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#517198 - Fri Mar 19 2010 12:39 PM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: WesleyCrusher]
mehaul Offline
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Registered: Wed Feb 03 2010
Posts: 5154
Loc: Florida USA
Thank you Wesley for the attempt to more specifically spell out the idea I raised of a browser signature. It would be nice if we could attach a cheat monitor to every player like a wii controller. None of it's going to happen though. We slow players are going to have to suffer penalties because a few smart players sometimes cannot accept not being the best and take advantage of the situation.
So why impose penalties at all? Prison is arguably one of the most knowledgable players on the site and he admitted to googling. And for him to have the privilege of doing that once every twenty games (or less), I get penalized in almost all I play.
The stand that there are so many games not timed to play is like saying you can play around out here but only the real players get into the back room. I've said I know I'm not going to win. I accept that. Is the reason to play only to win? Or, is learning and fun part of the mix? Get rid of time penalties. they were a solution to a problem that can't be beat.


Edited by mehaul (Fri Mar 19 2010 01:26 PM)
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#517199 - Fri Mar 19 2010 03:15 PM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: Terry]
whee Offline
Forum Adept

Registered: Mon Aug 20 2007
Posts: 167
Loc: Castle Rock Colorado USA   
That sounds good. I can bing search real fast with the best of them, but it's much more fun when it's about the knowledge.

Worth noting that when playing from a mobile device which I do a lot, 140-150 seconds, not 120 is really the sweet spot. Maybe consider that slightly higher number, depending on what removing the novel-length questions does.

Btw - for all the tech solutions - just won't work. Can always find a way around it if you work hard enough at it. Besides, I like being able to get badges from a mobile device - only way I can compete in endurance like GC or the monthly badges.


Edited by whee (Fri Mar 19 2010 03:18 PM)

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#517200 - Fri Mar 19 2010 04:00 PM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: whee]
Prison Offline
Explorer

Registered: Thu Dec 25 2008
Posts: 63
Loc: Florida USA
Oops - I went to bed right before Terry posted his request of testing out the time limits.

If that offer still stands, I could give it a try.


Edited by Prison (Fri Mar 19 2010 04:01 PM)

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#517201 - Fri Mar 19 2010 04:42 PM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: Prison]
WesleyCrusher Offline

Administrator

Registered: Thu Sep 04 2008
Posts: 3714
Loc: Germany
Terry - was it intentional to have the time penalties jump at certain places? As it looks right now, you seem to have:

Up to 130 seconds: time in seconds.
131 to 200 seconds: (2x time in secs) minus 120
201 and above: (3x time in secs) minus 240

(There's another jump somewhere higher up to explain how 367 can already hit the max-out)

This makes the 131st second be a 12-point jump and the 201st even one of 83 pts(!), while all others are just 1 to 3.

Shouldn't this be something like:

Up to 130 seconds: time in seconds.
131 to 200 seconds: 130 + 3 for every second beyond 130 (secs x3 - 260)
201 and above: 340 + 5 for every second beyond 200 (secs x5 - 660)

Wes
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#517202 - Fri Mar 19 2010 09:26 PM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: WesleyCrusher]
mehaul Offline
Forum Champion

Registered: Wed Feb 03 2010
Posts: 5154
Loc: Florida USA
If you want a research/reward game wouldn't that type of effort be a 'not to be submitted until' a minimum amount of time had passed? Things you definitely spent time looking up whatever the lookup vehicle is (be it here, google, bing, wikipedia or kindle with an encyclopedia loaded on it) Set it up so all responses have to be submitted in two to three hundred seconds, none earlier, none later and actual amount of the time irrelevant. make them twenty five questions games and run a cummulative % correct value to determine a top ranking once a day/week/month.
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#517203 - Sat Mar 20 2010 08:25 AM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: mehaul]
1cyprus Offline
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Registered: Thu Apr 27 2006
Posts: 144
Loc: Gloucestershire England UK   
Isn't the real point, that this is a quiz site.That means a set of questions to test what YOU know, not what you can look up on google or whatever search engine?

So, with punative penalties for time, the quicker knowledgable players will still win over slower players.However, those who rely on a search engine will fare much worse, thus allowing slower knowledgable players to beat them!

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#517204 - Sat Mar 20 2010 08:47 AM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: 1cyprus]
WesleyCrusher Offline

Administrator

Registered: Thu Sep 04 2008
Posts: 3714
Loc: Germany
cyprus, unfortunately it doesn't work that way. Unless time penalties are so harsh to completely disqualify everyone but the fastest 25% of players, smart and fast folks will always have the time to google a few answers and that's all it takes to convert a good-but-not-quite-there 12 into a winning 15.

