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#788889 - Tue Apr 24 2012 12:41 PM Guillen vs The Pope!
mehaul Offline
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Registered: Wed Feb 03 2010
Posts: 5250
Loc: Florida USA
Fifty years ago, when Castro took over Cuba and instituted a Communist Dictatorship, he tried to close down the Catholic Faith there, forcing many into fleeing the country. The Pope then (I think it was John XXIII) excommunicated him. A month ago the current Pope, Benedict XVI, went to Cuba and met with Castro. Two weeks later, those very same religious exiles in Miami turn on Ozzie Guillen for saying Castro is remarkable for having lasted so long. Are these people really mad at the pope and taking it out on Ozzie?

Background: Ozzie Guillen, after a distinguished career as a player, is the current manager of the Miami Marlins, a Major League Baseball team. The Pope is the guy who wears anachronous head gear.
Many Cuban exiles in Miami have vowed to boycott the Marlins' games in their brand new statium because of what Ozzie said. Yet, they still go to church on Sunday.


Edited by mehaul (Tue Apr 24 2012 02:51 PM)
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#805509 - Sat Jun 30 2012 05:47 PM Re: Guillen vs The Pope! [Re: mehaul]
flem-ish Offline
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First time I hear the Pope described as "the guy
who wears anachronous headgear". Doesn't the Queen of the UK wear anachronous headgear too time and again? And, no I don't mean her favourite style of hat. There must be some European monaarchs that also qualify as 'guys with
remarkable headgear'. And bishops don't seem to have adapted to modern gentlemen's fashion either.
And what about the Mullahs. Or do we believe that "clothes make people"?

I also wonder why a Pope would have to abstain from talking to other Head of States because they may not be on such very good terms mutually. Aren't there rumours that Jesus even talked to the
Pharisees,to Pilate etc. ? Have you ever changed anybody's mind by refusing to talk?
By the way it's not the head gear that matters.
I think the Catholic Pope has enough brains not to be treated as just an individual with odd head gear.
You may disagree with him about a number of things, but he is well versed in the subjects that matter to him.
"Interfering" in politics is not forbidden, especially not when it's done in an open,and frank way.

Wondering if Mr Assange had any news about the Vatican diplomacy. That would interest me more than what head gear the Pope covers his brain with.

As to Fidel Castro: what's wrong with noticing that he is one of the longest ruling politicians
of our age? Moreover it does not prove that it was a good thing he survived so long.
What matters is: can the U.S. and Cuba ever settle their differences.If not, why not. If yes, how can they?

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#805588 - Sat Jun 30 2012 10:33 PM Re: Guillen vs The Pope! [Re: flem-ish]
mehaul Offline
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Registered: Wed Feb 03 2010
Posts: 5250
Loc: Florida USA
The point was the treatment Ossie Guillen got in Miami. Why revisit the topic after more than a month has passed and turn it into a pro-Pope tirade? Ozzie wears a ball cap, very up-to-date. The Pope's mitre went out of style a millenia ago.

A regular person sees no problem with the Pope visiting Castro. heck, de-ex-communicating him, forgiving his sins and performing last rights for him. Doesn't take someone else's place in the great reward hereafter. The point was that the folks in Miami felt those things wrong and possibly took it out on Ozzie.

Castro is no longer a ruling politician.

Who is Mr. Assange?

The Pope is often referred to as the guy with the funny hat.

So, the premise was that Ozzie Guillen was maltreated by the Cuban exiles in Miami for expressing the very views you did above: There's nothing wrong with visiting a former head of a Catholic state. The question remains: Were those exiles too harsh in their treatment of Guillen, the baseball guy in the newest MLB cap?
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#805596 - Sat Jun 30 2012 11:19 PM Re: Guillen vs The Pope! [Re: mehaul]
flem-ish Offline
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Registered: Thu Oct 11 2001
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Loc: Belgium
Pro-Pope tirade? Re-visit?
Who says I had seen this remark of yours before yesterday late.
Who says I have a quarrel with your point of view?
I suppose your interpretation of those guys 'taking it out on O.G." when in reality they are angry with the Pope is correct.
My point is that from a European point of view ( not a "Catholic" point of view, and definitely not an anti-US point of view either) it's remarkable that nobody seems to care very much
about the Cuban-American quarrel remaining unsolved.
If the previous Pope could play a role in the dissolution of the Soviet-bloc why could the present one not play a role in the transition to the post-Fidel era.

