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#830780 - Wed Oct 10 2012 08:11 PM Re: About the CHAMP Classification [Re: jabb5076]
Buddy1 Offline
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Registered: Wed Oct 15 2008
Posts: 664
Loc: Arkansas USA
I sort of agree with this, mainly with jabb5076. I've never quite understood why people play games in which they are already a champion when there are so many other games and quizzes they can play. If it's to get a badge, I understand; if it's to get points, then why not play other games? I rarely play "Who's the Expert?" categories I've already won, unless it's required (for example, The Great Quiz Race or Daily Challenges).

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#830781 - Wed Oct 10 2012 08:13 PM Re: About the CHAMP Classification [Re: Terry]
AntonLaVey Offline
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Registered: Sat May 03 2008
Posts: 890
Loc: California USA
Originally Posted By: Terry
A good solution is to create a second "standings chart" that sorts standings by other criteria... level, time on the site, etc. And have it sortable, so that you can compare and compete against whatever players you think best represents "fair competition".

That is something I can add someday to our hourly / daily games, although it is a bit of a project.


Good solution? Maybe. If it is, it isn't the best solution. There will come a time when people complain about how it is unfair yet again. How many times can you make it easier for some people before it becomes too watered down?

The best solution is to just ditch all ELO ratings and make all Champ divisions like Who Am I is now. Multiple sets and no ELO.

ELO serves no purpose anyway, and it might even make the server run that much smoother.

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#830784 - Wed Oct 10 2012 09:11 PM Re: About the CHAMP Classification [Re: Buddy1]
looney_tunes Offline
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Registered: Tue Jan 20 2009
Posts: 2814
Loc: Briar Hill Victoria Australia 
Originally Posted By: Buddy1
I sort of agree with this, mainly with jabb5076. I've never quite understood why people play games in which they are already a champion when there are so many other games and quizzes they can play. If it's to get a badge, I understand; if it's to get points, then why not play other games? I rarely play "Who's the Expert?" categories I've already won, unless it's required (for example, The Great Quiz Race or Daily Challenges).

Some people play them just because they love that game, and it is one of their favorite activities here. Then, for the games that count towards team scores, there are those who play them to get points for their team.
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#830856 - Thu Oct 11 2012 06:37 AM Re: About the CHAMP Classification [Re: Terry]
seadancer Offline
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Registered: Mon Feb 13 2012
Posts: 211
Loc: New York USA
Originally Posted By: Terry
A good solution is to create a second "standings chart" that sorts standings by other criteria... level, time on the site, etc. And have it sortable, so that you can compare and compete against whatever players you think best represents "fair competition".
That is something I can add someday to our hourly / daily games, although it is a bit of a project.


I'm wondering if a solution would be to somehow make it possible for Champs, who aren't performing well over a period of time, to be automatically taken out of the Champ classification and moved down.

BTW, I'm only interested in this because one of my team members mentioned his frustration at finding himself in the unhappy predicament of becoming a Champ by a fluke, and then always being among the lowest scorers. It can't be fun to be always spinning one's wheels. ---Sea

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#830867 - Thu Oct 11 2012 08:31 AM Re: About the CHAMP Classification [Re: seadancer]
salami_swami Online   sick
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Registered: Thu Nov 01 2007
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Once you're a champ, your score really doesn't matter, unless you are working on your ELO rating. The champs division is the best of the best, and if you get there, somehow, with a fluke win (and I've done that myself a few times), consider yourself honored to be fighting in the champs division. You are the best of the best right alongside with them.

I will agree with Anton; we do not want to make games constantly easier. Besides, why make the champs division easier? What's the incentive? You've already won the category, or the badge. There's no point in making it easier, in my opinion.

If there is going to be a solution, the best is Terry's solution. I do not at all want to get rid of ELO, and I don't think it's quite possible to remove someone from the champ division. If they qualify for being in the champ, they are a champ; you cannot have all the badges in a game, or a category win in expert, and not be a champ (unless it also removes your original win, but I foresee far too many problems with that).
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#830873 - Thu Oct 11 2012 09:51 AM Re: About the CHAMP Classification [Re: salami_swami]
malik24 Offline
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Registered: Fri Sep 14 2007
Posts: 96
Loc: Somerset UK
To be a Champ you must at least be reasonably good -- it's not entirely a fluke, except for maybe certain Expert categories where everyone guesses.

