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#575662 - Sun Dec 12 2010 01:13 AM Re: Added lev 100 mini-badge: The Centurion Champs [Re: leelee63]
bubblesfun Offline
Mainstay

Registered: Thu Jan 15 2009
Posts: 649
Loc: New York USA
Exactly, Leelee. Live and let live. Let the people play as they want. No argument SHOULD be necessary. Yet some have different rules.
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"We mock what we are to become"

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#575663 - Sun Dec 12 2010 01:26 AM Re: Added lev 100 mini-badge: The Centurion Champs [Re: bubblesfun]
Anton Offline
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Registered: Sat May 03 2008
Posts: 908
Loc: California USA
Originally Posted By: bubblesfun
Exactly, Leelee. Live and let live. Let the people play as they want. No argument SHOULD be necessary. Yet some have different rules.


All I wanted was fair play by everybody here. No open books, no cheat sheets, no search engines while we are in direct competition with each other. But, you know what? You're right. Who am I to dictate how other people play? I'll openly say that I was wrong here, and if Terry wants to give me the boot, that's his right. I'll abide by his decision. I'm sorry Bubbles, and everybody else who read this.

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#575664 - Sun Dec 12 2010 01:34 AM Re: Added lev 100 mini-badge: The Centurion Champs [Re: Anton]
bubblesfun Offline
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Registered: Thu Jan 15 2009
Posts: 649
Loc: New York USA
You should not get the boot, and I appreciate your comments. Again, we all have a different definition of "fair play".
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"We mock what we are to become"

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#575665 - Sun Dec 12 2010 01:34 AM Re: Added lev 100 mini-badge: The Centurion Champs [Re: bubblesfun]
leelee63 Offline
Forum Adept

Registered: Mon May 07 2007
Posts: 113
Loc: Cape Cod Massachusetts USA   
Originally Posted By: bubblesfun
Exactly, Leelee. Live and let live. Let the people play as they want. No argument SHOULD be necessary. Yet some have different rules.


I'm still in awe of the 39 second perfect score while googling two questions. I mean really? How can others compete with that talent? Not to mention the talent of having played so much, you don't even need a question - just the answers. That was more my point.

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#575666 - Sun Dec 12 2010 01:47 AM Re: Added lev 100 mini-badge: The Centurion Champs [Re: leelee63]
cubswin2323 Offline
Mainstay

Registered: Sun Jan 31 2010
Posts: 931
Loc: Omaha, Nebraska
Hopefully, this puts this thing to bed once and for all. Good night everybody.

Peace,

Dave
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-Dave

December 23rd is Festivus. A Festivus for the rest of us! Get the aluminum pole out from the crawl space. A donation has been made in your name to The Human Fund. The Human Fund. Money for people.

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#575671 - Sun Dec 12 2010 02:42 AM Re: Added lev 100 mini-badge: The Centurion Champs [Re: cubswin2323]
looney_tunes Offline
Multiloquent

Registered: Tue Jan 20 2009
Posts: 2957
Loc: Briar Hill Victoria Australia 
I am in awe of 'fast googling' - I cannot read the questions and answers, pick one, scroll to the next question any faster than an average of about 4 seconds a question, coming down to 3 in the Easiest game. Even without taking time to google, I am not competitive for speed! And I bet I have a lot of company.
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That's all, folks!

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#575676 - Sun Dec 12 2010 03:44 AM Re: Added lev 100 mini-badge: The Centurion Champs [Re: looney_tunes]
Terry Offline

Head Honcho

Registered: Wed Dec 31 1969
Posts: 17689
Loc: USA
If I were omnipotent and could prevent it, yes, I would prohibit googling from many of our games. I personally believe that these games should be a challenge of knowledge and memory -- not answer lookup.

That said, it cannot be policed. It is absolutely impossible for us to ever determine whether someone is googling or not, and therefore even debating whether it's right or wrong is completely pointless. I think it's against the spirit of the game, but some people don't.