And yes, after a lot of thinking, I'd also advocate an untimed mode where you can just play the game for FT points, as if it were a quiz. Probably just the same 15 points per correct - if you want to use the game to learn by research instead of randomly clicking and then reading the answer screen, why not have the option, without affecting anyone's standing. It's definitely a lot more appealing to me than only having the choice between random clicks and not playing at all. Especially for the thematic sets: Expert, Pot of Gold and World Quiz, this could be a quite viable and fun way of getting better - just like the 195 day bus ride teaches us something new about a country every day.


Edited by WesleyCrusher (Sat Mar 20 2010 08:49 AM)
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#517205 - Sat Mar 20 2010 11:26 AM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: WesleyCrusher]
1cyprus Offline
Forum Adept

Registered: Thu Apr 27 2006
Posts: 144
Loc: Gloucestershire England UK   
I disagree Wesley, we aren't talking someone who needs to look two or three answers up.The problem is on many games players are taking 250-500 secs and still thriving.
That isn't looking up the odd answer, thats looking up many, those players shouldn't thrive.

The main problem is on more obscure subjects and someone who knows 12/15 has a chance of winning anyway if they're quick.

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#517206 - Sat Mar 20 2010 11:57 AM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: 1cyprus]
bucknallbabe Offline
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Registered: Thu Oct 30 2008
Posts: 136
Loc: Bedfordshire England UK      
I wonder if the fact there's a Jack of All Trades Badge which requires 100 Expert wins actually encourages "googling". I suspect there are very few people on this site who could rack up 100 Expert wins without research. 20 for the Jack of Many Trades, yes, as there may well be 20 related topics, but not 100. And if you're aiming for that Badge, you'll do what it takes - including looking things up.

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#517207 - Sat Mar 20 2010 01:00 PM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: bucknallbabe]
Midget40 Offline
Forum Champion

Registered: Mon Oct 27 2008
Posts: 5052
Loc: Perth Western Australia       
I want to know where these games are! (Seriously I want to play them and have a chance of winning one!)

Everyone I go into has someone already sitting at 15 right in about 50 - 70 seconds.

Googling couldn't help anyone in those cases surely?

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#517208 - Sat Mar 20 2010 01:13 PM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: Midget40]
davegrilla Offline
Forum Adept

Registered: Mon Jun 29 2009
Posts: 101
Loc: Connecticut USA
Perhaps using a gradually increasing time penalty would be satisfactory.
For example:
times under 100 seconds = 1 point penalty per second

101-200 seconds = 2 points penalty per second

201-300 = 3 points penalty per second

and so on...

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#517209 - Sat Mar 20 2010 01:19 PM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: Midget40]
agony Offline

Administrator

Registered: Sat Mar 29 2003
Posts: 11584
Loc: Western Canada
Quote:

I suspect there are very few people on this site who could rack up 100 Expert wins without research.





Ahem.

I'm at 96 right now, and haven't researched any of them. I don't really think I am that unusual - many of our members came to this site precisely *because* we are good at this sort of thing. I'd be up to about 120 if I were a little faster (I can rarely get in at less than 50 seconds) and, again, I don't think that is very unusual. Quite often there are twenty to thirty perfect scores by the end of the game, most of them with the kind of times that show they were not researched.

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#517210 - Sat Mar 20 2010 01:34 PM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: Midget40]
bubblesfun Offline
Mainstay

Registered: Thu Jan 15 2009
Posts: 650
Loc: New York USA
Quote:

I want to know where these games are! (Seriously I want to play them and have a chance of winning one!)

Everyone I go into has someone already sitting at 15 right in about 50 - 70 seconds.

Googling couldn't help anyone in those cases surely?




I totally agree with you. I don't think I have ever seen people winning in Expert with the numbers people are talking about here (over 200 seconds? Really?). So, since it is not about the win, and therefore not at all about badges, what is the issue with people googling?
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#517211 - Sat Mar 20 2010 01:40 PM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: bubblesfun]
guitargoddess Offline


