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#968586 - Thu Feb 21 2013 09:14 PM Gas and oil banned in Danish houses
satguru Offline
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Registered: Thu Feb 17 2000
Posts: 6239
Loc: Kingsbury London UK           
The British gas banning thread is locked, but unfortunately although that was on the radio and never got confirmation from the authorities either way for Britain, Denmark led the way of banning oil and gas heating from new houses from January the 1st 2013 and from 2016 existing houses needing a replacement. No alternative has been suggested, they have only said what they don't want, and this will affect 65% of homes in the country once fully implemented.

The only consequence I can foresee of this, as they are in the EU, is similar to that of France when they brought in the new top rate of tax and many left the country. Only a few percent of residents were affected there though, many more will be in Denmark, and am guessing the new bridge to Sweden may get a lot of strain in the next few years, as well as an exodus in all other directions. If nothing else after a year or so maybe they'll show an example to everywhere else who may realise the consequences before they chance it rather than after. And it gets damn freezing there in the winter as well.

Denmark break the mould
_________________________
"The climate system is a coupled non-linear chaotic system, and therefore the long-term prediction of future climate states is not possible."

UN IPCC

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#968604 - Thu Feb 21 2013 11:32 PM Re: Gas and oil banned in Danish houses [Re: satguru]
Copago Offline
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Registered: Tue May 15 2001
Posts: 13991
Loc: Australia
So no gas or oil .. is it a choice between wood or electric then?
I would have thought that gas was one of the better options?

I don't think we're allowed to have wood burning heaters here in new homes now.

If Denmark is anything like Norway then I hope they never ban wood heaters ...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...-fireplace.html

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#968649 - Fri Feb 22 2013 03:54 AM Re: Gas and oil banned in Danish houses [Re: satguru]
dippo Offline
Mainstay

Registered: Sat Jun 14 2008
Posts: 562
Loc: London
England UK         
You started this scare-mongering about a ban in the UK, and when challenged, couldn't produce evidence to back it up. You have not, however, retracted your original comments, presumably in the hope that the worries you tried to raise will remain.

You now start similar claims for Denmark. Your source doesn't seem particularly authoritative, and is possibly biased. A document from the Danish Government states that the new oil and gas burning stoves will only be banned from 2016 'in those areas where district heating or natural gas is available'. To me, that is a slightly different proposition from the alarmist claims you are making.

http://www.stateofgreen.com/Cache/StateOfGreen/de/de820d42-73df-4d5f-9b10-f28cac7ee68f.pdf

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#968681 - Fri Feb 22 2013 11:29 AM Re: Gas and oil banned in Danish houses [Re: satguru]
flopsymopsy Offline
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Registered: Sat May 17 2008
Posts: 2414
Loc: Northampton England UK      
I've just skimmed through the document dippo found and frankly I can't see any problem with what the Danes are planning to do. But, in the unlikely event that the Oresund Bridge does get jammed by an exodus of Danes, I'm more than happy to reverse the flow and go to live in Denmark - it's one of the best countries to live in and always scores highly in the "happiest places to live" tables. Plus I'd be able to live closer to Sarah Lund, Birgitte Nyborg, Saga Norén and Martin Rohde, which can't be bad.
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#968725 - Fri Feb 22 2013 06:40 PM Re: Gas and oil banned in Danish houses [Re: dippo]
satguru Offline
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Registered: Thu Feb 17 2000
Posts: 6239
Loc: Kingsbury London UK           
This is from the original article linked to the blog site, unlike the first UK claim I heard on the radio, which was only suggested by the regulations indirectly, and it wasn't my fault British Gas didn't follow through. But the secondary issue of banning it for existing buildings was just a legal ruse to allow it to be extended from the new precedent. But the main claim Denmark has banned oil and gas in their new houses is law, and agree with it or not it's the first in the world and like banning cars from EU city centres Paris began last year limiting the age initially, and London's now going to ban normal cars from the centre from 2020 (unless someone stops it of course).

"As of the 1st of January 2013, the installation of oil-fired boilers and natural gas heating is banned in new buildings in Denmark. Starting 2016, the Danes will also ban the installation of new oil-fired boilers in existing buildings in areas where district heating or natural gas is available. This conversion of heating systems is supported by the Danish government with 42 million DKK (5.6 million Euro) from 2012 to 2015."