We must accept that this is something that some people choose to do, and as such create disincentives in games (usually time penalties) to discourage such use.

What I'd like to know is, what precisely do you google when seeking answers to questions?

What % of the time when you google a question do you get the answer from a Funtrivia.com page?

And what % of the time do you find your answer on a site unrelated to FunTrivia?


Edited by Terry (Sun Dec 12 2010 06:08 PM)

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#575697 - Sun Dec 12 2010 07:28 AM Re: Added lev 100 mini-badge: The Centurion Champs [Re: Terry]
dsimpy Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: Sun Jan 24 2010
Posts: 447
Loc: Belfast Ireland
I'm with Bubblesfun on this. I rarely google in Hourly games - I'm not quick enough to make it effective, and I've a good memory anyway - but I'm doing it a bit in FMI at the moment. I think there's a skill - as well as a lot of luck - to fast googling, and I don't really see any value difference between that and someone who's played the questions so many times that they know the answers by rote.

When I do google it's no better than 50:50 whether anything useful will come up in time. I bang in two or three key words, hope that the google page will load without a delay, and THEN hope I can read something helpful from the two-line summary associated with the top couple of pages without having to actually open a page up (which I've no time to do). They're never FunTrivia pages because you'd need to open them up to get any info. Sometimes messing about with google badly backfires and I'm left with a low score and a slow time - ah well!

What I do know is that googling at speed mentally reinforces the answer for the future, so if the objective of quizzing is to learn then actually it's a pretty effective method.

If I could work out a method for googling all 15 questions for Obscurity in 300 seconds I'd be well chuffed! How DO people win the Obscure Researcher badge? crazy


Edited by dsimpy (Sun Dec 12 2010 07:31 AM)
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Exegi monumentum aere perennius regalique situ pyramidum altius - and that was before breakfast!

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#575703 - Sun Dec 12 2010 08:45 AM Re: Added lev 100 mini-badge: The Centurion Champs [Re: dsimpy]
themonarch Offline
Mainstay

Registered: Sun Dec 09 2007
Posts: 735
Loc: Southeastern Connecticut USA
Personally I don't have an issue with googling speed is still awarded over research with time penalties but if you really want to prevent at least a good portion of googling why not just get rid of the Funtrivia Encyclopedia page? That is just a giant answer sheet right there, I can find half the answers to my authored quizzes alone on there.
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#575714 - Sun Dec 12 2010 09:02 AM Re: Added lev 100 mini-badge: The Centurion Champs [Re: themonarch]
Jennings Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: Tue Nov 03 2009
Posts: 416
Loc: Surrey
England UK
Originally Posted By: themonarch
Personally I don't have an issue with googling speed is still awarded over research with time penalties but if you really want to prevent at least a good portion of googling why not just get rid of the Funtrivia Encyclopedia page? That is just a giant answer sheet right there, I can find half the answers to my authored quizzes alone on there.


I presume the Encyclopedia page on cheating is supposed to cover this.

http://www.funtrivia.com/en/cheating.cfm

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#575722 - Sun Dec 12 2010 09:16 AM Re: Added lev 100 mini-badge: The Centurion Champs [Re: Jennings]
dsimpy Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: Sun Jan 24 2010
Posts: 447
Loc: Belfast Ireland
You learn something every day. I've been on this site over a year and, till just now, have never come across this Encylopedia. Whee! wink
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Exegi monumentum aere perennius regalique situ pyramidum altius - and that was before breakfast!

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#575733 - Sun Dec 12 2010 10:37 AM Re: Added lev 100 mini-badge: The Centurion Champs [Re: dsimpy]
WesleyCrusher Offline

Administrator

Registered: Thu Sep 04 2008
Posts: 3712
Loc: Germany
I agree with many others that the best way to control googling is the time penalty on the games. Googling answers under pressure is one of the ways many players build their knowledge base, so it surely should not be eliminated entirely, but it shouldn't be possible to win a Smartest, Expert or Daily Mix by googling half of the answers.