Julian Assange is world-wide better known than Ozzie Guillen. Which shows how difficult is to
exchange views from opposite sides of the herring-pond.
I just wonder what happens "behind closed doors" when a Pope visits another Head of State. May be that is what those Cuban exiles are afraid of.

Anyway my message was neither "pro" nor "anti" just wondering beyoond the perspective of caps and mitres. Tiaras are out already.

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#805598 - Sat Jun 30 2012 11:57 PM Re: Guillen vs The Pope! [Re: flem-ish]
mehaul Offline
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Registered: Wed Feb 03 2010
Posts: 5250
Loc: Florida USA
From Wikipedia:
Quote:
Oswaldo José "Ozzie" Guillén Barrios (Spanish pronunciation: [ɡiˈʎen]; born January 20, 1964) is a Venezuelan-American former Major League Baseball player and current manager of the Miami Marlins.[1] He managed the Chicago White Sox from 2004 to 2011.
Note: Venezuela's close ties with Cuba.

The last Pope (John Paul II?) visited Cuba about a decade ago and made a point not to meet with Castro. So the change of heart (soul?) by the current Pope has to have acted as a hill of fire ants under the exiles. Since they cannot badmouth the leader of their faith...

I anticipate thawing of relations between the two countries (perhaps Canada can intercede?). To have treated our neighbor as we have for the past half century should be a lesson taught in clown school on how not to get laughs. Yet Castro himself invited most of that attitude by his overly friendly association during the cold war with the USSR.

Just don't take it out on the Miami Marlins fer cripes sake. The love of baseball is one common element the two countries share.
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#805599 - Sun Jul 01 2012 12:45 AM Re: Guillen vs The Pope! [Re: mehaul]
flem-ish Offline
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Registered: Thu Oct 11 2001
Posts: 319
Loc: Belgium
I can perfectly well follow your point of view.
As to baseball that's a sport I don't know anything about apart from having read a "novel"(?) in which it plays some major role. All I can remember is that it was by a Father Jesuit of the name of Finn and the young hero in the story was called Lightfoot.
Why somebody recommended that book to me I don't remember, but I hadn't learned any English yet and I read the book in French translation.
Glad to hear baseball is something both countries still have in common.May-be some "table-tennis"/"baseball" diplomacy might be helpful to change the mood between the two countries. Lots better than "missile"-diplomacy.
My " hidden" point remains that Internet can be quite helpful for people to see how different backgrounds cause different interpretations.

By the way Julian Assange is an Ozzie too, though my teachers would have reprimanded me for not spelling the word as "Aussie".

The phenomennon of people attacking X because you have a bone to pick with Y is well known here too ( here being the other side of the herring pond). Isn't there any psychologist in the Chamber who can tell me if this phenomenon has a name?

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#805626 - Sun Jul 01 2012 06:19 AM Re: Guillen vs The Pope! [Re: flem-ish]
mehaul Offline
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Registered: Wed Feb 03 2010
Posts: 5250
Loc: Florida USA
Transference neurosis
Identified by Freud as when a patient 'transfers' feelings about some individual from their past onto the psychologist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transference_neurosis


Edited by mehaul (Sun Jul 01 2012 11:00 AM)
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#805648 - Sun Jul 01 2012 09:42 AM Re: Guillen vs The Pope! [Re: mehaul]
flem-ish Offline
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Registered: Thu Oct 11 2001
Posts: 319
Loc: Belgium
Thank you. Very helpful. I was just translating an American textbook on hippotherapy. The term occurs in it.I had no clue what it meant in practice. The one you would like to attack is out of reach for some reason or other, and you find a substitute.
Must be as common as projection. Something like blaming the US, when some world problem does not get solved because the Russians don't want to cooperate?
Must tell this to a certain friend of mine with reference to the Syrian situation.

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#806871 - Thu Jul 05 2012 02:50 PM Re: Guillen vs The Pope! [Re: flem-ish]
sue943 Offline

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About time to close this down, if you wish to have a two person debate(?) you can always use the messaging system.
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