A reliable website

While the UK story was incomplete, it is now reality just across the North Sea whether or not our existing building regulations imply it or not (I still don't know either way but we will when the deadline comes) it's now happened. I expect it will nearly all be replaced by electricity as I can't see any alternative, while wood is literally not sustainable on a large scale as it couldn't be replaced as fast as it is used.

I've just discovered Norway are planning to ban new cars altogether in 2015. I wish them the best of luck and remind anyone there they are not EU members so won't be afforded the options to cross borders as Denmark has.

I am shocked (not really)

"(Reuters) - A proposal to ban sales of new gasoline-powered cars in Norway from 2015 could help spur struggling carmakers to shift to greener models, Finance Minister Kristin Halvorsen said Saturday."

Imagine a) Spending over £20,000 on an electric car, b) driving and using the heating in the Norwegian winters and c) Finding a charge point in Lapland.


Edited by satguru (Fri Feb 22 2013 09:22 PM)
_________________________
"The climate system is a coupled non-linear chaotic system, and therefore the long-term prediction of future climate states is not possible."

UN IPCC

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#968748 - Fri Feb 22 2013 10:09 PM Re: Gas and oil banned in Danish houses [Re: satguru]
mehaul Offline
Multiloquent

Registered: Wed Feb 03 2010
Posts: 4841
Loc: Florida USA
With all these aloof bureaucrats deciding the comforts allowed the people under their custodial care, I get a sense of the human condition as described in "Make Room, Make Room!" and we know the movie that followed that dystopia. Here I'd have to paraphrase its title to "Solfuel Green".
_________________________
"...Tomorrow's come a long way to help you."
Tim Davis 'Your Saving Grace' Steve Miller Band (1969)
"...Yesterday's at least a mile back."
Dale Peters 'Dreaming in the Country' James Gang (1971)

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#968765 - Sat Feb 23 2013 03:55 AM Re: Gas and oil banned in Danish houses [Re: satguru]
dippo Offline
Mainstay

Registered: Sat Jun 14 2008
Posts: 562
Loc: London
England UK         
Originally Posted By: satguru

I've just discovered Norway are planning to ban new cars altogether in 2015. I wish them the best of luck and remind anyone there they are not EU members so won't be afforded the options to cross borders as Denmark has.

I am shocked (not really)

"(Reuters) - A proposal to ban sales of new gasoline-powered cars in Norway from 2015 could help spur struggling carmakers to shift to greener models, Finance Minister Kristin Halvorsen said Saturday."

Imagine a) Spending over £20,000 on an electric car, b) driving and using the heating in the Norwegian winters and c) Finding a charge point in Lapland.


More scare-mongering. Norway are not 'planning' to ban the sale of gasoline powered cars. It is a proposal by a small minority party. The very article you quote says that it is not likely to be adopted. I wonder if someone in Scandinavia is quoting the manifesto of the Monster Raving Loony Party as facts about what is going to happen in the UK.

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#968821 - Sat Feb 23 2013 12:24 PM Re: Gas and oil banned in Danish houses [Re: satguru]
satguru Offline
Forum Champion

Registered: Thu Feb 17 2000
Posts: 6239
Loc: Kingsbury London UK           
That was a little extra I discovered on the way, but when you said I was scaremongering about banning gas and oil before I confirmed it was correct, and what worries me far more about the other stories is the clear intention to do away with everything we associate with a civilised and free society- cheap and plentiful energy and freedom of movement, ostensibly for a reason they have no solid evidence for in the first place. We have hundreds of years of coal reserves (which can also be converted to petrol for the same price now) and potentially endless supplies of new gas reserves, we should be expanding the availability of fuel now not rationing it.

