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#653575 - Tue Sep 13 2011 10:18 PM Re: Mind Melt - Content Issues [Re: oldbookshop]
mehaul Offline
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Registered: Wed Feb 03 2010
Posts: 4845
Loc: Florida USA
The grownup side of the equation brings up a few hits, but from a year ago. Maybe Deja-vu hit me all over again? Perhaps it was from a single instance out of Word Wizard or, someone here posted in paragraph form and had qoute or apostrophe marks around the words so the search misreads them.

But scanning back I found the use of 'use up = 'use up' on March 12 here, so is is is again!

Follow up on 'Bingle': No word back from the MLB Departmant who generated the lingo list. That's from 6/24 so it's almost 3 months and the end of season with no reply other than they're looking into it/ forwarding it to the need to knows" I last got as input.
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"...Tomorrow's come a long way to help you."
Tim Davis 'Your Saving Grace' Steve Miller Band (1969)
"...Yesterday's at least a mile back."
Dale Peters 'Dreaming in the Country' James Gang (1971)

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#653649 - Wed Sep 14 2011 07:59 AM Re: Mind Melt - Content Issues [Re: JanIQ]
Buddy1 Online   content
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Registered: Wed Oct 15 2008
Posts: 664
Loc: Arkansas USA
For "Definitions", I had

gaumless is British informal

Shouldn't there be an actual definition rather than just describing it as a British informal term?

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#653866 - Wed Sep 14 2011 05:22 PM Re: Mind Melt - Content Issues [Re: Buddy1]
mehaul Offline
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Registered: Wed Feb 03 2010
Posts: 4845
Loc: Florida USA
From Wiktionary-
Gaumless: alternate spelling for gormless

From Wiktionary-
Gormless: 1.(chiefly UK, of a person) Lacking intelligence, sense or discernment, often implying lack of capacity of will to remedy the condition.

From mehaul-
Apropos
_________________________
"...Tomorrow's come a long way to help you."
Tim Davis 'Your Saving Grace' Steve Miller Band (1969)
"...Yesterday's at least a mile back."
Dale Peters 'Dreaming in the Country' James Gang (1971)

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#654371 - Fri Sep 16 2011 06:02 PM Re: Mind Melt - Content Issues [Re: mehaul]
ssabreman Offline
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Registered: Wed Nov 03 2010
Posts: 1581
Loc: K-W Ontario Canada
Come on!! Not in the same set.

probenecid is related to medicinal drug

You said: medicament

probenecid means "drug that reduces the level of uric acid in the blood"
medicinal drug means "(medicine) something that treats or prevents or alleviates the symptoms of disease"

anticonvulsant drug is related to medicament

You said: medicinal drug

anticonvulsant drug means "a drug used to treat or prevent convulsions (as in epilepsy)"
medicament means "(medicine) something that treats or prevents or alleviates the symptoms of disease"

medicinal drug and medicament are exactly the same. Why the crap shoot?

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#654387 - Fri Sep 16 2011 09:24 PM Re: Mind Melt - Content Issues [Re: ssabreman]
Jakeroo Offline
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Registered: Sat Aug 30 2008
Posts: 1776
Loc: Alberta Canada
I didn't get that set, but I'd have picked medicament for the treatment that didn't specify a particular disease/ailment, as I see it as a "general" term. Herbal medicines/practices are often dubbed as medicaments, because most of them aren't accepted by the medical community as a valid/tested/FDA-approved medical DRUG. Things like poultices, plaster, tape, splints, epsom salt baths etc are also considered medicaments because they alleviate certain symptoms and are certainly related to medical practices, but are definitely not "drugs". "Probenecid" is a manufactured drug name (the generic one actually, for treating gout). I worked for a pharmaceutical company for a few years and in that business, I'm sorry, but medicinal drug and medicament are NOT exactly the same.

(edited to add the word "also")


Edited by Jakeroo (Fri Sep 16 2011 10:02 PM)
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#654447 - Sat Sep 17 2011 08:47 AM Re: Mind Melt - Content Issues [Re: Jakeroo]
ssabreman Offline
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Registered: Wed Nov 03 2010
Posts: 1581
Loc: K-W Ontario Canada
What? Thanks for the health lesson but if you go back and read the definitions that were given, they are EXACTLY the same. So which one do you pick? Do you pick
"(medicine) something that treats or prevents or alleviates the symptoms of disease"
or
"(medicine) something that treats or prevents or alleviates the symptoms of disease"

I just happened to pick the WRONG "(medicine) something that treats or prevents or alleviates the symptoms of disease".