On the other hand, there are slower players around who need more time to play a quiz without google than someone who looks up two or three out of fifteen. However, we have a tool just for this and it's called "levels".

Now what I am proposing may be a bit tough to implement, but ultimately it may lead to better gameplay: On those games where googling should be discouraged, two scores are kept - one is the standard score we use for the monthly average and the FT points (which is calculated the same for all players regardless of level), the other is used for ranking within a division (which is not).

So, for example, Smartest could use

1/second on levels 1-20
1.5/sec on 21-40
2/sec for 41-53
3/sec for 54-67
4/sec for 68+
and 6/sec for Champions.

(Note: It might be easier to code this by not varying the time penalty but by changing the question value for intra-division ranking. In this case, a correct question could be 200, 125, 100, 65, 50 and 30 points respectively with the time penalty always being 2.)

Since inherently slower players tend to stay at lower to medium levels, they will not have their fun negatively be affected by this progression while at the top levels and at champion level, knowledge and memorization will more and more trump even the fastest googling and also add a signficant feeling of playing at a truly higher level in the top tourneys.

This may also require one additional change to be made to expert (which might in general be a good one): When winning any level division but the top one, you are not immediately placed into Champion where a lower level player will be completely out of their depth (in many cases, the winner of the 1-20 division has far less a score than the 10th in 76+ or champ) but only raised to the next higher group for that topic. So a level 34 with 2 wins in Physics would be playing that topic with the 47-60 group and the level display for that person would show something like "34 (+2)".

Wes


Edited by WesleyCrusher (Sun Dec 12 2010 10:43 AM)
Edit Reason: Added Expert game consideration
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#575735 - Sun Dec 12 2010 10:39 AM Re: Added lev 100 mini-badge: The Centurion Champs [Re: themonarch]
Terry Offline

Head Honcho

Registered: Wed Dec 31 1969
Posts: 17689
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: themonarch
Personally I don't have an issue with googling speed is still awarded over research with time penalties but if you really want to prevent at least a good portion of googling why not just get rid of the Funtrivia Encyclopedia page? That is just a giant answer sheet right there, I can find half the answers to my authored quizzes alone on there.


The encyclopedia exposes data to google in order to give us deep indexing. We receive LOTS of traffic, and lots of new players through people googling stuff in Google and coming to FunTrivia because of it. While quiz "play" pages are googled, all of the interesting info is hidden. By sharing this info with Google, Google sends us a lot of love.

So it does serve a very important role in keeping FunTrivia a high visibility website.

There are things that I could do to severely impair its use. For example, whenever you click play on a game, your IP address is put on a "temporary encyclopedia block list". Then, for the duration of that game, you will be blocked from viewing the encyclopedia. This would prevent a great majority of its use from active players. Perhaps I'll implement this some day, but it hasn't seemed to be a huge problem to me.


Edited by Terry (Sun Dec 12 2010 10:41 AM)

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#575738 - Sun Dec 12 2010 11:16 AM Re: Added lev 100 mini-badge: The Centurion Champs [Re: dsimpy]
bubblesfun Offline
Mainstay

Registered: Thu Jan 15 2009
Posts: 649
Loc: New York USA
Originally Posted By: dsimpy
You learn something every day. I've been on this site over a year and, till just now, have never come across this Encylopedia. Whee! wink


I had no clue about it until now either! I have come across some of the "fun facts" pages along the way, but I thought they were just something random, not an organized encyclopedia.
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"We mock what we are to become"

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#575749 - Sun Dec 12 2010 12:15 PM Re: Added lev 100 mini-badge: The Centurion Champs [Re: bubblesfun]
cubswin2323 Offline
Mainstay