On a side note the promise we would have power cuts in the Stern Report has now all but been confirmed by Ofgem when our first set of coal power stations are banned in 2015. That'll help a lot of people won't it. It's not the individual policies which matter as much as the indications (and guarantee for EU car bans ahead) of the future. I already have a neighbour unable to take his children to stay with their grandparents in London each day during the school holidays as they charge to drive there, and that will affect the poor and vulnerable immediately as soon as each of these new policies is adopted. Don't focus on the proposals which may or may not make it, but the motivation of countries across the western world (under the directions of the UN, see Agenda 21, adopted by over 200 countries) to make this the way we all live, the only question is how fast will it happen if left unchallenged. It is because I care about the poor and the vulnerable, the 3000 people who die in Britain every year of hypothermia as they can't afford heating, and the poor who spend the most from their capital on energy compared to everyone else. Don't call me a scaremonger when one by one each story is confirmed to be true like the Danish and Parisian ones, which are just the start of a worldwide set of changes. I've read the proposals straight from the UN and EU, they are not messing around and are not local initiatives, they are operating through the UN and ICLEI which gives the methods on how to implement the proposals from the UN. It's about democracy and if people want to burn wood in their houses as they currently are in Greece and give up their cars then go ahead and vote for them, but while we are in the EU at least there is no vote as they are binding directives, you get fined for breaking them.
_________________________
"The climate system is a coupled non-linear chaotic system, and therefore the long-term prediction of future climate states is not possible."

UN IPCC

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#968827 - Sat Feb 23 2013 01:16 PM Re: Gas and oil banned in Danish houses [Re: satguru]
dippo Offline
Mainstay

Registered: Sat Jun 14 2008
Posts: 562
Loc: London
England UK         
I called you a scaremonger because you posted a story about gas being banned from British homes, but could produce no evidence to support your claim.

You claimed that oil and natural gas heaters were being banned from Danish homes, with no alternatives being offered. I offered government documentation showing that this would only apply in areas where communal heating schemes were available (an alternative).

You claimed that Norway was going to ban conventionally fuelled cars from 2015; it isn't.

However, I don't see much point in continuing this discussion when each time you fail to acknowledge that your claims are erroneous, and simply introduce new claims which are sufficiently vague as to be impossible to argue one way or the other. I hope you're happy in your beliefs.

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#968832 - Sat Feb 23 2013 02:43 PM Re: Gas and oil banned in Danish houses [Re: satguru]
Jabberwok Offline
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Registered: Tue Jun 24 2008
Posts: 415
Loc: Sussex England UK             
Woolly jumpers. I will have a herd of llamas in the garden, knit jumpers from alpaca and llama wool and burn the dung as fuel.
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'The United Kingdom. Slightly smaller than Oregon'
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#968865 - Sat Feb 23 2013 04:23 PM Re: Gas and oil banned in Danish houses [Re: satguru]
satguru Offline
Forum Champion

Registered: Thu Feb 17 2000
Posts: 6239
Loc: Kingsbury London UK           
The only given here is "As of the 1st of January 2013, the installation of oil-fired boilers and natural gas heating is banned in new buildings in Denmark."

I said no alternatives simply as although they have banned oil and gas I saw no references to what they would be using instead, although of course electricity and wood is pretty much it. But the ban on replacements in other houses in 2016 under limited circumstances indicates a possible creep towards a total ban, presumably gradual so as not to frighten off the voters. These sort of measures tend to come in very slowly or people may notice beforehand and do something about it. But I'd say a single ban on gas and oil in new homes in one country is a precedent we may well see like dominoes sooner or later, and as I say, if people want it then that's fine and democratic, but would like people to have a chance to vote on it if that's on the cards anywhere else. Just keep watching elsewhere is all I can recommend people do. One certain example to me is more than enough.
_________________________
"The climate system is a coupled non-linear chaotic system, and therefore the long-term prediction of future climate states is not possible."

UN IPCC

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#978978 - Thu Apr 18 2013 02:25 AM Re: Gas and oil banned in Danish houses [Re: satguru]
Jakeroo Offline
Prolific

Registered: Sat Aug 30 2008
Posts: 1776
Loc: Alberta Canada
Wood is a renewable resource, if practice is put into place, assuming you have enough land to replant as necessary to keep it sustainable. Forests have been burning for eons (and at much greater degrees than in modern times since they were not controllable before firefighting techniques came into play). I'm sorry, but I do not believe that burning wood occasionally is contributing to "global warming". So I think it's good that there seems to be a caveat in place for those countries where there is no READILY available alternative AT THIS TIME.

Of all the marketed "fuels", natural gas is probably more plentiful worldwide and one of the (relatively) more cleaner burning ones (as opposed to coal - which I think pretty much everyone would agree is not the best choice pollution-wise, irrespective of the labourer death tolls). Not to mention cheaper (if the market was allowed to govern itself) since it is, for one thing, easier to get out of the ground, so the "overhead" (including environmental cost) is quite different compared to either oil or oilsands oil. There is not a single (city) home in my province that is not heated by natural gas. Other provinces differ.

