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#651242 - Fri Sep 02 2011 02:58 AM Famous people and their 'good causes'
romeomikegolf Offline

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Loc: Rothwell Northants England UK 
For those outside of the UK, a little background.

We have, for many years, had a 'problem' with so called 'travellers'. This is the PC name for those folks that used to be labelled Gypsies. Part of the problem was where are they allowed to set up camp. No one wanted them. Over time they have ceased their roaming and have set up permanent sites. Many of these sites are perfectly legal, but many are not. There is one in the news now, very close to a small village in Essex, that is a major story. Part of the site was bought by the 'travellers' and planning permission was sought, and given, for a certain number of pitches. Later, a further piece of land was bought and many more permanent pitches were set up illegally. Planning permission was never given because the site was designated as 'green belt'. The local council has been trying to evict these illegals for some time and now has the authority of the High Court to do so.

Vanessa Redgrave, a long time left wing activist, has jumped on the wagon to defend these illegal pitches. On TV today she made all sorts of excuses as to why they should be allowed to remain. One was that they have the support of the local Catholic community. Not surprising as most of the 'travellers' are of Irish Catholic decent. She talked about the rights of these people, but never once commentated on the rights of the villagers to live their lives free of harassment.
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#651245 - Fri Sep 02 2011 04:23 AM Re: Famous people and their 'good causes' [Re: romeomikegolf]
romeomikegolf Offline

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On the whole, 'travellers' and the locals get on, although there is mistrust on both sides. Having lived very near to several of these sites I think I can comment through personal experience, which is something these celebs can't do. A few years back, where I lived in Oxfordshire, there was a 'traveller' community that caused a lot of trouble. The local villagers made attempts to limit the numbers and they were banned from all of the local pubs because of the trouble they caused. The 'travellers', all with Southern Irish accents called the Committee for Racial Equality claiming discrimination. It turned out they all had UK passports and at least half had never been to Ireland.
The sites they lived on were full of discarded junk and looked like scrap yards. The kids were very abusive and the parents weren't much better. On one occasion one of them parked a large van right across the pavement with its front end just feet away from the door to the local shop. Anyone that complained was threatened with violence.
It's little wonder local communities do not want these people living close to them. There are, however, some 'travellers' that don't cause problems. They abide by the law and respect the locals. I just wish the ones that camp illegally would understand what the problem is and the so called celebs that support them tried living next door for a year or so.
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#651254 - Fri Sep 02 2011 05:59 AM Re: Famous people and their 'good causes' [Re: romeomikegolf]
sue943 Offline

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When I was in primary school there was a wood next to the school and presumably some open ground as every so often a travellers group would set up camp. I don't know if there was any problem, I never heard of any. The children used to come to our school and I remember one girl named Kathleen being in my class.

I have watched Big Fat Gypsy Weddings and felt sorry for the way they had such problems finding venues etc.

I am sure the travellers must be like any other people, some good, some bad and it is a shame when the good ones suffer for the sins of the bad. Then that is the same with everything else these days.
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#651256 - Fri Sep 02 2011 06:28 AM Re: Famous people and their 'good causes' [Re: sue943]
ren33 Offline
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A group in Gloucester recently broke into the grounds of my old school by cutting the wire fence and parking on the hockey field while the school was closed for Easter Holidays. It was very difficult to remove them and the mess and destruction was awful.
I feel that, by all means, travellers should be helped to find permanent parking places if they need them, but that sort of illegal action should be stopped. That's not the right was to do it. Perhaps Vanessa needs to be encouraged to help through legal channels.


Edited by ren33 (Fri Sep 02 2011 06:31 AM)
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#651257 - Fri Sep 02 2011 06:29 AM Re: Famous people and their 'good causes' [Re: sue943]
romeomikegolf Offline

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There are definitely good and bad. Where I lived before I knew some really nice people that lived on the site. I have also had friends from both sides of the Irish border who hate them, mainly because they give the Irish a bad name. Irish people are very welcoming and you couldn't have a better holiday than touring the real Ireland.
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#651258 - Fri Sep 02 2011 06:32 AM Re: Famous people and their 'good causes' [Re: sue943]
lesley153 Offline
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Loc: Bedford England UK           
Twenty-three years ago, in the maternity wing, there were two girls who stood well out from the rest of us by their loudness, abusiveness, and their intense familiarity with Their Rights. I couldn't believe how rude, demanding and selfish they were. One of the other women said they were Gypsies. More recently, a family we know, living a few miles outside Bedford, said that a Gypsy family had camped on a open piece of land between houses, and spend all day every day burning things. The family said they put up with the constant smoke and fumes because the repercussions if they'd complained would have been worse.