Registered: Sun Jan 31 2010
Posts: 931
Loc: Omaha, Nebraska
It is organized, but it doesn't cover everything. If a person were to memorize it would help a ton. Googling can help yes, but its benefits can only take a person so far. For me, repetition has always been the most beneficial for me. If anybody here knows how much I have benefitted from doing things over and over and over again, it's you Alex. And over and over aaaaand over! FMI and Speed Demon in particular favors the obsessive type! lol


Edited by cubswin2323 (Sun Dec 12 2010 12:15 PM)
_________________________
-Dave

December 23rd is Festivus. A Festivus for the rest of us! Get the aluminum pole out from the crawl space. A donation has been made in your name to The Human Fund. The Human Fund. Money for people.

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#575780 - Sun Dec 12 2010 02:08 PM Re: Added lev 100 mini-badge: The Centurion Champs [Re: cubswin2323]
cubswin2323 Offline
Mainstay

Registered: Sun Jan 31 2010
Posts: 931
Loc: Omaha, Nebraska
Now to get BACK to the discussion I wanted to talk about originally back on Friday. I am proposing a badge or badgelet which covers those who have won a WTS division in mulitple categories. My vision is STILL clear on this, and I think I merits a discussion. There are 15 categories in WTS, I like the idea of 10-12. Something bigger for all 15 maybe. It's like Expert badges for Jack of Many or All Trades. I believe WTS is THE signature game of the hourlies, and I find it puzzling WW has had more new stuff done for it than WTS. Perhaps something similar could be done for P of C. I think it would be really neat Terry. I really like the Da Vinci idea. It's a strong vision I have, and I think folks will like it.


Edited by cubswin2323 (Sun Dec 12 2010 02:19 PM)
_________________________
-Dave

December 23rd is Festivus. A Festivus for the rest of us! Get the aluminum pole out from the crawl space. A donation has been made in your name to The Human Fund. The Human Fund. Money for people.

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#575802 - Sun Dec 12 2010 03:38 PM Re: Added lev 100 mini-badge: The Centurion Champs [Re: cubswin2323]
portgleep Offline
Forum Adept

Registered: Sat Oct 09 2010
Posts: 145
Loc: NYC New York USA              
I think Googling defeats the purpose of taking competitive quizzes.

That said, it isn't "cheating" to Google answers. I just think its not that fair to those who play from their mind, but thats just my opinion.

Several people have compared remembering questions from previous games by a few key words, and not reading the questions or answers, to Googling - as in both of them aren't educational.

But there have been efforts to crack down on this. Why do you think we have a Question Quest game? Why do you think we have so many authoring badges to encourage people to submit more quizzes? So we're fighting against THAT problem, just as we should fight against this one.

One thing that people seem to have overlooked:

Internet connection. It is extremely hard for me to score the best in timed games because my computer spend 5-10 seconds each game loading the page or submitting my answers. 5-10 seconds is quite important when you get to the top-three scores.

But I don't think it should be made even harder for me to do well because of my internet connection. I simply CAN'T google it (it would take to long) if I want to get one of the top scores - and neither can all of those who perhaps don't have enough money to upgrade our computers to the fastest modern ones.

Therefore, if there aren't increased efforts to crack down on Googling, its just discriminating against slower-internet connections, and in a round-about way, poorer people.
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#575834 - Sun Dec 12 2010 04:35 PM Re: Added lev 100 mini-badge: The Centurion Champs [Re: portgleep]
cubswin2323 Offline
Mainstay

Registered: Sun Jan 31 2010
Posts: 931
Loc: Omaha, Nebraska
Now to get BACK to the discussion I wanted to talk about ORIGINALLY back on Friday. I am proposing a badge or badgelet which covers those who have won a WTS division in mulitple categories. My vision is STILL clear on this, and I think I merits a discussion. There are 15 categories in WTS, I like the idea of 10-12. Something bigger for all 15 maybe. It's like Expert badges for Jack of Many or All Trades. I believe WTS is THE signature game of the hourlies, and I find it puzzling WW has had more new stuff done for it than WTS. Perhaps something similar could be done for P of C. I think it would be really neat Terry. I really like the Da Vinci idea. It's a strong vision I have, and I think folks will like it.