Edited by ssabreman (Sat Sep 17 2011 08:49 AM)

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#654542 - Sat Sep 17 2011 02:59 PM Re: Mind Melt - Content Issues [Re: ssabreman]
looney_tunes Offline
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Registered: Tue Jan 20 2009
Posts: 2818
Loc: Briar Hill Victoria Australia 
The definitions that are given are only a starting point in explaining the subtleties of the word's usage. Cat and dog could both be 'defined' as 'domesticated carnivorous mammal'; but if you were matching them with 'a spiteful woman' and 'a person regarded as contemptible', which one goes where is pretty clear. The medicine issue is exactly the same, but more subtle.
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#654548 - Sat Sep 17 2011 03:33 PM Re: Mind Melt - Content Issues [Re: looney_tunes]
reeshy Offline
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Registered: Tue Aug 11 2009
Posts: 741
Loc: Glasgow Scotland UK           
I agree - the difference is very subtle, but there nonetheless. It would be a different story perhaps if you were already given the exactly similar definitions in the game before matching, but you aren't. Sometimes, the wacky pairs like that are what makes the Mind Melt game frustrating, but, at the same time, fun and more challenging.
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#654565 - Sat Sep 17 2011 05:57 PM Re: Mind Melt - Content Issues [Re: reeshy]
ssabreman Offline
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Registered: Wed Nov 03 2010
Posts: 1581
Loc: K-W Ontario Canada
me·dic·a·ment n. An agent that promotes recovery from injury or ailment; a medicine. medicament. a medicinal agent - (a medicinal drug perhaps?)
medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com

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#654567 - Sat Sep 17 2011 06:18 PM Re: Mind Melt - Content Issues [Re: ssabreman]
bubblesfun Offline
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Registered: Thu Jan 15 2009
Posts: 643
Loc: New York USA
Originally Posted By: ssabreman
What? Thanks for the health lesson but if you go back and read the definitions that were given, they are EXACTLY the same. So which one do you pick? Do you pick
"(medicine) something that treats or prevents or alleviates the symptoms of disease"
or
"(medicine) something that treats or prevents or alleviates the symptoms of disease"

I just happened to pick the WRONG "(medicine) something that treats or prevents or alleviates the symptoms of disease".



I am with you 100 percent. And none of the explanations make sense to me. Maybe if it had said an anticonvulsant "poultice, plaster, tape, splint" the explanations make sense. But, it said an anticonvulsant DRUG, which is pretty specifically a medication.
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#654571 - Sat Sep 17 2011 06:48 PM Re: Mind Melt - Content Issues [Re: bubblesfun]
ssabreman Offline
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Registered: Wed Nov 03 2010
Posts: 1581
Loc: K-W Ontario Canada
Thanks, Alex.
It seems the two colleagues want every advantage of clarity in the Who Am I game, but want things as vague and subtle as can be in the MM? Seems inconsistent to me. This is worlds apart from the dog/cat analogy.

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#654621 - Sun Sep 18 2011 04:16 AM Re: Mind Melt - Content Issues [Re: ssabreman]
Jakeroo Offline
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Registered: Sat Aug 30 2008
Posts: 1776
Loc: Alberta Canada
ssabreman: flattery will get you everywhere lol.
_________________________
As much as I love my friends, I won't jump off a bridge WITH them. Instead, I think it's in our mutual interest for one of us to try to catch the other when they fall.

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#654636 - Sun Sep 18 2011 08:20 AM Re: Mind Melt - Content Issues [Re: Jakeroo]
reeshy Offline
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Registered: Tue Aug 11 2009
Posts: 741
Loc: Glasgow Scotland UK           
Actually, ssabreman, I don't think those things should be in the same set (in your context, there is a confusion), but I was pointing out that there is indeed a subtle difference between the two terms, though I don't know if that's something a layman would notice - Jakeroo has mentioned she has worked in a pharmaceutical company and I've studied pharmacology in my degree, so maybe we're just being pedantic. smile

But yes, the nationality issue in WAI is not quite the same. It's nothing to do with making it any easier, rather it avoids problems if the computer chooses many of the same options for the same question.


Edited by reeshy (Sun Sep 18 2011 09:51 AM)
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#654664 - Sun Sep 18 2011 10:38 AM Re: Mind Melt - Content Issues [Re: reeshy]
mehaul Offline
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Registered: Wed Feb 03 2010
Posts: 4845
Loc: Florida USA
Isn't a medicant an Army ant trained to give battlefield injury treatment? Medicament? oops, sorry.
_________________________
"...Tomorrow's come a long way to help you."
Tim Davis 'Your Saving Grace' Steve Miller Band (1969)
"...Yesterday's at least a mile back."
Dale Peters 'Dreaming in the Country' James Gang (1971)

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#654677 - Sun Sep 18 2011 12:59 PM Re: Mind Melt - Content Issues [Re: mehaul]
ssabreman Offline
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Registered: Wed Nov 03 2010
Posts: 1581
Loc: K-W Ontario Canada
Oh Mike, you need some serious professional help. See your local bartender ASAP.