There are plenty of alternatives, but people need to be less resistant to change and the politicians need to get out of bed with the oil companies.

Scandanavia is one of the most geothermal active areas in the world. It's quite simple folks. Drill a really deep hole on your property, supplement it with solar/wind power. Yes, right now the initial cost can be expensive (it will get less so as more people get into it), but after that you will pay very little for power to ANYone (and yes you can charge your electric car with these resources - so you don't need to rely totally on "businesses" that will do that for you - in Lapland (or here, for that matter, as I personally know folks here who have built new houses that are totally heated geothermically).

If there are any power/fuel "conspiracies" going on, they're probably happening in North America where there is a considerable vested interest in such things as oil and attempts at alternatives appear to be either squashed at patent applications or new laws are put into place preventing people from producing their OWN energy. It is probable that people like Bush/Gore (or any other multimillionaires) are buying up every available alternative energy patent available. Some people may call it a conspiracy, others would call it a sound business practice (or at the very least, a "hedge bet" lol). Not much point in begrudging the fact if you don't have enough money personally to play the game too ~ : )

Northern Europe, on the other hand, seems, from my point of view (not that that counts for much lol) to be more proactive regarding innovation and willingness to change than we are over here).

New ideas mean new job opportunities. Instead of running scared, perhaps folks should think about starting up battery charging stations or some business that's related to alternatives. If there is a niche, there WILL be a smart person somewhere to fill it : )
_________________________
As much as I love my friends, I won't jump off a bridge WITH them. Instead, I think it's in our mutual interest for one of us to try to catch the other when they fall.

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#978983 - Thu Apr 18 2013 04:52 AM Re: Gas and oil banned in Danish houses [Re: satguru]
Jabberwok Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: Tue Jun 24 2008
Posts: 415
Loc: Sussex England UK             
http://newswatch.nationalgeographic.com/2013/01/04/sweden-needs-more-trash/

Anther key is to reduce the amount of energy a country actually uses, but that involved addressing attitudes and compromising comfort, which is very difficult to change.
Whilst we have oil and gas, the pressure to change isn't enough for most to comply.
I have friends who use solar power and it's enough for their needs.
We have a wood near here that's provided building materials, food and firewood for over 800 years.

Over here in the UK, people are apparently using their cars less, now that fuel is so expensive. £6.38 a gallon or $9.73. So I don't think we''ll see much change until the need becomes pressing.
_________________________
'The United Kingdom. Slightly smaller than Oregon'
CIA World Factbook

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#979206 - Thu Apr 18 2013 08:11 PM Re: Gas and oil banned in Danish houses [Re: satguru]
satguru Offline
Forum Champion

Registered: Thu Feb 17 2000
Posts: 6239
Loc: Kingsbury London UK           
The wood was the alternative quoted by those advocating the banning of assorted fossil fuel types, as although solar and wind also exist, you try running a hospital on them. It hasn't been tried yet although I have no idea why.

In fact no solar or wind has been tested by the public, as it isn't stand alone. Of course that's because it can't, the figures are very well known by the insiders and can be found if you work hard enough. Sunlight is 25 times weaker after passing through our atmosphere and basically once you get above the level of calculators and road signs are there for subsidies. The power they produce is intermittent and absent at night when most required, and always will be. The storage is in its infancy and incredibly expensive, assuming you actually produce enough during the day to have any left over at night. Wind turbines are even worse as overall they can't make a profit. Why not?

1) Electrical input is required for the brakes, motors and heaters.
2) Another power station must back it up permanently, which costs money whether being drawn on or not.
3) Storage is even less viable than solar as not attached to specific units on buildings.
4) The new wiring grid alone (especially offshore parts and labour) takes years to be covered by any power added.
5) Maintenance on offshore units costs more than any other known technology.

For both, the actual power generated is lost in the mix, as customers do not use them alone, but receive a random dribble of power from solar which is measured on their meter readings, assuming it's possible to work out without a mathematician's help, while the wind figures are measured and published independently and without even removing the input costs (ie power to run them, they need constant electrical power to keep them running and stop them burning out in high winds) and again are only there at all because of subsidies.
If the subsidies were to vanish today the entire wind and solar industry would follow, and if there had never been subsidies in the first place then they would never have existed. Wind is fairly clear, you can't get more out than goes in, the maximum efficiency has maybe another 50% to go, and 50% of zip is slightly more zip. Solar are maybe a few times less efficient than potential, but so far are only there as people think they'll make money from them.