I WILL talk about this again and again until it gets the discussion it merits. Period. The other discussion is SETTLED!
_________________________
-Dave

December 23rd is Festivus. A Festivus for the rest of us! Get the aluminum pole out from the crawl space. A donation has been made in your name to The Human Fund. The Human Fund. Money for people.

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#575846 - Sun Dec 12 2010 05:32 PM Re: Added lev 100 mini-badge: The Centurion Champs [Re: cubswin2323]
Terry Offline

Head Honcho

Registered: Wed Dec 31 1969
Posts: 17689
Loc: USA
Perhaps WTS can get a mini-game of its own like Word Wizard and KO at some point in the future. Right now thought it's a fairly straightforward hourly game.

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#575851 - Sun Dec 12 2010 05:39 PM Re: Added lev 100 mini-badge: The Centurion Champs [Re: portgleep]
Terry Offline

Head Honcho

Registered: Wed Dec 31 1969
Posts: 17689
Loc: USA
<< Therefore, if there aren't increased efforts to crack down on Googling, its just discriminating against slower-internet connections, and in a round-about way, poorer people. >>

You have no idea what discrimination is, do you?

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#575852 - Sun Dec 12 2010 05:42 PM Re: Added lev 100 mini-badge: The Centurion Champs [Re: Terry]
portgleep Offline
Forum Adept

Registered: Sat Oct 09 2010
Posts: 145
Loc: NYC New York USA              
Lol, I'll admit discrimination isn't exactly the word I was looking for. But anyone who knows what discrimination means gets what I mean.
_________________________
Its true that some of Winston Churchill's actions were praiseworthy. But personally, his treatment of India during and before WWII will always make me think of him primarily as an evil, powerhungry, racist murderer.

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#575857 - Sun Dec 12 2010 05:51 PM Re: Added lev 100 mini-badge: The Centurion Champs [Re: portgleep]
dsimpy Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: Sun Jan 24 2010
Posts: 447
Loc: Belfast Ireland
Originally Posted By: portgleep
Lol, I'll admit discrimination isn't exactly the word I was looking for. But anyone who knows what discrimination means gets what I mean.


You're great value, Portgleep - love it! laugh
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Exegi monumentum aere perennius regalique situ pyramidum altius - and that was before breakfast!

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#575861 - Sun Dec 12 2010 06:07 PM Re: Added lev 100 mini-badge: The Centurion Champs [Re: portgleep]
Terry Offline

Head Honcho

Registered: Wed Dec 31 1969
Posts: 17689
Loc: USA
Perhaps I need to create a "poor people assistance" squad, which will appear at the doors of "poor people" and help them cheat more effectively.

I'll get right on it.

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#575862 - Sun Dec 12 2010 06:13 PM Re: Added lev 100 mini-badge: The Centurion Champs [Re: Terry]
postcards2go Offline
Mainstay

Registered: Thu Nov 20 2008
Posts: 792
Loc: New Jersey USA
Terry, I really don't think that portgleep meant to say that FT was discriminatory.

I believe he was still responding to Anton, and trying to say that onerous time penalties would hurt people who are slow, but not because they Google... just because they have real-life issues that make them slow. smile
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#575863 - Sun Dec 12 2010 06:16 PM Re: Added lev 100 mini-badge: The Centurion Champs [Re: postcards2go]
ssabreman Offline
Prolific

Registered: Wed Nov 03 2010
Posts: 1603
Loc: K-W Ontario Canada
Okay, so we all must have the same computer speed, server speed, instant recall ability, click-speed etc. And at the end of the game, we are all tied with the same score. Yippee!

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