PM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: bubblesfun]
guitargoddess Offline
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Registered: Mon Jul 09 2007
Posts: 35018
Loc: Ottawa Ontario Canada         
It depends on the category... the really specific ones or more 'unpopular' (for lack of a better word) ones are often won with times of 200+ seconds (often meaning most of the times that those categories come up, which they don't all that often, because usually they're the "Cannot be changed" ones. Things like Manga, maybe Fantasy lit, specific bands (like this thread started stemming from the Metallica round... not that obscure of a topic but something that not that many players are going to know very very well)
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#517212 - Sat Mar 20 2010 02:04 PM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: guitargoddess]
bucknallbabe Offline
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Registered: Thu Oct 30 2008
Posts: 136
Loc: Bedfordshire England UK      
Agony - I wasn't trying to imply that 100 wins without googling couldn't be done but that there are few players who could do it - so far only about 30 people have the Jack of All Trades badge in almost a year of the Expert Game which to my mind shows that it's really difficult whether you research or not. I know there are players who can do it but I have to disagree with you - I do think you are unusual if you have managed to get 96 Expert wins without googling - the 96 wins on its own is unusual. I can accept that all the people who already have the badge also did it without googling - but I would still argue, in the context of this site, 30 people is very few.

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#517213 - Sat Mar 20 2010 03:37 PM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: bucknallbabe]
glendathecat Offline
Explorer

Registered: Wed Apr 02 2008
Posts: 88
Loc: Kent UK
Can I just point out something glaringly obvious but not mentioned so far, as far as I can see.

This has been made out to be an issue of knowledge v. googling. For most of us that have been on this site a long time, we get high scores not because we have specialist knowledge but because we have seen the SPECIFIC questions before and our brains have memorised them. Let's not kid ourselves that somehow we are purists cos we ain't.

I would also reiterate the point that, for some of us, simply reading questions we haven't seen before can take a long time. I can often take 120-150 seconds on a 15 question set if the questions are long and unfamiliar.

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#517214 - Sat Mar 20 2010 06:08 PM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: glendathecat]
GhurkaSam Offline
Participant

Registered: Tue Nov 10 2009
Posts: 19
This could have turned out to be a whole lot bigger can of worms than it did. As for googling, I think it has no place in the timed games. In the untimed I say google away. My congratulations to those with 100 or more Expert wins. I got up to 68 and have hit a brick wall. I don't really care to be lumped into the Champion category in games I've previously won, but accept that decision. Those games have really become a speed demon contest, and my speed is moderate at best. Fortunately in three of the more obscure and less played topics I won, I've been able to win again as a Champion. Lastly, this place is going to attract intelligent competitive people. If there is way to game the system, maybe not many, but some will find a way. I don't know how you can prevent that sort of thing all the time. As for me, I don't possess the kind of technical acumen to pull that off. I have to be satisified with my scores, the good, the bad and the ugly.

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#517215 - Sat Mar 20 2010 06:09 PM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: glendathecat]
mehaul Offline
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Registered: Wed Feb 03 2010
Posts: 5396
Loc: Florida USA
There is another undiscussed aspect to the subject and that is people who learn the quiz subject ahead of time at the beginning of the hour, go to two or three sources of knowledge, "bone up" on the topic and then take the test with the reference sources still readily available toward the end of the hour (suggesting that penalty systems should vary also through the hour).
This defines two different types of test taker populations: the "hit me with your best shot" type and the "let me get ready" type.
Time penalties do not effect the googler in this regard more than they penalize a 'cold' taker of the test who may search out one or two responses.
Also to be remembered is that, along these lines, the Who's the Expert Game advertises 6 hours/Subjects ahead of time in the title area 'Upcoming'.


Edited by mehaul (Sat Mar 20 2010 09:05 PM)
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#517216 - Sat Mar 20 2010 09:09 PM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: mehaul]
lesley153 Offline
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Registered: Fri Sep 07 2007
Posts: 725
Loc: Bedford England UK           
Quote:

penalty systems should vary also through the hour




So, while you want to penalise people who prepare for the quizzes, you would also like to penalise anyone who plays towards the end of the hour?

There is already a minimal penalty for late players in that ties go to the first person who plays. Sorry but I think any more than that is undesirable and unworkable.

Why does anything need to change? People google - so what? is it really worth getting hot under the collar about it?

