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#601324 - Thu Mar 03 2011 12:12 PM Re: How do players answer so quickly? [Re: shuehorn]
Anton Offline
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Registered: Sat May 03 2008
Posts: 911
Loc: California USA
Originally Posted By: shuehorn
I'm glad to hear it's not a problem for you, cubswin2323, but I still dislike a snap judgement made without proof. haven't any of you gotten a phone call in the middle of one of these quizzes or gotten otherwise distracted and then submitted your answers late? There are so many ways other than googling to have a long quiz time.


It was far from a snap judgment, and there was plenty of proof. We PBSers are a Google free team. None of us do it, and none of us like it. When we compete against other players, we do it with only what's in our head. We don't know an answer? We roll the dice and take what score is given to us. There is no skill in Googling. Anybody can get all the questions right when the answers are given to them.

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#601333 - Thu Mar 03 2011 12:28 PM Re: How do players answer so quickly? [Re: cubswin2323]
kyleisalive Offline
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Registered: Mon Mar 07 2005
Posts: 5652
Loc: Toronto, Canada, eh!
Originally Posted By: cubswin2323
"Winner!"

-C.Sheen

If I inject myself with tiger blood, is that illegal doping under FT rules? I haven't read any rule against it. Just wondering.


If we're following the immortal words of Mr. Sheen, then you might as well close your eyes and make it so with the power of your mind. wink
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#601334 - Thu Mar 03 2011 12:30 PM Re: How do players answer so quickly? [Re: Anton]
salami_swami Offline
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Registered: Thu Nov 01 2007
Posts: 8188
Loc: Colorado USA
Anton, can you PROVE that not even ONE of your team members has googled even a single answer? I believe googling takes just as much "skill" as it does to memorize answers from questions you've seen in the past and have just grown to recall the correct answer. How many of us got 10 right in the easy game the very first time we played, and in a quick time? How many of us aced the daily game without any previous knowledge of the questions? A very tiny number, for sure. Googling and memorizing aren't much different, in my opinion.

If someone doesn't think Googling takes any skill, and they think that their scores without Googling are totally fair and equal scores, they are very wrong. They have memorized the answers, and in essense, they have researched the answer by using the question itself previously.


I think both ways are perfectly fine; we all memorize answers, and there is no way around it. Only a few Google. So those who don't like our Googling shouldn't complain.
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#601335 - Thu Mar 03 2011 12:43 PM Re: How do players answer so quickly? [Re: salami_swami]
Anton Offline
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Originally Posted By: salami_swami
Anton, can you PROVE that not even ONE of your team members has googled even a single answer?


Yes, I can. Every single person on my team gets horrible scores from time to time. What does that mean? They guessed and didn't look up the answer.

Originally Posted By: salami_swami
I believe googling takes just as much "skill" as it does to memorize answers from questions you've seen in the past and have just grown to recall the correct answer. How many of us got 10 right in the easy game the very first time we played, and in a quick time? How many of us aced the daily game without any previous knowledge of the questions? A very tiny number, for sure. Googling and memorizing aren't much different, in my opinion.


Googling and memorizing are as different as night and day. memorizing happens when either you guess and get it wrong and guess and get it right. Either way you didn't look up the answer to assure you get it right.

Originally Posted By: salami_swami
If someone doesn't think Googling takes any skill, and they think that their scores without Googling are totally fair and equal scores, they are very wrong. They have memorized the answers, and in essense, they have researched the answer by using the question itself previously.


This makes no sense Swami. You are saying that a player remembering the answer they got in a previous game is the same as looking up the answer to pad their score. Come on, Swami. What skill is there when Google is doing the work for you?


Originally Posted By: salami_swami
I think both ways are perfectly fine; we all memorize answers, and there is no way around it. Only a few Google. So those who don't like our Googling shouldn't complain.