These two incidences are the only experiences I can remember offhand, not counting driving past filthy tips after they'd moved out, and the occasional offer of tree-cutting and drive-laying. I don't want any more.

I have no time for Vanessa Bleeding-Heart Redgrave. (If I write more, my screen will turn blue and melt.)
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#651276 - Fri Sep 02 2011 09:31 AM Re: Famous people and their 'good causes' [Re: lesley153]
Daymare Offline
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We have squatters here as well. They move into unoccupied homes and then the owner has to go through the legal system to have them evicted.

What ever happened to trespassing laws?

I have no problem if people get the proper permits and don't expect everyone else to allow them to do as they please no matter what. Unfortunately, it is the trouble makers which ruin it for everyone.

Vanessa needs a hobby. One she knows about and she needs to get off the band wagon just so her name is in print.



Edited by Daymare (Fri Sep 02 2011 09:45 AM)

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#651299 - Fri Sep 02 2011 11:22 AM Re: Famous people and their 'good causes' [Re: Daymare]
romeomikegolf Offline

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These people aren't squatters. They bought the land and then illegally built on it. To build on land in the UK you need planing permission from the local authority if there is a change of use or if the development is above a certain size. This law applies to all of us. The land they bought was designated as 'green belt'. That means they should have sought a change of use to make it residential. That permission was never given. Trespass law is civil. The land owner must prove damage etc. They own the land so Trespass doesn't apply. Planning Regulations do though.
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#651310 - Fri Sep 02 2011 01:26 PM Re: Famous people and their 'good causes' [Re: romeomikegolf]
Daymare Offline
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Apparently, I misunderstood this part "Many of these sites are perfectly legal, but many are not. There is one in the news now, very close to a small village in Essex, that is a major story. Part of the site was bought by the 'travellers' and planning permission was sought, and given, for a certain number of pitches. Later, a further piece of land was bought and many more permanent pitches were set up illegally. Planning permission was never given because the site was designated as 'green belt'. The local council has been trying to evict these illegals for some time and now has the authority of the High Court to do so."



Edited by Daymare (Fri Sep 02 2011 01:28 PM)

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#651311 - Fri Sep 02 2011 01:33 PM Re: Famous people and their 'good causes' [Re: romeomikegolf]
romeomikegolf Offline

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Let's clarify things. I mentioned 'Gypsies' because that was a stereotype way back when I was a kid, along with several other derogatory names which are still used. There is a true Gypsy/Romany community who live their lives without causing problems for others. It is the so called 'travellers' that think they can use the name the further their own cause without having the background to support it. As I said before, where I used to live in Oxfordshire we had several 'traveller' sites. All of them fixed with water and electricity and 'mobile' homes without any wheels. Several had even built brick structures to house their kids and grannies. As soon as there was a complaint they raised the 'traveller' issue. They accused the locals of racism.
This thread is not about racial background. It's about 'celebrities', long forgotten, looking for a cause to get publicity. Let's face it, until she crawled out of her west London/San Francisco woodwork who realised that Vanessa Redgrave was still alive?
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#651312 - Fri Sep 02 2011 02:11 PM Re: Famous people and their 'good causes' [Re: romeomikegolf]
Daymare Offline
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I did. I like Lynn Redgrave and was reading about her and the article mentioned Vanessa was still around.

I never thought this was about racial background. I thought it was about Vanessa and how she took on a cause I am not certain she knows much about. However, I was curious how people could be evicted from land they own yet not be considered as squatting.


Edited by Daymare (Fri Sep 02 2011 02:23 PM)

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#651342 - Fri Sep 02 2011 05:44 PM Re: Famous people and their 'good causes' [Re: sue943]
ladymacb29 Offline
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Originally Posted By: sue943

I have watched Big Fat Gypsy Weddings and felt sorry for the way they had such problems finding venues etc.


I can't believe the dresses on that show - I wonder how much those weddings really cost!
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#651345 - Fri Sep 02 2011 05:57 PM Re: Famous people and their 'good causes' [Re: ladymacb29]
ren33 Offline
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Quote:
Vanessa needs a hobby. One she knows about and she needs to get off the band wagon just so her name is in print.