People do prepare for tests of knowledge and memory - why is that now heinous? When my son comes to take his finals, perhaps I should tell him that he'll get a better degree and more respect if he doesn't do any revision.

As Glendathecat said, people who have been here longer have seen more quizzes, and will remember more answers. Of course that will give them an unfair advantage. Difficult one. How do you handicap them? I know! Don't let anyone play on FT for more than six months. Sorted!
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#517217 - Sat Mar 20 2010 10:59 PM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: lesley153]
mehaul Offline
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Registered: Wed Feb 03 2010
Posts: 5396
Loc: Florida USA
lesley, my position is that no time penalties should exist at all. If you get 9/10 in 35s and I get 9/10 in 150s you win, but why should my reward be reduced? You get the ten points either way while mine goes from 8 points down to 4! (Even though I knew the information just as well as you did)

If there are to be penalties, my point about shifting penalty structure through the hour is based on that issue that 6 hours notice is given on a topic. If you aren't ready to submit your response in the first five minutes and have to take that additional hour to look things up, penalty. If you've prepared and need to look up an answer the penalty should be minimal because you did prepare. If you enter at the end of the hour and start looking things up, it indicates you haven't prepared. At the end of the hour if you only take a minimal amount of time, there is no penalty. And for those of us who take a little longer to respond, if we knew to take the test at the beginning of the hour, it could reduce the amount of penalization.

I do not recall the specifics of the discussion but I think when Terry announced the lead time for the quiz topics, it was so that researchers could go look things up ahead of time. And now, because they are doing the look up during the quiz and hour, and getting times like some of the ability limited of us, they are bringing penalties to our enjoyment.
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#517218 - Sun Mar 21 2010 01:38 AM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: mehaul]
lesley153 Offline
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Registered: Fri Sep 07 2007
Posts: 725
Loc: Bedford England UK           
Quote:

no time penalties should exist at all



I see! Interesting point, and I failed to spot the difference between your idea and the original post. I thought the discussion was just about an increasing scale of time penalties.

The timed games have always had a simple built-in time penalty - lose a point for every second you take to answer. I don't see the need for graduated penalties in the timed games, and it doesn't make sense to me to have extra penalties in some of the timed games but not all of them.

It doesn't make sense to abolish them either, because then you would be losing an element which makes these contests more attractive to the more competitive players. The only solution I can think of is for people to play what they want and what they can manage.

I would also like to see players doing what's right for them, and not trying to control the behaviour of everyone else on the site. Either you have controlled quizzing conditions, or you have open online quizzing. You can't have both.

Granted it can be irritating if you think you're putting in more effort or whatever than someone else, but nobody's going to die if lesser mortals don't match up to our immaculate standards. And that's the reason for my impatient explosion in my last post - sorry!

Disclaimer: it's 7.30am, I've been in bed for three hours, wide awake, and given up trying to sleep. If what I've written here doesn't make sense, please tell me. I shall try to do better. [yawn]
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#517219 - Sun Mar 21 2010 01:43 AM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: mehaul]
Lones78 Offline
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Registered: Mon Apr 27 2009
Posts: 1414
Loc: Forrestfield Western Australia
So, if I get home from work at (say) 5.30pm and jump straight on the computer to play a quiz before the expert category ticks over (5.45pm) you want to penalise me? I think THAT is unfair

Just because I choose to play late in the hour doesn't mean I have spent the last 6 hours 'researching' the topic.

Sorry, I love FT but I have a life.
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#517220 - Sun Mar 21 2010 03:00 AM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: Lones78]
mehaul Offline
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Registered: Wed Feb 03 2010
Posts: 5396
Loc: Florida USA
First ten minutes of the hour - no time penalty.
Minutes 11 through thirty - 1/3 the maximum time penalty structure.
Minutes 31 through fifty - 2/3 the maximum time penalty structure,
Minutes 51 through sixty - maximum time penalty structure.


Edited by mehaul (Sun Mar 21 2010 11:13 AM)
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#517221 - Sun Mar 21 2010 03:41 AM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: mehaul]
Snowman Offline
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Posts: 1603
Loc: London England UK            
I don't understand. Why should the time you play change your time penalties? Seems illogical to me.
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#517222 - Sun Mar 21 2010 05:23 AM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: Snowman]
looney_tunes Offline
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Registered: Tue Jan 20 2009
Posts: 3240
Loc: Briar Hill Victoria Australia 
I'm with Lones78 - I often hop onto Funtrivia on my way to a secure site (our work internet connection won't go straight to an https site) and play a quick quiz of the hour. And now I have to make sure it's one of the ones at the start of its hour or I'll be penalized? THAT doesn't seem fair.