Imagine this scenario: Everybody who has played a certain game has struggled and the top score is a 6/10. Along comes a player who takes almost three minutes and gets them all right. That's an obvious Google job, and that player did not earn the win You'd be ok with that?


Edited by AntonLaVey (Thu Mar 03 2011 12:44 PM)

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#601341 - Thu Mar 03 2011 12:57 PM Re: How do players answer so quickly? [Re: Anton]
kyleisalive Offline
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Registered: Mon Mar 07 2005
Posts: 5652
Loc: Toronto, Canada, eh!
This is an issue that has been discussed many times and Terry has altered many games to give clear penalties for those who take their time to complete the timed quizzes. Unfortunately, Googling is one of those topics that will have both supporters and opposition and Terry has made it a point that it's not cheating. Some games promote it and some do not.

What about two people working on the same account to complete a quiz? Is that fair? Combined, if two people answer the questions together and win the quiz in a shorter time than everyone else, are they entitled to the win even if everyone else played solo?

Unfortunately, there's no way to stop this. This may be one of those ones where people have to agree to disagree. There's no point in flogging a dead horse.
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#601346 - Thu Mar 03 2011 01:23 PM Re: How do players answer so quickly? [Re: kyleisalive]
salami_swami Offline
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Registered: Thu Nov 01 2007
Posts: 8188
Loc: Colorado USA
Quote:
Yes, I can. Every single person on my team gets horrible scores from time to time. What does that mean? They guessed and didn't look up the answer.


That does not mean they didn't look up answers. I can google and get 6/10 right in 200 seconds. A bad score does NOT mean that they don't Google, not even once. Also, it doesn't mean a Googler googles EVERY game. 6/10 correct might not be googling, but then the next hour they might get 10 in 150 seconds.

Quote:
This makes no sense Swami. You are saying that a player remembering the answer they got in a previous game is the same as looking up the answer to pad their score. Come on, Swami. What skill is there when Google is doing the work for you?


Googling isn't doing the work for anybody. Looking up the answer will get you to remember it next time. Just like randomly guessing, and then using that question as "research" so you can get it right next time. Both are ways to memorize the question to be able to correctly answer it next time.

Quote:
Imagine this scenario: Everybody who has played a certain game has struggled and the top score is a 6/10. Along comes a player who takes almost three minutes and gets them all right. That's an obvious Google job, and that player did not earn the win You'd be ok with that?


I never said that. And no, it's not always a Google job. Some people are smart, but slow. Doesn't mean they Googled. And seriously, Anton, does Googling ever win the easy game or the hard game or the daily game? No. Speed wins. Have you EVER seen 10 right in 3 minutes with the rest with only 6 right? In expert, sometimes, yes. That's it. Googling isn't always a surefire way to win. Sometimes Googling is not worth it, because the speed demons will cream whatever score Googling will get.

Then, of course, in expert, you might see 15 in 100 seconds. Doesn't always mean Googling, because that person might just actually be an expert in the category.

If I could stop Googling across the entire FunTrivia community for an entire day, I would, that way you could see that Googling is NOT the reason people win all the time. Look at Incognito101, for instance. How many people would agree that she never Googled? Most, if not all, would believe so. What were her scores? 15 in 74 seconds in obscurity. She could score very highly, and though the times were sometimes slow, she didn't Google.


And of course, there are those who Google, but STILL beat Speed demons. If you see a score of 15 in 50 seconds, you might think "they didn't Google". This is the Totally wrong thinking. Some people are super fast Googlers. Also, sometimes just one answer needs to be Googled. I know I have managed 15 in 35 seconds in a category or two, with Googling ONE answer to just to be sure I got it right. You can't judge people based on times and number correct. It doesn't mean Googling necessarily, and fast times with all of them right doesn't necessarily mean they didn't Google, either.



