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#649468 - Wed Aug 24 2011 10:57 AM Real trivia toughies
satguru Offline
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It's back to the old days (ie before Ask FT) when all the questions had to go here. I have posted two questions to Ask already and have proved too tough (but all answerable) so will post them here together so they hang about and have more chance to be seen. If any others (like today's) prove too tough I'll add them after a few days if unanswered as if anyone can sort them out everyone here can.

1) In this year's Canadian Grand Prix Jenson Button dropped to last place (at least 20th) and went on to win. Has anyone else done this before when there was a fairly full quota of drivers left at the end?

2) In English we have a separate V and W with the associated sounds, but apart from French (a late adopter of W mainly for foreign words) do any other languages have the same letter and sounds that go with them?


Edited by satguru (Wed Aug 24 2011 10:57 AM)
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#649479 - Wed Aug 24 2011 12:26 PM Re: Real trivia toughies
Anton Offline
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2. Swedish?


Edited by AntonLaVey (Wed Aug 24 2011 12:27 PM)

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#649481 - Wed Aug 24 2011 12:46 PM Re: Real trivia toughies
surdoux Offline
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I can only think of Barricello who went from 18th grid position to win in the 2000 German Gran Prix.
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#649505 - Wed Aug 24 2011 03:31 PM Re: Real trivia toughies
satguru Offline
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It shows my strategy worked, not a bite on Ask but two within a few hours already. I'll check Swedish- I'll actually be very surprised if no other languages share our V and W but do know nearly every one mixes them up, even though German for example has both but uses different letters (and how would they write our W- V possibly?) so tend to swap them for each other. I'll report back, and maybe Tom or Bloomsby will also know (I can often guess who's going to answer a question as you get to know the specialities).

As for the grand prix, I waited a day or two for the reports on Button as I've certainly never seen anyone win from last in a full pack (as opposed to something like the wet Brazilian one where hardly any were left at the end) and would have assumed the commentators would have announced it straight away like in cricket or football where they have all the stats at their fingertips. But in all the years of GP racing you'd expect it must have happened once or twice with far better cars being shunted down the order due to penalties and pitstops.
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#649514 - Wed Aug 24 2011 04:00 PM Re: Real trivia toughies
dippo Offline
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Originally Posted By: satguru
I have posted two questions to Ask already and have proved too tough (but all answerable)



As you say you will have to check on the suggested answers, this would imply that you don't know the answers to the questions you have posed. Therefore, how are you in a position to say they are answerable?

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#649557 - Wed Aug 24 2011 06:31 PM Re: Real trivia toughies
satguru Offline
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Originally Posted By: dippo

As you say you will have to check on the suggested answers, this would imply that you don't know the answers to the questions you have posed. Therefore, how are you in a position to say they are answerable?


Because as they're not either opinion or uncertain it's simply a question of finding someone who knows. A good number of questions can be googled in minutes which quite frankly makes me wonder why anyone needs to post them here as most of us have simply looked it up to answer, but the really good questions either don't have a direct quote to google or are so incredibly obscure the time taken trying to find them would take ages unless you knew it already. Basically I've found a hard core of questions I've asked would only really be suitable on specialist sites where everyone is already familiar with the topic, but don't fancy joining new forums to ask one question and vanish as I nearly always find when I leave them here someone answers them sooner or later. As for my specific comment to Anton it's because he added a question mark so presumably was not 100% certain. It's ok to give suggestions if they're possible when you don't have the definitive answer, just not in Ask any more as it did tend to jam up the system and most questions were answered directly pretty quickly. I've seen it develop since soon after it began.

But to answer your original question every one I've asked has been a fact, just one I didn't know and couldn't find by looking directly. I'm not asking if aliens have visited earth or more people prefer strawberry to raspberry jam, but things which have been known and recorded by experts or enthusiasts but not necessarily on websites. I wouldn't even know where to start trawling through foreign alphabets and then trying to learn what each letter then sounded like, but know other people have learned this already. The same applies to all the other unanswered questions I've had, although as long as I can still find them some have been answered a year or more later. I've gone through unanswered questions myself occasionally and answered old questions like that myself. We all know something few others do, that's why this site was created!