As someone who still hasn't worked out how some amazing times are achieved (it takes me about 45 seconds just to page down and randomly click an answer, without any reading or thought, for a 15-question quiz, yet I often see times under 20 seconds!), i have just leaned to ignore it and pit myself against my own previous standards. And I will probably never win a Jack of All Trades Badge (my current total is 3 wins), but I can enjoy playing the game.
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#517223 - Sun Mar 21 2010 08:23 AM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: Snowman]
bubblesfun Offline
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Registered: Thu Jan 15 2009
Posts: 654
Loc: New York USA
Quote:

I don't understand. Why should the time you play change your time penalties? Seems illogical to me.




It seems illogical to me as well. Just as some of the more stringent time penalties within the game seem illogical to many of us as well.

I think the point is, there are many different ways to massage the games to your benefit. Some may choose to take the quizzes first before playing the time game, some may google a few answers, some may google all of the answers and some may just be slower players. And, of course, there is a built in enormous advantage for all those that have been playing for many years and know the answers as soon as they see the first word of the question.

It seems that some don;t understand why people would be up in arms about some of these variables, yet not all of them -- and why some are so strongly penalized while others are not.
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#517224 - Sun Mar 21 2010 11:39 AM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: bubblesfun]
mehaul Offline
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Registered: Wed Feb 03 2010
Posts: 5396
Loc: Florida USA
Initial Question: Can something be done about people googling to get high scores in the expert game.

Problem example: Games of obscure topics where "smart" players without resource assist are being beaten by players with high time recorded responses getting all the answers correct, suggesting that the time penalty isn't great enough.

Suggested correction: increase the time penalty structure.

My suggestions to counter raising the time penalty structure:
1) Do away with time penalties as they seem to fail at what they were intended to accomplish;
2) Vary the impact of the penalty through the hour(This comes from consideration that fair topic schedule lead time is already given in the Expert game; that some are still googling during the game [for more than one question]; a suggestion to go timed/untimed for the game; consideration for the 'information gathering challenged' of us to play on a level field without penalty).

These are observations of the problem and suggested methods to deal with it. I'm not trying to be illogical. It is called brainstorming and, in a brainstorming session, no idea is discarded until it has been proven to be non-germane to the issue.


Edited by mehaul (Sun Mar 21 2010 04:09 PM)
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#517225 - Sun Mar 21 2010 11:51 AM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: mehaul]
agony Online   content

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Registered: Sat Mar 29 2003
Posts: 11928
Loc: Western Canada
Terry has made it pretty clear that he doesn't really see a problem here, and is unlikely to go to any great lengths to correct it. There has never been any intention to make sure all games suit all players. A rough stab at fairness, and an attempt to make sure there is something to do onsite for every level of ability, is about the best we can do.

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#517226 - Sun Mar 21 2010 02:48 PM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: agony]
lesley153 Offline
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Posts: 725
Loc: Bedford England UK           
Thank goodness! I think the balance of activities is perfectly acceptable as it is. You can't remove a disadvantage for one group without removing an advantage for another group, and you really can't please everyone all the time.

The only new rule I'd like to see is one to relax and enjoy what you do, without having apoplexy about what other people may or may not be doing.
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I appreciate people who are civil, whether they mean it or not. I think: Be civil. Do not cherish your opinion over my feelings. There's a vanity to candor that isn't really worth it. Be kind. ~ Richard Greenberg

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#517227 - Tue Mar 23 2010 03:00 AM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: lesley153]
looney_tunes Offline
Multiloquent

Registered: Tue Jan 20 2009
Posts: 3240
Loc: Briar Hill Victoria Australia 
Hear, hear! I have accepted the fact that there are some games I will never win (I simply cannot work out how people complete some quizzes in less time than it takes me to simply scroll down and submit, without even making a blind guess) and don't play them often. As it takes me nearly two hours every evening to play the games I want, take the newest quizzes that look interesting, check out the Authors Chat Lounge and my team message boards, then cruise past Ask FunTrivia to see if anything researchable is in view, I can just ignore them with no difficulty!
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(Editor in Humanities, Literature and Books For Children)
That's all, folks!

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