The downside is it makes winning some Daily Challenges harder... the upside is it gives you better opponents to encourage you to up your game.

I say this as a generally low placing gamer in the Who Am I? Hard game -- yes, I knew it would be harder having won the monthly through playing the Easy variant, and yes, I knew I would be rubbish at the hard one. But I also know that I will improve over time, as I started out bad at the Easy version initially too. Positive out of a negative.

There is no reason to feel bad about being bottom of the Champs either ... think of it as a "worst of the best" type thing.

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#830874 - Thu Oct 11 2012 09:59 AM Re: About the CHAMP Classification [Re: malik24]
salami_swami Online   sick
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Thanks for that post, Malik, it was very nice. I completely agree with you. I especially like the "worst of the best" part. I'd rather be the worst of the best than the best of the worst. smile
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#830875 - Thu Oct 11 2012 10:05 AM Re: About the CHAMP Classification [Re: AntonLaVey]
Buddy1 Offline
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Registered: Wed Oct 15 2008
Posts: 664
Loc: Arkansas USA
Originally Posted By: looney_tunes
Originally Posted By: Buddy1
I sort of agree with this, mainly with jabb5076. I've never quite understood why people play games in which they are already a champion when there are so many other games and quizzes they can play. If it's to get a badge, I understand; if it's to get points, then why not play other games? I rarely play "Who's the Expert?" categories I've already won, unless it's required (for example, The Great Quiz Race or Daily Challenges).

Some people play them just because they love that game, and it is one of their favorite activities here. Then, for the games that count towards team scores, there are those who play them to get points for their team.

I never thought about team scores. I've never cared about my team score (except on team games) and my team doesn't make a big deal about it, so that never crossed my mind.

Originally Posted By: AntonLaVey
The best solution is to just ditch all ELO ratings and make all Champ divisions like Who Am I is now. Multiple sets and no ELO.

ELO serves no purpose anyway, and it might even make the server run that much smoother.

I agree. I don't care about ELO, I'm not sure how it's calculated or what it is, and it wouldn't matter to me if it was deleted.

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#830877 - Thu Oct 11 2012 10:29 AM Re: About the CHAMP Classification [Re: Buddy1]
CliftonClowers Offline
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Registered: Sat Feb 12 2011
Posts: 24
Loc: Ohio USA
ELO It's a living thing.

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#830878 - Thu Oct 11 2012 10:36 AM Re: About the CHAMP Classification [Re: CliftonClowers]
rossian Offline
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Registered: Sat Jun 10 2006
Posts: 1326
Loc: Merseyside UK 
It's a terrible thing to lose (to continue the theme).

To get back to reasons Champs continue to play - we enjoy testing ourselves. Winning the badges, though enjoyable, is not why I play and I played the quizzes before badges existed and continue to play. There are people I target, depending on the game, in the hope of beating themn. This rarely happens, but it makes it even more enjoyable when I do. Malik makes a great point there - the champions division is the elite and you should be proud to be in it.
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#831018 - Thu Oct 11 2012 08:00 PM Re: About the CHAMP Classification [Re: salami_swami]
seadancer Offline
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Registered: Mon Feb 13 2012
Posts: 211
Loc: New York USA
To salami_swami from seadancer:

I did not suggest that we make the Champs Division easier.

I suggested that Champs who aren't performing well over a period of time might be automatically (or at their request) taken out of the Champ classification and moved down.
---Sea


Edited by seadancer (Thu Oct 11 2012 08:04 PM)

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#831020 - Thu Oct 11 2012 08:15 PM Re: About the CHAMP Classification [Re: seadancer]
seadancer Offline
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Registered: Mon Feb 13 2012
Posts: 211
Loc: New York USA
BTW, I am under the impression that the questions asked in the Champs Division are more difficult than the questions asked in other divisions.
Is that the case? ---Sea

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#831022 - Thu Oct 11 2012 09:09 PM Re: About the CHAMP Classification [Re: seadancer]
looney_tunes Offline
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Registered: Tue Jan 20 2009
Posts: 2814
Loc: Briar Hill Victoria Australia 
At least in most games, the questions are the same, the competition is more difficult. So you can get the same scores, but your name shows up lower (often, for me, MUCH lower) in the table of results.
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#831024 - Thu Oct 11 2012 09:34 PM Re: About the CHAMP Classification [Re: looney_tunes]
kyleisalive Online   FT-cool
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Registered: Mon Mar 07 2005
Posts: 5383
Loc: Toronto, Canada, eh!
Quote:
I suggested that Champs who aren't performing well over a period of time might be automatically (or at their request) taken out of the Champ classification and moved down.