As Kyle stated, it's not something that can be stopped. This argument will get nowhere. Nothing will come from this. It's a lose lose situation for everybody. If you're good with it, Anton, I'd like to not argue about this any longer. This is my last post on this board.
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#601352 - Thu Mar 03 2011 01:57 PM Re: How do players answer so quickly? [Re: salami_swami]
Anton Offline
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Posts: 911
Loc: California USA
Originally Posted By: salami_swami

That does not mean they didn't look up answers. I can google and get 6/10 right in 200 seconds. A bad score does NOT mean that they don't Google, not even once. Also, it doesn't mean a Googler googles EVERY game. 6/10 correct might not be googling, but then the next hour they might get 10 in 150 seconds.


Ok, if you think my team Googles, then why are we not consistently getting very slow times, or consistently high percentages right? We have plenty of bad days. believe me, my team does not Google.


Originally Posted By: salami_swami
Googling isn't doing the work for anybody. Looking up the answer will get you to remember it next time. Just like randomly guessing, and then using that question as "research" so you can get it right next time. Both are ways to memorize the question to be able to correctly answer it next time.


Google looks up and supplies the answer for you. How is the player doing any of the work? Guessing and memorizing an answer is nowhere near the same thing since it is the player using only what is in their head and no outside sources.



Originally Posted By: salami_swami
I never said that. And no, it's not always a Google job. Some people are smart, but slow. Doesn't mean they Googled. And seriously, Anton, does Googling ever win the easy game or the hard game or the daily game? No. Speed wins. Have you EVER seen 10 right in 3 minutes with the rest with only 6 right? In expert, sometimes, yes. That's it. Googling isn't always a surefire way to win. Sometimes Googling is not worth it, because the speed demons will cream whatever score Googling will get.


yes, I have seen a 10/10 in three minutes with the rest only getting a high of 6/10. Why do you think I used that example? far better players than the one who Googled were struggling with that game and this player gets them all right in three minutes? That will always be a Google job. No, it wasn't in the hourlies. Yes, I have seen a Googler win the hard game. That is one game where it is possible to be successful using Google.

Originally Posted By: salami_swami
Then, of course, in expert, you might see 15 in 100 seconds. Doesn't always mean Googling, because that person might just actually be an expert in the category.


No, it doesn't always mean Googling took place. You're right about that. There is another factor in play too. You have to look at the rest of the field. There are topics where everybody struggles. If a player who has a history of getting fast times consistently gets times much slower than the rest of the field with getting all of the answers right when all the others struggled to get half right, obviously something is off.

Originally Posted By: salami_swami
If I could stop Googling across the entire FunTrivia community for an entire day, I would, that way you could see that Googling is NOT the reason people win all the time. Look at Incognito101, for instance. How many people would agree that she never Googled? Most, if not all, would believe so. What were her scores? 15 in 74 seconds in obscurity. She could score very highly, and though the times were sometimes slow, she didn't Google.


When did I say Google was the reason some players win all the time?

And for the record, I am not arguing. This isn't the first time I've been accused of arguing when all I am doing is simply stating my opinion while discussing a subject.I know why though, and I also understand why.

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#601364 - Thu Mar 03 2011 02:41 PM Re: How do players answer so quickly? [Re: Anton]
salami_swami Offline
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Registered: Thu Nov 01 2007
Posts: 8188
Loc: Colorado USA
Quote:
then why are we not consistently getting very slow times, or consistently high percentages right


I'm not saying you have ANY people who do nothing BUT google. But I'm sure that on occasion, at least ONE of your members has Googled. Sometimes, I google all 10 answers, and get only 6 right in 100 seconds. Bad scores does not mean you don't Google.

Quote:
We have plenty of bad days


So do Googlers.

Quote:
No, it doesn't always mean Googling took place. You're right about that. There is another factor in play too. You have to look at the rest of the field. There are topics where everybody struggles. If a player who has a history of getting fast times consistently gets times much slower than the rest of the field with getting all of the answers right when all the others struggled to get half right, obviously something is off.