Registered: Mon Jul 09 2007
Posts: 33943
Loc: Ottawa Ontario Canada         
It depends on the category... the really specific ones or more 'unpopular' (for lack of a better word) ones are often won with times of 200+ seconds (often meaning most of the times that those categories come up, which they don't all that often, because usually they're the "Cannot be changed" ones. Things like Manga, maybe Fantasy lit, specific bands (like this thread started stemming from the Metallica round... not that obscure of a topic but something that not that many players are going to know very very well)
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#517212 - Sat Mar 20 2010 02:04 PM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: guitargoddess]
bucknallbabe Offline
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Registered: Thu Oct 30 2008
Posts: 136
Loc: Bedfordshire England UK      
Agony - I wasn't trying to imply that 100 wins without googling couldn't be done but that there are few players who could do it - so far only about 30 people have the Jack of All Trades badge in almost a year of the Expert Game which to my mind shows that it's really difficult whether you research or not. I know there are players who can do it but I have to disagree with you - I do think you are unusual if you have managed to get 96 Expert wins without googling - the 96 wins on its own is unusual. I can accept that all the people who already have the badge also did it without googling - but I would still argue, in the context of this site, 30 people is very few.

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#517213 - Sat Mar 20 2010 03:37 PM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: bucknallbabe]
glendathecat Offline
Explorer

Registered: Wed Apr 02 2008
Posts: 82
Loc: Kent UK
Can I just point out something glaringly obvious but not mentioned so far, as far as I can see.

This has been made out to be an issue of knowledge v. googling. For most of us that have been on this site a long time, we get high scores not because we have specialist knowledge but because we have seen the SPECIFIC questions before and our brains have memorised them. Let's not kid ourselves that somehow we are purists cos we ain't.

I would also reiterate the point that, for some of us, simply reading questions we haven't seen before can take a long time. I can often take 120-150 seconds on a 15 question set if the questions are long and unfamiliar.

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#517214 - Sat Mar 20 2010 06:08 PM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: glendathecat]
GhurkaSam Offline
Participant

Registered: Tue Nov 10 2009
Posts: 19
This could have turned out to be a whole lot bigger can of worms than it did. As for googling, I think it has no place in the timed games. In the untimed I say google away. My congratulations to those with 100 or more Expert wins. I got up to 68 and have hit a brick wall. I don't really care to be lumped into the Champion category in games I've previously won, but accept that decision. Those games have really become a speed demon contest, and my speed is moderate at best. Fortunately in three of the more obscure and less played topics I won, I've been able to win again as a Champion. Lastly, this place is going to attract intelligent competitive people. If there is way to game the system, maybe not many, but some will find a way. I don't know how you can prevent that sort of thing all the time. As for me, I don't possess the kind of technical acumen to pull that off. I have to be satisified with my scores, the good, the bad and the ugly.

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#517215 - Sat Mar 20 2010 06:09 PM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: glendathecat]
mehaul Offline
Forum Champion

Registered: Wed Feb 03 2010
Posts: 5154
Loc: Florida USA
There is another undiscussed aspect to the subject and that is people who learn the quiz subject ahead of time at the beginning of the hour, go to two or three sources of knowledge, "bone up" on the topic and then take the test with the reference sources still readily available toward the end of the hour (suggesting that penalty systems should vary also through the hour).
This defines two different types of test taker populations: the "hit me with your best shot" type and the "let me get ready" type.
Time penalties do not effect the googler in this regard more than they penalize a 'cold' taker of the test who may search out one or two responses.
Also to be remembered is that, along these lines, the Who's the Expert Game advertises 6 hours/Subjects ahead of time in the title area 'Upcoming'.


Edited by mehaul (Sat Mar 20 2010 09:05 PM)
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#517216 - Sat Mar 20 2010 09:09 PM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: mehaul]
lesley153 Offline
Mainstay

Registered: Fri Sep 07 2007
Posts: 724
Loc: Bedford England UK           
Quote:

penalty systems should vary also through the hour




So, while you want to penalise people who prepare for the quizzes, you would also like to penalise anyone who plays towards the end of the hour?

There is already a minimal penalty for late players in that ties go to the first person who plays. Sorry but I think any more than that is undesirable and unworkable.

Why does anything need to change? People google - so what? is it really worth getting hot under the collar about it?

People do prepare for tests of knowledge and memory - why is that now heinous? When my son comes to take his finals, perhaps I should tell him that he'll get a better degree and more respect if he doesn't do any revision.