This could potentially be very unfair, in my opinion as there would be nothing stopping front-runners from dropping down into the lower divisions and dominating all over again. They'd either need to slack for a little bit (which is completely doable with high ELO ratings) or simply ask to go lower.

In most games it wouldn't be fair though-- these people would have monthly badges signifying their proficiency in the game over a long period of time. Would it be fair to put some of the highest scorers back down with the first-timers?
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#831026 - Thu Oct 11 2012 09:54 PM Re: About the CHAMP Classification [Re: kyleisalive]
zorba_scank Offline
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Registered: Tue Feb 20 2007
Posts: 1691
Loc: Mumbai India
Honestly, there doesn't seem to be any end to this. Earlier there was just one set. Then people started complaining that the top ranked players, mostly those who had been on the site for long, were winning all the time making the games frustrating for new comers. So we had the different divisions based on player levels. Complaints again started that players who had won all the badges were still playing and making it difficult for others to win the badges. That led to the Champions division - once you had all the badges that could be won in the game, you were moved here (I think this is true for all games except the Who Am I? but I'm not certain). Now again there is a problem with the ELO ratings.

My suggestion is to just ignore the ratings. Personally, my performance swings wildly in most games (except for Who Am I? where I'm almost always at the bottom), so my rating is at best average though I do manage to win games in most hourlies at least some of the time.

Even if Terry does make changes to address this concern right now, going by the past track record, there will soon be some other aspect that frustrates or annoys players. We'll just have to draw the line somewhere.
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#831027 - Thu Oct 11 2012 10:11 PM Re: About the CHAMP Classification [Re: zorba_scank]
kyleisalive Online   FT-cool
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Registered: Mon Mar 07 2005
Posts: 5383
Loc: Toronto, Canada, eh!
Originally Posted By: zorba_scank
Honestly, there doesn't seem to be any end to this. Earlier there was just one set. Then people started complaining that the top ranked players, mostly those who had been on the site for long, were winning all the time making the games frustrating for new comers. So we had the different divisions based on player levels. Complaints again started that players who had won all the badges were still playing and making it difficult for others to win the badges. That led to the Champions division - once you had all the badges that could be won in the game, you were moved here (I think this is true for all games except the Who Am I? but I'm not certain). Now again there is a problem with the ELO ratings.

My suggestion is to just ignore the ratings. Personally, my performance swings wildly in most games (except for Who Am I? where I'm almost always at the bottom), so my rating is at best average though I do manage to win games in most hourlies at least some of the time.

Even if Terry does make changes to address this concern right now, going by the past track record, there will soon be some other aspect that frustrates or annoys players. We'll just have to draw the line somewhere.


THIS! smile

I think this exactly. It ain't broke.
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#831087 - Fri Oct 12 2012 09:16 AM Re: About the CHAMP Classification [Re: kyleisalive]
reeshy Offline
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Registered: Tue Aug 11 2009
Posts: 741
Loc: Glasgow Scotland UK           
I agree - the competition in the Champs division is more for fun, as there are no badges to be won (with the exception of the mastery badges) for coming out on top. Otherwise, it's mostly bragging rights. smile Rejoice at the fact that you've been good enough to get into the Champs divisions! Relax a little and enjoy the games instead of worrying about the competition smile If you win, that's great, but you're still getting the points for participating, wherever you rank. For me, it's more a competition with myself, trying to get the scores in the game I know I'm capable of, rather than what the best of the best are capable of. Focusing on your own game might allow you to improve enough to beat those top dogs every once in a while, you never know!
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#831092 - Fri Oct 12 2012 09:27 AM Re: About the CHAMP Classification [Re: reeshy]
flopsymopsy Offline
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Registered: Sat May 17 2008
Posts: 2416
Loc: Northampton England UK      
We all have our own targets in the Champs divisions. In my case it's to get as many points for my team as I can and on those rare days when I contribute 200 points to the team total I am just as pleased as I was when I got the individual badges. In Expert though my aim is different - I like to get as many FT points as possible but I don't want to win. I'd rather keep the line on my profile saying I beat 153 other players than replace it with one saying I only beat eight. And yes, those are eight champions but it makes me feel better to have beaten 153. grin
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#831094 - Fri Oct 12 2012 10:22 AM Re: About the CHAMP Classification [Re: flopsymopsy]
salami_swami Online   sick
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Registered: Thu Nov 01 2007
Posts: 7722
Loc: Colorado USA
Even if we attempt to "fix" this problem, a new one will arise. You cannot please everyone all the time.