A topic where everyone struggles and someone gets a high score does NOT mean they are Googling. For instance, in "Science Fiction", most of the questions were Star Wars books, so I was able to get 14 or 15 right in a somewhat slow time. Did I google, no, I did not. Was the average high? No, two, maybe three scores were over 1,000 points. Had you seen this score, and how everyone else was struggling, would you have thought I Googled? Probably. But I didn't. I KNOW the category. How many people struggle in a certain game does not prove anything. One person could happen to know some answers others do not know.

Quote:
And for the record, I am not arguing


I think you and I can both agree that neither of us are simply "stating an opinion". If we were both simply "stating an opinion", we wouldn't continue to post quotes from each other, arguing why that person is wrong, or explaining the opinion of the other based on a sentence. I'll admit I am arguing with you, and it will get neither of us anywhere. I know I said with my last post that I would not post again, and I just did, but I do mean it this time. I am done arguing. My rant is over, and I for one don't think either one of us is right or wrong. Let's simply stop "stating our opinions" and move on. Nothing will result from it, anyway.
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#601403 - Thu Mar 03 2011 03:02 PM Re: How do players answer so quickly? [Re: salami_swami]
BxBarracuda Offline
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Registered: Wed Sep 05 2007
Posts: 4774
Loc: Bronx
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Other then for the Obscure Researcher badge and Bus Ride I don't see a need for googling.

For me googling isn't about learning the answers, it's about getting higher scores in an easy manner.

You will get the answers after you click submit and see how you did on your own and in a faster time then it would take to google answers.

You can usually learn a lot more by always reading the interesting information provided by the writers then by googling for quick answer only.

Googling does take skill for tough questions, but they are completely different skills then it takes to figure the answers out yourself or take your best educated guess.

I say leave it up to the tournament hosts as to how they want to run their tournaments.

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#601404 - Thu Mar 03 2011 03:02 PM Re: How do players answer so quickly? [Re: salami_swami]
mehaul Offline
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Registered: Wed Feb 03 2010
Posts: 5187
Loc: Florida USA
Neither of my eyes go googley anymore! Is that what this was about? I don't get how crossing your eyes could make you any faster (except in the new Mind Melt drop downs perhaps).
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#601405 - Thu Mar 03 2011 03:03 PM Re: How do players answer so quickly? [Re: salami_swami]
WesleyCrusher Offline
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Registered: Thu Sep 04 2008
Posts: 3745
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Originally Posted By: salami_swami
Let's simply stop "stating our opinions" and move on. Nothing will result from it, anyway.


I fully agree with that assessment and suggestion. Thanks smile
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#601624 - Thu Mar 03 2011 06:07 PM Re: How do players answer so quickly? [Re: BxBarracuda]
bubblesfun Offline
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Originally Posted By: BxBarracuda
Other then for the Obscure Researcher badge and Bus Ride I don't see a need for googling.

For me googling isn't about learning the answers, it's about getting higher scores in an easy manner.

You will get the answers after you click submit and see how you did on your own and in a faster time then it would take to google answers.

You can usually learn a lot more by always reading the interesting information provided by the writers then by googling for quick answer only.

Googling does take skill for tough questions, but they are completely different skills then it takes to figure the answers out yourself or take your best educated guess.

I say leave it up to the tournament hosts as to how they want to run their tournaments.


You still get the benefit of the author's information whether you google or guess. You can learn something either way, no impact on the argument. I am baffled why guessing takes more work than googling, but I guess we all have our own opinions.
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#601627 - Thu Mar 03 2011 06:10 PM Re: How do players answer so quickly? [Re: bubblesfun]
bubblesfun Offline
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And, for those that have teams that never Google? Why would any 10 or 15 question game take over two minutes? That baffles me. Deep thoughts leading to guessing?
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#601628 - Thu Mar 03 2011 06:14 PM Re: How do players answer so quickly? [Re: WesleyCrusher]
bubblesfun Offline
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Originally Posted By: WesleyCrusher
Originally Posted By: salami_swami
Let's simply stop "stating our opinions" and move on. Nothing will result from it, anyway.