Edited by satguru (Wed Aug 24 2011 06:34 PM)
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#649647 - Thu Aug 25 2011 10:14 AM Re: Real trivia toughies
TabbyTom Offline
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Quote:
I'll actually be very surprised if no other languages share our V and W but do know nearly every one mixes them up, even though German for example has both but uses different letters (and how would they write our W- V possibly?)


In German the letter V is normally pronounced in the same way as F (the words viel (much) and fiel (fell) both sound like the English feel, while W is pronounced like the English V.

The article on W in the Oxford English Dictionary, and the pronunciation guide to older German in my Penguin Book of German Verse, suggest that in older German the letter W was pronounced in the same way as it is in English. I'm not sure when the sound changed, but at any rate the old sound has disappeared from native German words, and so they don't need to write it except in borrowings from English, in which they keep the English spelling (das Wallaby, for example). Similarly, you find V pronounced like our V in a few borrowings or scientific terms like die Villa or das Vakuum.

I don't know anything about the pronunciation of Scandinavian or Slavonic languages, but I'll see if I can find something.
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#649663 - Thu Aug 25 2011 11:01 AM Re: Real trivia toughies
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As far as winning from low places on the grid goes, John Watson won the 1983 US Grand Prix having started in 22nd place. Niki Lauda started in 23rd place and finished 2nd. Both were driving for McLaren.


Edited by flopsymopsy (Thu Aug 25 2011 11:02 AM)
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#649689 - Thu Aug 25 2011 12:47 PM Re: Real trivia toughies
satguru Offline
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Great stuff, flopsy, where did you get that from? I'll have a look and follow it up as that should lead to the definitive answer. I think if John Watson was 2 from the end and Lauda was 1 (if the field was the full 24) and no others have cropped up that would eliminate being last at the start, and if the source can then be followed to see leaders who ended up at the back after a better starting position it should sort it out. But so far it looks as if it's a first, in which case his career record may well be unique.

As far as the W is concered the alternative would be to ask native speakers, but where's a Finn when you need one? wink
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#649693 - Thu Aug 25 2011 01:26 PM Re: Real trivia toughies
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You mean you don't think that's the sort of fact I have at my fingertips? shocked

I googled. Something like "formula one grand prix win from last" and found this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Formula_One_driver_records

I also found a F1 fan site which confirmed that as the longest gap in places which ended in a win but for the life of me I can't find that page now - but there's also this:

http://en.espnf1.com/onthisday/motorsport/story/2316.html
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#652855 - Sun Sep 11 2011 03:13 PM Re: Real trivia toughies
satguru Offline
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Both links show John Watson finished first from 22nd on the grid in 1983, which is normally two from last but around the same as Jenson Button as a couple of drivers had dropped out at least, so has been equalled in places recovered at least, and also by a British driver. I would guess that as there's no reason not to include most overtakes (direct or via pit stops) it seems to be the record. I'll keep looking in case though as it's just as hard to recover places wherever you begin the race once you're there.

As for facts at fingertips most of my original answers here were ones I knew, just the same as when I read the similar newspaper columns in The Times and Daily Mail, but then when it was likely something could be looked up and hadn't been answered I look them up as well as I got there first, but even though it rarely happens nowadays I did answer a good deal of questions from personal knowledge, and books if I knew I had the right ones. But there will always be a hard core of questions that can't be answered on a search unless either very lucky something turns up within a similar one or take ages following links. Then it's ideal for here as we do have people who know many things, I've seen some which beat everyone as you'd expect but they are a small minority so in general I'm guessing a lot of other answers here are by people who knew them as I've tried searching some and couldn't get anywhere. Before the internet that and the library were the only ways.
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#653014 - Mon Sep 12 2011 04:25 AM Re: Real trivia toughies
malama Offline
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I saw this question and thought I had answered...
Try Dutch. For example in "van der Waals" (as in van der Waals - forces) the v and w are pronounced like the English letters. I am not a native Dutch speaker though.... any Dutch people out there?
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#653040 - Mon Sep 12 2011 08:42 AM Re: Real trivia toughies
satguru Offline
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If that's the case malama we've cracked it- I don't know if Leau's around but that should be easy to check now- and the Dutch have always been the best English speakers including the accent.
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#653080 - Mon Sep 12 2011 10:44 AM Re: Real trivia toughies
reeshy Offline
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http://web.me.com/schuffelen/Site/dureq.html (Here's another link if the previous doesn't work; he's closing the old site in a few days. http://www.heardutchhere.net/newindex.html )