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#654753 - Sun Sep 18 2011 09:28 PM Re: Mind Melt - Content Issues [Re: ssabreman]
abechstein Offline
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Registered: Sun Apr 19 2009
Posts: 414
Loc: Athens Georgia USA            
Here's another example:

surgical procedure means "a medical procedure involving an incision with instruments"

surgical process means "a medical procedure involving an incision with instruments"

Since the database definitions are the same, how on earth does the game decide what is the "wrong" match? These two probably shouldn't be in the same set.

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#654762 - Sun Sep 18 2011 10:06 PM Re: Mind Melt - Content Issues [Re: abechstein]
looney_tunes Offline
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Registered: Tue Jan 20 2009
Posts: 2818
Loc: Briar Hill Victoria Australia 
The answer would depend on what these were being matched with. My cat and dog analogy above is a very extreme example of how looking at identical definitions doesn't mean the two terms are actually identical. Nobody would be bothered by that, and probably wouldn't even have looked up definitions to see that the two are the same. When the distinction is more subtle, it gets harder. And sometimes it does feel like blind guessing. The matches aren't made within the two lists (of words and definitions), they are clearly made on the basis of more complete definitions and explanations somewhere, with only a brief part of the definition supplied.
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#654922 - Mon Sep 19 2011 03:29 PM Re: Mind Melt - Content Issues [Re: looney_tunes]
abechstein Offline
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Registered: Sun Apr 19 2009
Posts: 414
Loc: Athens Georgia USA            
Originally Posted By: looney_tunes
The matches aren't made within the two lists (of words and definitions), they are clearly made on the basis of more complete definitions and explanations somewhere, with only a brief part of the definition supplied.


Do we know this for sure? If this is the case, don't you think it would be useful to display the entire definition, if for no other reason than to curtail discussions such as these? Also, I find it hard to believe there are two different terms, the definitions of which begin identically, but have some mysterious second phrase which provides the semantic key to the match. I looked (though not intensively) for an online dictionary definition matching the one from the database, just to see if there was a missing section, though without success.

The given terms, by the way, were "sterilization" (I don't remember if it was the British or US spelling) and "major surgery". I did correctly reason that "sterilization" matched the procedure, and "major surgery" matched the process, but when I saw the definitions displayed, it appeared to be much more random.

Edited to include my main point: Regardless, these shouldn't be in the same set.


Edited by abechstein (Mon Sep 19 2011 03:31 PM)

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#654962 - Mon Sep 19 2011 04:22 PM Re: Mind Melt - Content Issues [Re: abechstein]
looney_tunes Offline
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Registered: Tue Jan 20 2009
Posts: 2818
Loc: Briar Hill Victoria Australia 
It's not an issue with using the 'entire definition' in the sense of including another phrase; many words have so many alternative entries that picking any single one of them to define the word limits the amount of the meaning or implication that can be displayed. We can't expect these brief definitions to be exhaustive, and pretty much have to live with their (often unsatisfactory) incompleteness. Whenever I have searched for fuller definitions, I have always been able to satisfy myself that there is a difference between the two terms, however little it seemd apparent to me as I was answering the questions.

In the case of 'sterilization' and 'major surgery' (and here I am not looking back in the thread to see how they were matched in the game), I would clearly match 'sterilization' with 'procedure' and 'major surgery' with 'process' because that is matching the two more precise terms together, and the two less precise terms together. And that sense of precision is exactly the kind of thing that is not made clear by a brief definition.


From http://www.thefreedictionary.com/process I offer this definition that shows the two terms are not identical in use, although they are very similar in meaning and derivation.

A process is a set or series of actions directed to some end or a natural series of changes; a procedure is a series of actions conducted in a certain manner.

It remains a valid point that letting such similar terms be in the same set adds to the difficulty of making the matches. Ideally, the database should be set up so that they would not occur in the same batch, but I have no idea how hard that would be to program. Meanwhile, it's a game that presents a unique set of challenges and available strategies for the site.
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That's all, folks!

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#655000 - Mon Sep 19 2011 08:49 PM Re: Mind Melt - Content Issues [Re: looney_tunes]
abechstein Offline
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Registered: Sun Apr 19 2009
Posts: 414
Loc: Athens Georgia USA            
Originally Posted By: looney_tunes
It's not an issue with using the 'entire definition' in the sense of including another phrase; many words have so many alternative entries that picking any single one of them to define the word limits the amount of the meaning or implication that can be displayed.