If we were to rid of the ELO, or champs division altogether, I would not be happy; I like the champs division. Further, everyone would be upset once again for having all the top competitors back in their divisions.

Sometimes it's nice that all the players who never lose are put in their own division. I'd never win Expert if daBomb were in my division again. wink



I still think it's fine as it is.




Seadancer, I was not saying you said to make the champs division easier. I was stating a general statement to all, not to you.


Edited by salami_swami (Fri Oct 12 2012 01:03 PM)
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#831176 - Fri Oct 12 2012 11:20 PM Re: About the CHAMP Classification [Re: salami_swami]
MikeMaster99 Offline
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Registered: Sun Oct 23 2011
Posts: 400
Loc: Melbourne VIC Australia      
I'm with flopsymopsy on this one (and many others too apparently). I simply enjoy the competition of the Champs categories I'm in. If I win, that's great (although rare), if I don't then I''ll try next time. I certainly don't stress about the ELO rankings. If I bring the Tim Tams can I join the comfy corner? (Forget Vegemite, Tim Tams really are a worthy contribution for Aussies to bring to the world palate.)

(I also share abechstein's feelings about 'Who am I?' - the 50,000 point badge for this one's definitely for the very long haul, as I rejoice when I get more than the minimum 30 points per day. But that's OK!)

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#831229 - Sat Oct 13 2012 07:49 AM Re: About the CHAMP Classification [Re: MikeMaster99]
Barbarini Offline
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Registered: Sat Sep 04 2010
Posts: 252
Loc: Alberta Canada
Tim Tams? Did someone say Tim Tams? I'm in!

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#831232 - Sat Oct 13 2012 08:23 AM Re: About the CHAMP Classification [Re: Barbarini]
salami_swami Online   sick
Forum Champion

Registered: Thu Nov 01 2007
Posts: 7722
Loc: Colorado USA
Tim Tams? Delicious. I'll take some. And some coffee, for a Tim tam slam.

They're manufactured and sold in the US too, btw, by Abbot'ssisyer company, Pepperidge Farms. wink

Though no American I've talked to seems to know that. Lol
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People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but *actually* from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint - it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly... time-y wimey... stuff.

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#831234 - Sat Oct 13 2012 08:50 AM Re: About the CHAMP Classification [Re: salami_swami]
flopsymopsy Offline
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Registered: Sat May 17 2008
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Stop talking about Tim Tams! I stopped eating cake, chocolate, and biscuits back in the summer and now I really, really want to p.p.p.pick up a Penguin!
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#831237 - Sat Oct 13 2012 09:18 AM Re: About the CHAMP Classification [Re: flopsymopsy]
salami_swami Online   sick
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Registered: Thu Nov 01 2007
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Loc: Colorado USA
Ooh, penguin.
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#831238 - Sat Oct 13 2012 09:47 AM Re: About the CHAMP Classification [Re: flopsymopsy]
Tizzabelle Online   content
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Registered: Sun Jan 17 2010
Posts: 1986
Loc: Sydney NSW Australia         
Originally Posted By: flopsymopsy
Stop talking about Tim Tams! I stopped eating cake, chocolate, and biscuits back in the summer and now I really, really want to p.p.p.pick up a Penguin!

Have some carrot cake. Bunnies like carrots right? And you get some extra fibre wink
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