This I would not agree with at all. One thing Vanessa Redgrave does not need is for her name to be recognised. She is without doubt one of our most famous and incidentally gloriously talented actors. She does not ever enter into campaigns in order to purposefully gain publicity for herself , nor never has. Even from a young age, when I knew the family and was involved with her brother, she has involved herself in causes dear to her heart and has bravely stood up for them even when scorned, and has stood by her beliefs. So I do not think it correct to say she needs to be noticed.
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#651346 - Fri Sep 02 2011 06:02 PM Re: Famous people and their 'good causes' [Re: Daymare]
Christinap Offline
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I iive less than 5 miles from the Dale Farm site in question here, so feel qualified to comment. To answer your query first Daymare. The land in question is designated green belt. This is land that is not to be built on as it is there to prevent urban sprawl. These people have erected dwellings etc. on green belt land without planning permission, and that is why they are being evicted. There are two halves to this site, one half is a legal designated "gypsy" site and all the properties on that are perfectly legal and not affected by this eviction, the other half has no planning permission and is therefore illegal and this is where the eviction will take place.

Anyone who builds on green belt land without planning permission, which is very hard to come by, will have to demolish the structure and will be evicted, so there is no discrimination against the travellers here, the law is being applied in exactly the same way it would be to anyone else in the UK.

Over the last ten years the amount of trouble these people have caused is unbelievable. Until last October I worked in an office overlooking the local High Street and we witnessed groups of young women coming and going to and from one or more vans, pulling shoplifted items from under their jumpers etc. handing them into the van and then going back for more. We saw fights, often with the police, untaxed vehicles, racial abuse towards women wearing burkhas or headscarves, local shopkeepers too intimidated to demand payment for bags of crisps of sweets taken off the shelves and eaten on the way round the shops. People living near the camp have had bricks through their windows, cars vandalised, sheds and outbuildings set fire to, just for saying in public that the camp should not exist because it is illegal. The local school has no local children in it any more, their belongings were stolen, they were bullied and beaten up if they complained, and if their parents complained they were harassed by the travellers. Teachers have been threatened with violence if they tried to impose discipline. The fly tipping of hazardous waste all over the local area has to be seen to be believed. They don't go into shops in ones of twos, or talk to people on a one to one basis. They go in in groups of 20 or more, if you argue with one of them in moments there are a dozen or more of them surrounding you. They are mainly Irish, not that that is necessarily relevant, and belong, in the main, to two large extended family groups. Illegal goods of various types have been found at the site ranging from sofas from China that are a fire hazard to smuggled cigarettes, drugs and even illegal immigrants smuggled in.

Do not be fooled by what you see on TV. Have you noticed it is only the women that are appearing, none of the men. They are not a peaceful gentle and wise community, they have thieved, fought robbed and mugged their way over this area for the last ten years and everyone will be delighted to see the back of them. Unfortunately I cannot see them going without a fight and rent a mob protestors are already moving in.

As a contrast there is another smaller group of travellers on a site about half a mile from us, and they have currently applied for legal status which is currently with the planning Inspector. They are different in every way. The site is clean and tidy, no fly tipping, their children attend the local school with no problems at all. I've had them do some heavy gardening work for me and they did a fantastic job, really nice people to have around. They completely and publicly disassociate themselves from the Dale Farm residents and are actually worried that they will be tarred with the same brush and loose a lot of local work because of it.

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#651353 - Fri Sep 02 2011 07:07 PM Re: Famous people and their 'good causes' [Re: ren33]
Daymare Offline
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Registered: Thu Dec 23 2010
Posts: 84
Originally Posted By: ren33
Quote:
Vanessa needs a hobby. One she knows about and she needs to get off the band wagon just so her name is in print.

This I would not agree with at all. One thing Vanessa Redgrave does not need is for her name to be recognised. She is without doubt one of our most famous and incidentally gloriously talented actors. She does not ever enter into campaigns in order to purposefully gain publicity for herself , nor never has. Even from a young age, when I knew the family and was involved with her brother, she has involved herself in causes dear to her heart and has bravely stood up for them even when scorned, and has stood by her beliefs. So I do not think it correct to say she needs to be noticed.


That is the good thing about opinions. We each have our own.