Which leaves wood. Housing developments here and on the continent, set up under local initiatives, attempting to run minus fossil fuel, have tried them all, and if you read the honest brochures and reports can only really work on wood. Pellets, old fashioned stoves, basically returning to the 18th century and earlier, disposing of all the work and development since the industrial revolution, where lighting was by gas before electricity had been invented. But currently we have a population of billions, while before 1850 or so the population was millions. And many of the urban areas created to house all these extra people meant cutting down woods. And not just the fast growing type a small town could conceivably manage on, these new stoves prefer hardwood chips. They take the left over wood chips from builder's merchants, and being slow growing can't provide a supply for more than a small market.

Take away fossil fuel on a large scale (as Europe is doing, we are expected to begin power cuts in a year or two at the moment under current plans) and people will see the results of wind and solar, and rather than freeze will need to burn woods. Until it runs out as there won't be enough trees in Britain to supply the entire country for very long and people in hospitals (unless exempted) will die without power.
_________________________
"The climate system is a coupled non-linear chaotic system, and therefore the long-term prediction of future climate states is not possible."

UN IPCC

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#979225 - Thu Apr 18 2013 09:19 PM Re: Gas and oil banned in Danish houses [Re: satguru]
mehaul Offline
Multiloquent

Registered: Wed Feb 03 2010
Posts: 4841
Loc: Florida USA
One of the drawbacks you cite for solar power can be mostly overcome by an undeveloped utility: Orbital Solar Collector/Transfer satellites. By utilizing microwaves, the power collected at the base efficiency of direct panel exposure to the sun can be efficiently beamed through the atmosphere to receiver stations on the ground. A microwave frequency not absorbed by moisture and Nitrogen can be beamed with little loss in the transfer. Another advantage is that collecting above the atmosphere can occur even when the sun is not above the receiver station increasing the usage from 10 hours a day to 16 hours (relay satellites could even provide 24 hour coverage). Current technology provides for microwave components that can transmit several megawatts of energy from moment to moment. Expensive? Not if put into production on a large scale. The mechanics to power a hospital could cost several million but that would be recovered in savings rather quickly.
_________________________
"...Tomorrow's come a long way to help you."
Tim Davis 'Your Saving Grace' Steve Miller Band (1969)
"...Yesterday's at least a mile back."
Dale Peters 'Dreaming in the Country' James Gang (1971)

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#979401 - Fri Apr 19 2013 07:45 PM Re: Gas and oil banned in Danish houses [Re: satguru]
Jakeroo Offline
Prolific

Registered: Sat Aug 30 2008
Posts: 1776
Loc: Alberta Canada
I love Jabberwock's and mehaul's responses. It doesn't have to be "one way or the highway". Any combination of alternatives is great as I believe there is no one single solution that will cover all needs. Comparing the power requirements of a house or a vehicle to the needs of a hospital or something like a space program is like comparing apples to oranges. Of COURSE, greater needs require different resources and cannot rely on one alone. As a minor "fer instance", the levels of water in Lake Mead have dropped over 40 feet in the last 20 years. People there are aware of this problem and there are new laws instituted for any new hotels regarding water/power usage etc in the Las Vegas region. Probably not a total solution, but definitely a move in the right direction. None of this means that any of us should stop pushing our governments to fix the obvious.

On a personal front, we can only do what we can (or are allowed to by law). I'm not allowed to have a windmill on my property within the city. But that doesn't mean I can't ride my bike to work during clement weather (granted, that's less than 5 months per year in my part of the world LOL), but even "small" efforts have rewards in the "big picture":
a) I use less gasoline so save money
b I pollute less
c) cycling is supposedly good for my health/longevity
d) parking is no problem
e) if someone is going to steal my vehicle, I'd rather it be my bike than my car lol

: )
_________________________
As much as I love my friends, I won't jump off a bridge WITH them. Instead, I think it's in our mutual interest for one of us to try to catch the other when they fall.