As Glendathecat said, people who have been here longer have seen more quizzes, and will remember more answers. Of course that will give them an unfair advantage. Difficult one. How do you handicap them? I know! Don't let anyone play on FT for more than six months. Sorted!
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#517217 - Sat Mar 20 2010 10:59 PM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: lesley153]
mehaul Offline
Forum Champion

Registered: Wed Feb 03 2010
Posts: 5154
Loc: Florida USA
lesley, my position is that no time penalties should exist at all. If you get 9/10 in 35s and I get 9/10 in 150s you win, but why should my reward be reduced? You get the ten points either way while mine goes from 8 points down to 4! (Even though I knew the information just as well as you did)

If there are to be penalties, my point about shifting penalty structure through the hour is based on that issue that 6 hours notice is given on a topic. If you aren't ready to submit your response in the first five minutes and have to take that additional hour to look things up, penalty. If you've prepared and need to look up an answer the penalty should be minimal because you did prepare. If you enter at the end of the hour and start looking things up, it indicates you haven't prepared. At the end of the hour if you only take a minimal amount of time, there is no penalty. And for those of us who take a little longer to respond, if we knew to take the test at the beginning of the hour, it could reduce the amount of penalization.

I do not recall the specifics of the discussion but I think when Terry announced the lead time for the quiz topics, it was so that researchers could go look things up ahead of time. And now, because they are doing the look up during the quiz and hour, and getting times like some of the ability limited of us, they are bringing penalties to our enjoyment.
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#517218 - Sun Mar 21 2010 01:38 AM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: mehaul]
lesley153 Offline
Mainstay

Registered: Fri Sep 07 2007
Posts: 724
Loc: Bedford England UK           
Quote:

no time penalties should exist at all



I see! Interesting point, and I failed to spot the difference between your idea and the original post. I thought the discussion was just about an increasing scale of time penalties.

The timed games have always had a simple built-in time penalty - lose a point for every second you take to answer. I don't see the need for graduated penalties in the timed games, and it doesn't make sense to me to have extra penalties in some of the timed games but not all of them.

It doesn't make sense to abolish them either, because then you would be losing an element which makes these contests more attractive to the more competitive players. The only solution I can think of is for people to play what they want and what they can manage.

I would also like to see players doing what's right for them, and not trying to control the behaviour of everyone else on the site. Either you have controlled quizzing conditions, or you have open online quizzing. You can't have both.

Granted it can be irritating if you think you're putting in more effort or whatever than someone else, but nobody's going to die if lesser mortals don't match up to our immaculate standards. And that's the reason for my impatient explosion in my last post - sorry!

Disclaimer: it's 7.30am, I've been in bed for three hours, wide awake, and given up trying to sleep. If what I've written here doesn't make sense, please tell me. I shall try to do better. [yawn]
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#517219 - Sun Mar 21 2010 01:43 AM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: mehaul]
Lones78 Offline
Prolific

Registered: Mon Apr 27 2009
Posts: 1401
Loc: Forrestfield Western Australia
So, if I get home from work at (say) 5.30pm and jump straight on the computer to play a quiz before the expert category ticks over (5.45pm) you want to penalise me? I think THAT is unfair

Just because I choose to play late in the hour doesn't mean I have spent the last 6 hours 'researching' the topic.

Sorry, I love FT but I have a life.
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#517220 - Sun Mar 21 2010 03:00 AM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: Lones78]
mehaul Offline
Forum Champion

Registered: Wed Feb 03 2010
Posts: 5154
Loc: Florida USA
First ten minutes of the hour - no time penalty.
Minutes 11 through thirty - 1/3 the maximum time penalty structure.
Minutes 31 through fifty - 2/3 the maximum time penalty structure,
Minutes 51 through sixty - maximum time penalty structure.


Edited by mehaul (Sun Mar 21 2010 11:13 AM)
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#517221 - Sun Mar 21 2010 03:41 AM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: mehaul]
Snowman Offline
Prolific

Registered: Wed Oct 31 2007
Posts: 1577
Loc: London England UK            
I don't understand. Why should the time you play change your time penalties? Seems illogical to me.
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#517222 - Sun Mar 21 2010 05:23 AM Re: Expert Googlers [Re: Snowman]
looney_tunes Offline
Multiloquent

Registered: Tue Jan 20 2009
Posts: 2968
Loc: Briar Hill Victoria Australia 
I'm with Lones78 - I often hop onto Funtrivia on my way to a secure site (our work internet connection won't go straight to an https site) and play a quick quiz of the hour. And now I have to make sure it's one of the ones at the start of its hour or I'll be penalized? THAT doesn't seem fair.

As someone who still hasn't worked out how some amazing times are achieved (it takes me about 45 seconds just to page down and randomly click an answer, without any reading or thought, for a 15-question quiz, yet I often see times under 20 seconds!), i have just leaned to ignore it and pit myself against my own previous standards. And I will probably never win a Jack of All Trades Badge (my current total is 3 wins), but I can enjoy playing the game.
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