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#651354 - Fri Sep 02 2011 07:09 PM Re: Famous people and their 'good causes' [Re: Christinap]
Daymare Offline
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Originally Posted By: Christinap
I iive less than 5 miles from the Dale Farm site in question here, so feel qualified to comment. To answer your query first Daymare. The land in question is designated green belt. This is land that is not to be built on as it is there to prevent urban sprawl. These people have erected dwellings etc. on green belt land without planning permission, and that is why they are being evicted. There are two halves to this site, one half is a legal designated "gypsy" site and all the properties on that are perfectly legal and not affected by this eviction, the other half has no planning permission and is therefore illegal and this is where the eviction will take place.

Anyone who builds on green belt land without planning permission, which is very hard to come by, will have to demolish the structure and will be evicted, so there is no discrimination against the travellers here, the law is being applied in exactly the same way it would be to anyone else in the UK.


Thank you, Christinap. I now understand.

I am done here.


Edited by Daymare (Fri Sep 02 2011 07:10 PM)

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#651381 - Sat Sep 03 2011 05:41 AM Re: Famous people and their 'good causes' [Re: Daymare]
romeomikegolf Offline

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Christinap, although it takes the topic away from it's title I'm glad you posted. I feel we can discuss this issue without getting in to racial issues. It is a problem that many communities across the UK have a problem with. Gypsies/Romany have a cultural identity that is recognised. The people causing the problems on these sites cannot claim to be either. They are itinerants that flout the law at every opportunity. Back in Oxfordshire, at least the part I lived in, the vast majority of crime was down to these 'travellers'. they give true Romany a really bad name.
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#651382 - Sat Sep 03 2011 05:54 AM Re: Famous people and their 'good causes' [Re: romeomikegolf]
Christinap Offline
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Thank you. I don't see it as a racial issue in any shape or form. It is a question of are they breaking the law, yes, should the law apply equally to everyone, yes. If they were allowed to stay then anyone who builds anything on greenbelt land without planning permission has the precedent of Dale Farm to point to as to why it should not be demolished. If you allow that then greenbelt will disappear completely in ten years or less.

I wish people like Ms Redgrave, and the two local Bishops who also gave their support to the travellers this week, would stop and consider the whole issue before sticking their oar in. Doubtless they meant well but they have enraged local residents who do comply with the law.

Interestingly an investigation carried out by our local paper a couple of years ago revealed that many of them have houses, other properties and businesses in other parts of the Country as well as back in Ireland.

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#651384 - Sat Sep 03 2011 06:21 AM Re: Famous people and their 'good causes' [Re: Christinap]
Tizzabelle Offline
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I wonder if Ms Redgrave, the bishops spoken of above or any of the other hand wringers would be so bothered if the people involved were old-fashioned WASPS? Somehow I doubt it.

A few years ago Pink (the rock star) spoke against Australian farmers and the practice of mulesing. Ok, it's not a nice practice but it prevents the incredible distress and death of a sheep if it becomes fly-blown. She was approached by PETA and told of the practice. When she denounced it (and by mistake all of Australia) she was then approached by people who knew the entire story. To her credit she publicly retracted her previous remarks and apologised. She admitted she hadn't done enough research and she meant no harm to the farmers as she herself comes from a rural community. She said she'd learnt a lesson about researching a subject before making pronouncement. I'm not totally sure her her apology didn't have something to do with the concert tour of Oz she was about to launch but benefit of the doubt has to be given. smile

I also remember an Aussie singer who was asked what they thought of the South African situation (meaning apartheid). The response? "I think they should stop killing the rhinos." Proof that celebrity doesn't necessarily correlate with awareness. The celeb shall remain nameless as I can't find proof of the moment yet so I won't besmirch a good name in case my memory is faulty. wink
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#651663 - Mon Sep 05 2011 04:57 PM Re: Famous people and their 'good causes' [Re: Tizzabelle]
Christinap Offline
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Loc: Essex UK
Basildon Council have announced that evictions will start on September 19th. Local landowners have already erected barricades to stop unauthorised incursion onto open spaces, and it is feeling quite tense round here. Everyone is waiting for something to happen. The police have said they are expecting anything up to 1000 extra protestors, many of them from known anarchy groups, to be at the site by eviction day, and already barricades are being built there. Unfortunately I cannot see this ending without violence. I do feel sympathy for the people on the legal half of the site. In the main their relationships with the local community have been quite good over the years but they are being dragged into this whole affair, partly because you have to go through the legal half to get to the illegal part of the site, and partly because many of those to be evicted are their relatives. They however will still be here when the dust has settled, and they are going to face something of an up-hill struggle to repair local relationships.