I fully agree with that assessment and suggestion. Thanks smile



Sigh. You are both correct.
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#601629 - Thu Mar 03 2011 06:19 PM Re: How do players answer so quickly? [Re: bubblesfun]
mehaul Offline
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Registered: Wed Feb 03 2010
Posts: 5187
Loc: Florida USA
On a fifteen question quiz, I seldom break the 120 second barrier and I do not google. Some of us just take longer than others for physical reasons to read and enter our answers. That, sweet one who puts up with Dave, is why some take more than two minutes for a quiz and not just because searching is taking place.
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#601630 - Thu Mar 03 2011 06:23 PM Re: How do players answer so quickly? [Re: mehaul]
bubblesfun Offline
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Posts: 650
Loc: New York USA
Originally Posted By: mehaul
On a fifteen question quiz, I seldom break the 120 second barrier and I do not google. Some of us just take longer than others for physical reasons to read and enter our answers. That, sweet one who puts up with Dave, is why some take more than two minutes for a quiz and not just because searching is taking place.


LOL! You make me giggle. Dave is a joy. And in some cases, yes, it is just a slower read and action, and sometimes it just isn't. Again, can't be assumed. And the arrogance inherent in making proclamations about an entire team is just odd. I can get a 32 second googled round or a 120 non-googled.
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#601632 - Thu Mar 03 2011 06:26 PM Re: How do players answer so quickly? [Re: mehaul]
JBCizzle Offline
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Registered: Fri Dec 03 2010
Posts: 160
Loc: Connecticut USA
Originally Posted By: mehaul
On a fifteen question quiz, I seldom break the 120 second barrier and I do not google. Some of us just take longer than others for physical reasons to read and enter our answers. That, sweet one who puts up with Dave, is why some take more than two minutes for a quiz and not just because searching is taking place.



I also resent that. wink

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#601633 - Thu Mar 03 2011 06:30 PM Re: How do players answer so quickly? [Re: bubblesfun]
guitargoddess Offline


Registered: Mon Jul 09 2007
Posts: 34076
Loc: Ottawa Ontario Canada         
Originally Posted By: bubblesfun
And, for those that have teams that never Google? Why would any 10 or 15 question game take over two minutes? That baffles me. Deep thoughts leading to guessing?


In Expert, it can depend on the category... I like when the subjects such as Social Science or Psychology come up... I spent enough time reading about/researching those topics for four years in school, I have no need to Google, but I usually have quite slow times in those categories because of the nature of the questions, usually they are either a bit lengthy or they simply need to be read slowly to fully understand, and I need to think about the answers because even if I don't immediately know, I know I know somewhere in my mind and I try to find it rather than just pick one and move on quickly. So, long story short - depends on the game and the questions!
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#601634 - Thu Mar 03 2011 06:31 PM Re: How do players answer so quickly? [Re: mehaul]
BxBarracuda Offline
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Registered: Wed Sep 05 2007
Posts: 4774
Loc: Bronx
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Bubbles, I would say making educated guesses takes more personal brain power. Often an answer to the question can be in my own brain somewhere, just takes a few more seconds to come out than other answers.

Whether it be long questions, me trying to read to fast and having to reread questions, getting stuck on a question I know I should know the answer to but can't come up with it at the moment are a few ways I end up with around 10 seconds per question.

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#601635 - Thu Mar 03 2011 06:51 PM Re: How do players answer so quickly? [Re: BxBarracuda]
cubswin2323 Offline
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Registered: Sun Jan 31 2010
Posts: 931
Loc: Omaha, Nebraska
Not to stick my head in the lion's, I mean tiger's mouth but...