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#979964 - Mon Apr 22 2013 03:17 PM Re: Gas and oil banned in Danish houses [Re: satguru]
satguru Offline
Forum Champion

Registered: Thu Feb 17 2000
Posts: 6239
Loc: Kingsbury London UK           
To me it's all very simple. I have a petrol (or diesel) car. It gets me where I need, can be filled up every few miles in a minute or so, and you know almost exactly how far it'll take you and fill up in time to make sure you don't risk running out.

Now if I was given a different car, one which didn't have an exact distance expectation, as it depended on the outside temperature, darkness and whether or not the heat and lights were used to deal with them, and took many hours to recharge when I ran out, without even the alternative to carry a can of fuel if nowhere near a filling station. If an electric car runs out away from home, you've had it, end of.

If I want my house to be heated, then I'll need a constant source of heating. This either means burning fuel of any sort, or relying on a constant stream of water from hydroelectric, or heat from underground boreholes. I don't think I've missed anything out. Otherwise the alternative (which technically does apply equally to hospitals, they only use the identical functions to a house, electrical equipment, heating etc, just on a much larger scale and far greater consequences when cut off) is wind or solar, both weak and intermittent, and known within the industry not to be capable of more than a supplemental role. I like the satellite idea, but is a bit way off and if thorium can be safely and effectively harnessed, along with hydrogen fuel cells will eventually manage to replace some fossil fuel applications, but till we get an alternative which can provide constant and effective power then the rest are burning money with no benefits. It really is that simple, I've read far too many figures for someone not paid or asked to do so and they are made as governments give the companies and users subsidies, so for investment not actual use. I wish I was wrong but the entire 'renewables' sector is a total con. There, I've said it.
_________________________
"The climate system is a coupled non-linear chaotic system, and therefore the long-term prediction of future climate states is not possible."

UN IPCC

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#980043 - Mon Apr 22 2013 11:21 PM Re: Gas and oil banned in Danish houses [Re: satguru]
mehaul Offline
Multiloquent

Registered: Wed Feb 03 2010
Posts: 4841
Loc: Florida USA
High Power Microwave transmission is not the future, it is the past. I personally, two decades ago, was running 10 Megawatts simulated Voltage levels (that was the equivalent voltage but at lower current levels) for certain testing and regularly was witness to the testing of 4 Megawatts of actual amplified power. Crossed fields amplifiers (CFAs) have been a reality for 60 years at the 2 Megawatt level. We have been launching satellites for over 60 years. We have been erecting solar panels in space since Skylab, forty years ago. The dozen solar panels of the International Space Station generate 33 KW each to supply the station's need of half a megawatt. This itself is twenty year old technology (building began in 1993!).


Crossed Field Amplifier (CFA):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossed-field_amplifier

International Space Station (ISS):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISS#Power_and_thermal_control

In view that a space based generator would be hundreds of times less complicated and need only provide for occasional human habitat (the expensive part of the ISS) during repair cycles, the system could be termed money in the bank if implemented.
_________________________
"...Tomorrow's come a long way to help you."
Tim Davis 'Your Saving Grace' Steve Miller Band (1969)
"...Yesterday's at least a mile back."
Dale Peters 'Dreaming in the Country' James Gang (1971)

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#980123 - Tue Apr 23 2013 01:01 PM Re: Gas and oil banned in Danish houses [Re: mehaul]
satguru Offline
Forum Champion

Registered: Thu Feb 17 2000
Posts: 6239
Loc: Kingsbury London UK           
I know Tesla's tower could transmit wireless electricity worldwide, but as there was no way to charge people JP Morgan pulled the funding and the technology was dismantled forever. Here's the latest example (darn good evidence in my opinion) of the actual figures versus the claims for Germany

Germany's 150 billion loss

“They have more than 400 terawatt hours of installed renewable capacity, but its annual output is less than 70TWh, which is why they have had this dash for coal to keep the lights on.”

Their existing tax per megawatt hour is £45, which has all poured into this bottomless pit, while still not reaching Britain's record £50 tax.

Germany is not special here but representative, as their massive use of renewables has been the model for the world, and has produced less than 1/5th of the advertised amount, at a massive cost to each and every citizen. This fiasco is being repeated across the entire EU, and people wonder why we're all in recession, well that's the reason right there.
_________________________
"The climate system is a coupled non-linear chaotic system, and therefore the long-term prediction of future climate states is not possible."

UN IPCC

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