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#656206 - Sat Sep 24 2011 12:30 PM Re: Famous people and their 'good causes' [Re: Daymare]
lesley153 Offline
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Registered: Fri Sep 07 2007
Posts: 724
Loc: Bedford England UK           
Originally Posted By: Daymare
I thought it was about Vanessa and how she took on a cause I am not certain she knows much about.
I don't think she does either. She's probably just seen a bit of bleeding heart publicity. She's already clambered on a much larger bandwagon I don't believe she understands, and I don't think she needs another one, unless she's looking for a cause that won't make her so unpopular in Hollywood.

I know she's regarded as exceptionally gifted, but I've never enjoyed watching her. This isn't new. I saw her in "Blow-up" and wondered what she was doing in it. I also saw her as Rosalind and couldn't bear to watch it. She was almost gurning, and I found it very unpleasant. Just me, then?
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#656228 - Sat Sep 24 2011 03:56 PM Re: Famous people and their 'good causes' [Re: lesley153]
supersal1 Offline
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I live not a million miles away from Christinap and totally agree with everything she said. Imagine a builder erecting three or four times the number of houses he was granted permission for - the council would have bulldozed them years ago and sent him the bill.

The travellers are a law unto themselves and seem virtually untouchable. A friend of mine who is a driving instructor will not book her pupils into the Basildon centre for their driving tests, she takes them miles away. Apparently the travellers took a dim view every time one of their number failed their test, and laid in wait along the test route. When they spotted a car with an examiner on board pull up at a junction, they'd rush out and bodily upend the car. Witnesses - a couple of very shocked drivers, against a gang twenty or more people who all swore they were somewhere else at the time.

The news stories show a distinct lack of local people presenting their side of things, mainly because they are terrified of reprisals. I think the likes of Vanessa Redgrave should put up with having human excrement disposed of over her garden fence, having grandchildren bullied out of school and a host of other unpleasantness before they poke their noses into arguments that are simply nothing to do with them.

However, regardless of whether the travellers are a bunch of thieves and rogues, or a bunch of quiet, peace-loving people who contribute to the local community, I hope that Basildon Council succeed in evicting them. Otherwise, mob rule wins and that is something I couldn't stomach.

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#656322 - Sun Sep 25 2011 02:54 AM Re: Famous people and their 'good causes' [Re: supersal1]
mehaul Offline
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Is a Traveller the same thing as a Tinker?

What happened on September 19th?
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#656425 - Sun Sep 25 2011 11:00 AM Re: Famous people and their 'good causes' [Re: mehaul]
Christinap Offline
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Traveller is pretty much the same thing as Tinker, although in the good ol day tinkers travelled, and these days travellers don't.

On Sept 19th the travellers got a last minute injunction to stop the eviction. They completly flat footed the Council who didn't even have anyone in court to put their side. That was last Monday. It went back to the court again on Friday with the Council putting their side, and the judge has said he will give his verdict on Monday possibly, or possibly not until Wednesday or Thursday. In the meantime the travellers are now seeking permission for a full judicial review, the baliffs and police and council workers are all on standby, at an ever rising cost to local taxpayer. Quite a few travellers who had left Dale Farm have come back, and more "Supporters" are also arriving to strengthen barricades and help resist the eviction should it ever actually happen.

So, 10 years of legal battles, lord alone knows how much money, and it appears that we are actually nowhere nearer actually evicting these people than we were on day one. It has descended into complete farce and the local residents are beyond furious with the Council for apparently bungling it at the last minute. The injuntion all hinges on Council eviction documents being inaccurate and incorrect in several details, and if that is right then they should all start looking to resign.

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#656443 - Sun Sep 25 2011 12:44 PM Re: Famous people and their 'good causes' [Re: Christinap]
Emma058 Offline
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Registered: Tue Apr 24 2007
Posts: 222
Loc: Ontario Canada
It is interesting reading these posts. Presently, there is a series on one of tv stations titled, "Travellers". It is exactly that portraying the life of the "Travellers". What the show also broadcasts are how there weddings are done, and how many businesses do not want to do business with them.
From what I can see, this group of people are no more than what we term as "squatters". Are the British laws not enforceable against "squatters?".

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