To quote the wisdom of the great Ron Burgundy: Agree to disagree! Look how he handled the disagreement of how San Diego, CA got it's name with his future wife Veronica Corningstone. I think we need to ask ourselves: What would Ron Burgundy do? BTW, he actually gets his wisdom from that little Buddha with hair of his Baxter! Let us try to emulate their example of wisdom and tolerance.

All I know is this--my original question from earlier today STILL wasn't adequately answered except by maybe kyle. So am I stuck using the power of my mind to make it so with the use of the tiger blood? Well, I'm using tiger blood until I'm told I can't.

A round of drinks for everybody. Burgundy's buying!


Edited by cubswin2323 (Thu Mar 03 2011 06:51 PM)
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#601636 - Thu Mar 03 2011 06:52 PM Re: How do players answer so quickly? [Re: BxBarracuda]
bubblesfun Offline
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Registered: Thu Jan 15 2009
Posts: 650
Loc: New York USA
Originally Posted By: BxBarracuda
Bubbles, I would say making educated guesses takes more personal brain power. Often an answer to the question can be in my own brain somewhere, just takes a few more seconds to come out than other answers.

Whether it be long questions, me trying to read to fast and having to reread questions, getting stuck on a question I know I should know the answer to but can't come up with it at the moment are a few ways I end up with around 10 seconds per question.


I guess I will just have to say I disagree. I don't think guessing takes a lot of effort. At all. Googling is almost a science when you try and find the fewest words that will get you where you need to be. Ah, the joy of different opinions.
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#601658 - Thu Mar 03 2011 08:31 PM Re: How do players answer so quickly? [Re: bubblesfun]
satguru Offline
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Posts: 6434
Loc: Kingsbury London UK           
I don't remember anyone googling more than a couple of years ago, then a few people thought of it and some more joined them. On the timed games I can't see the point as the timing takes away the option of research normally, as all the other multitude of quizzes can take a day if you really want to (a few brain twists have for me in the past) and if you need a decent score to qualify for something then that's when you need to search. But the last thing I thought of personally for a timed quiz is to look up an answer on a separate tab when going for a decent time. The difference between memorising and looking is the same as someone asking you a question and you know it or they could look it up for themselves without asking you. Doctors memorise diseases and lawyers memorise cases or they'll fail their exams. If not then they'd just be given a computer and they could look them up instead. Not a comparison. The same goes for live quizzes like Mastermind. They are totally based on a capacity to memorise and nothing else, and if that is the skill being tested it's the sole criterion but an equally valid one as any other in a specific competition. In fact the quizzes rely on a lot of elimination and logic before the questions are memorised, and then if familiar enough it is a pure test of memory. Nobody ever gets better at googling or would have a googling contest, it would test nothing at all if using identical computers.


Edited by satguru (Thu Mar 03 2011 08:37 PM)
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#601676 - Thu Mar 03 2011 10:12 PM Re: How do players answer so quickly? [Re: satguru]
cubswin2323 Offline
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Do you think lawyers have all their case law memorized when they are actually PRACTICING law? If that's the case, the paralegal profession would be in SERIOUS trouble!
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#601678 - Thu Mar 03 2011 10:19 PM Re: How do players answer so quickly? [Re: satguru]
BxBarracuda Offline
Multiloquent

Registered: Wed Sep 05 2007
Posts: 4774
Loc: Bronx
New York USA     
Wild guessing doesn't take effort or usually help. In multiple choice ansswer situations a person can exclude some of the wrong answers or break a word they don't know down by it's part to help make a better guess.

As I menitoned earlier I recognize that googling takes skill, but it's a different skill set from making educated guesses, they are like apple and oranges.

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#601683 - Thu Mar 03 2011 10:24 PM Re: How do players answer so quickly? [Re: BxBarracuda]
BxBarracuda Offline
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Registered: Wed Sep 05 2007
Posts: 4774
Loc: Bronx
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But the best lawyers can approach the same case in multiple fashions. Knowing what aspects would be bset to focus on and how to present thier version of the facts is what seperates one lawyer from the rest.

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