If the game is matching words based on alternative definitions, why then are the alternative definitions not displayed? Again, I am not sure that the match process works this way. If only the first alternative definition of a given word or phrase is displayed even when a second (or third or fourth) alternative is used to make the match, then it seems to me that this sort of confusing situation would be way, way more common than it is. Furthermore, I cannot fathom that any dictionary would list the same exact definition, word-for-word, as the primary alternative for both "sterilization" and "major surgery".

Quote:
In the case of 'sterilization' and 'major surgery' (and here I am not looking back in the thread to see how they were matched in the game), I would clearly match 'sterilization' with 'procedure' and 'major surgery' with 'process' because that is matching the two more precise terms together, and the two less precise terms together.


Which, as I said, was exactly my reasoning in making the selection in the first place. However, when the definitions were displayed after submission, it is not clear that this was the rationale behind the match. I know there is a semantic difference between a "process" and a "procedure", but your quoted definitions are not the definitions used in making the match.

I, too, enjoy the unique quirks of Mind Melt. It is by far my favorite of the daily games. However, where I do think there is room for improvement is the elimination (or at least reduction) of situations where the "correct" answer is only determined by (seemingly) random choice.

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#655004 - Mon Sep 19 2011 09:32 PM Re: Mind Melt - Content Issues [Re: abechstein]
looney_tunes Offline
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Registered: Tue Jan 20 2009
Posts: 2818
Loc: Briar Hill Victoria Australia 
I would suggest that the random choice element comes in the selection of what part of the definition is displayed, rather than in the two terms actually being identical. The definitions could do with a lot of improving, but as long as the game relies on whatever existing resource it uses, that's unlikely to happen. It's a bit like those annoying definitions in the Word game that say things like "found in the Great Lakes" - the fact that it was a fish is titally omitted, yet surely must have been there in the original complete definition.

The 'correct' answer is found by knowing the difference in meaning and usage of the terms in the game, and working with that; when the abbreviated definitions supplied do not adequately explain why there is a difference, then the problem is with the definitions, not with the matching.

To repeat what I posted above, in an analogy that is intentionally absurd because nobody would have been confused by the proper match,
{{The definitions that are given are only a starting point in explaining the subtleties of the word's usage. Cat and dog could both be 'defined' as 'domesticated carnivorous mammal'; but if you were matching them with 'a spiteful woman' and 'a person regarded as contemptible', which one goes where is pretty clear. The medicine issue is exactly the same, but more subtle.))

In whatever online dictionary I looked up to get the definitions for my example, the primary definitions of dog and cat are in fact identical. You and I know that dogs and cats are completely different, but the dictionary describes them both in identical terms. When the difference is far less obvious, the definitions supplied do not adequately explain to players how they could have reasoned the match. Then again, in some instances it would take a far more lengthy explanation that would be appropriate for this game to adequately explain the distinctions.
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That's all, folks!

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#655058 - Tue Sep 20 2011 03:56 AM Re: Mind Melt - Content Issues [Re: looney_tunes]
reeshy Offline
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Registered: Tue Aug 11 2009
Posts: 741
Loc: Glasgow Scotland UK           
Often it has to do with connotations as well, and how the word is used in the language, as opposed to what a dictionary will say. This doesn't necessarily apply to the "surgery" question, but is something that can frustrate some people when the dictionary is not giving such information.
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#655063 - Tue Sep 20 2011 05:37 AM Re: Mind Melt - Content Issues [Re: reeshy]
JanIQ Offline
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Registered: Thu Jul 09 2009
Posts: 560
Loc: Antwerp
Belgium
Here is another example where the connotations don't give any indication. On the one hand we have mud slinger and gossipmonger, on the other hand detractor and communicator. Why is the mud slinger related to the communicator and not to the detractor? Mud slinger and gossipmonger are exactly the same...
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#655069 - Tue Sep 20 2011 07:04 AM Re: Mind Melt - Content Issues [Re: JanIQ]
rossian Online   content
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Registered: Sat Jun 10 2006
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Loc: Merseyside UK 
I would have matched gossipmonger with communicator, on the basis that gossip isn't necessarily passing on 'bad' information, whereas mud slinger would match with detractor to my mind. These will crop up sometimes and I have (mostly) learned to live with them.
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#655170 - Tue Sep 20 2011 04:21 PM Re: Mind Melt - Content Issues [Re: rossian]
Jakeroo Offline
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Registered: Sat Aug 30 2008
Posts: 1776
Loc: Alberta Canada
I don't think they're both exactly the same, but I would have chosen the way Rossian would have above - and for the same reasons (even with the "bad" gossip, in some circles it is considered "good" because of the associated media attention) ... which means I'd have gotten it wrong I guess lol. Hope the game was good to you, JanIQ : )
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As much as I love my friends, I won't jump off a bridge WITH them. Instead, I think it's in our mutual interest for one of us to try to catch the other when they fall.

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