Here's a site where a Dutch man reads out famous Dutch words and indeed "van der Waals" is pronounced with an English "v" and "w" sound. I'm pretty shocked as I always thought it was an Anglicism and was too influenced by the German :P

EDIT: In fact, the more I listen to them, the "w" is in between English "v" and "w" and indeed the Dutch IPA lists both sounds in the same panel. Also, I was focused too much on the "w" in van der Waals that it escaped my notice that the "v" is indeed an "f" sound like in German. So Dutch doesn't answer your question :P


Edited by reeshy (Mon Sep 12 2011 11:03 AM)
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#653115 - Mon Sep 12 2011 02:08 PM Re: Real trivia toughies
malama Offline
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I once ran into trouble with a Dutch physicist over my German pronunciation of "van der Waals" ( like fan der Vaals, at least for the consonants). He claimed it should be pronounced like in English; if I listen now to the website you cited, the truth seems to be somewhat in the middle...

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#653376 - Tue Sep 13 2011 01:32 PM Re: Real trivia toughies
satguru Offline
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I seem to remember my Dutch friend at school told me Van Gogh was pronounced more like fan choch, if so we may still have to wait for an answer. But I thought it was a pretty good question anyway! The reason it occured to me was I've hardly ever heard one person from abroad regardless of where from get the two sounds right in English, however good the rest is or how long they've been here for. That told me they were clearly unusual, and still to find one for certain which does. I'll ask my Norwegian friend next but suspect Scandinavian consonants are going to be more like German, and across the Slavic countries the V and W sounds are totally different, so seem to have set up a good challenge.
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#653389 - Tue Sep 13 2011 02:48 PM Re: Real trivia toughies
reeshy Offline
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Re Van Gogh, the man on the site I posted says it this same way ("fan choch"). It is indeed an interesting question.
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#654647 - Sun Sep 18 2011 09:56 AM Re: Real trivia toughies
triviapaul Offline
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In Dutch, F, V and W are distinct and different. Fier, vier and wier (proud, four and seaweed) are recognisable as different words to Dutch ears. The V and F are more or less the same as in English, the W is slightly different, and may sound too much like a V for English ears to distinguish.
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#654741 - Sun Sep 18 2011 06:28 PM Re: Real trivia toughies
satguru Offline
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Thanks Paul. My next virtual trip is to West Africa. They share the W but have yet to find an example of a V, but am now searching. If anyone knows already of course that will beat me to it!
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#654964 - Mon Sep 19 2011 04:27 PM Re: Real trivia toughies
satguru Offline
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I think I've cracked it, the main Nigerian language of Igbo seems to share both letters and sounds, although I've yet to find an actual word with a V in it (W is very common).

Igbo language

Yoruba however, the other major language has no V at all.

As I do know at least one member here from Nigeria I can ask him, and pretty easy to check closer to home if I ask around locally as well.

If any others crop up please add them here, the Latin languages didn't have a w and the Slavic reverse the sounds, while the oriental don't use the same alphabet (and Indian speakers of all regions I've come across can't distinguish the two in English automatically so clearly not in common), so would need somewhere pretty obscure tucked away elsewhere to add (besides other countries speaking the Niger family across that band of Africa) but I was only looking for one and seem to have found it.
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