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#996559 - Sun Jul 14 2013 10:16 PM Difficult FITB Questions in Quizzes
daBomb619 Offline
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I know the limit is two to four fill-in-the-blank questions for a ten-question quiz (except for Brain Teasers and a few other exceptions). However, would we be allowed to make a quiz that is all fill-in-the-blank if we were intending for it an incredibly difficult quiz? (The answers wouldn't be difficult to spell, of course, because that wouldn't be fair.) The intention is for the quiz to be played by people who are absolute EXPERTS at a topic, and there would be a warning stating such in the introduction (and probably the title, too). Since they're FITB questions, it would exempt them from appearing in hourly games, which means people won't have to deal with the impossible questions unless they want to.

Is that allowed?


Edited by daBomb619 (Sun Jul 14 2013 10:36 PM)

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#996605 - Mon Jul 15 2013 05:38 AM Re: Difficult FITB Questions in Quizzes [Re: daBomb619]
LadyCaitriona Offline
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Posts: 5544
Loc: Ottawa Ontario Canada         
In general, we do not allow FITBs to be used to intentionally up the difficulty of a quiz. It's possible to make incredibly difficult multiple choice questions, if the author is savvy about the question's phrasing and the incorrect answers selected to accompany the correct one.

With that being said, you'll find out on this site that there can be exceptions to almost anything, if the author has a unique and interesting approach that the editors feel will work within the spirit of the site's guidelines. The best thing you can do is to contact an editor within the category where you intend to submit your quiz with a sample of what you want to write for your quiz and explain why you think that using all-FITB will make the quiz more enjoyable for players.

A general note to authors: If you're thinking about a unique quiz idea that requires rules to be bent, please check with the editors first. We're always willing to work with authors to produce new and interesting quiz ideas, but if it turns out your quiz is unwnorkable within the site's guidelines (or the spirit of FunTrivia) it's best to know beforehand rather than putting all your time and energy into a quiz that we cannot accept.
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#996616 - Mon Jul 15 2013 07:13 AM Re: Difficult FITB Questions in Quizzes [Re: daBomb619]
daBomb619 Offline
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I guess it's not necessarily that I want the quiz to be harder per se; I just don't want people to be able to guess the right answer without knowing it just because they have a 1:4 chance.

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#996626 - Mon Jul 15 2013 10:07 AM Re: Difficult FITB Questions in Quizzes [Re: daBomb619]
kyleisalive Offline
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Keep in mind that reducing the questions from a fighting chance may result in lower ratings from players who have absolutely no idea. A lot of players will jump into quizzes, even if they don't know the topics, and making entire submissions FITB may be next to impossible depending.
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#996637 - Mon Jul 15 2013 11:01 AM Re: Difficult FITB Questions in Quizzes [Re: daBomb619]
daBomb619 Offline
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I care not about ratings. I kind of gave up on them after none of my quizzes that I spent a lot of time working on even cracked the 50th percentile, while the one that I put very little effort into is my highest rated quiz by far (apparently because it's really easy).


Edited by daBomb619 (Mon Jul 15 2013 11:21 AM)

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#996640 - Mon Jul 15 2013 11:45 AM Re: Difficult FITB Questions in Quizzes [Re: daBomb619]
kyleisalive Offline
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Ratings are only one part of it though; based on what we've seen from players, FITB quizzes simply aren't as popular and it usually correlates with the percentages in the quiz and the proposed difficulty level, as well as player ratings.
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#996643 - Mon Jul 15 2013 12:14 PM Re: Difficult FITB Questions in Quizzes [Re: kyleisalive]
daBomb619 Offline
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I don't really care if my quiz isn't as popular as others. I've already experienced that with all my specialty quizzes that hardly anyone seems to play, like the ones I've written for Two Lumps, Fierce Creatures, and My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic.

Fine! I'm gonna go build my own trivia website! With blackjack! And...never mind.

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#996644 - Mon Jul 15 2013 12:17 PM Re: Difficult FITB Questions in Quizzes [Re: daBomb619]
guitargoddess Offline
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Even if you communicate with an editor in the category you're intending to write on and they say, yup I'll accept an all FITB quiz on X topic, keep in mind that there are still other regulations to follow with FITB such as the length of answer (some categories have word limits), how many possible ways the answer could be entered (if you need to add more than say 3 correct answer alternatives, it may not work too well as a FITB answer) and there can be no punctuation (which doesn't simply mean you can omit the punctuation from the answer).

I mean this as a general reminder for FITB, not strictly to you daBomb


Edited by guitargoddess (Mon Jul 15 2013 12:18 PM)
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#996652 - Mon Jul 15 2013 12:53 PM Re: Difficult FITB Questions in Quizzes [Re: daBomb619]
kyleisalive Offline
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Regardless of popularity, there are other ways of making questions difficult without making them FITB. In a lot of cases, if the questions are easy, it just becomes a spelling test, and that's not really the point of trivia, is it?

On the same token, quizzes will always have people who Google the answers, timed or not-- you'll likely, regardless of the quiz, have a number of people scoring perfectly on each quiz, garnering high overall percentages for their profiles and the like in addition to those flopping because they don't get a choice.


I wholly support the use of FITB questions in quizzes, but usually sparingly because of the player reaction I've seen, their lack of use in the site's games, and their (erm...) tendency to not follow the guidelines when they're submitted. :p
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#996670 - Mon Jul 15 2013 02:31 PM Re: Difficult FITB Questions in Quizzes [Re: kyleisalive]
skunkee Offline
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Also bear in mind that FITB questions attract a lot of Correction Notes as players who answer correctly but have their questions marked as incorrect because of a spelling error often feel cheated. I can't count the number of CNs I've seen where the player has said, with varying degrees of irritability, that just because they got one letter wrong they shouldn't lose out on the points.
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#996699 - Mon Jul 15 2013 03:48 PM Re: Difficult FITB Questions in Quizzes [Re: kyleisalive]
daBomb619 Offline
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Originally Posted By: kyleisalive
In a lot of cases, if the questions are easy, it just becomes a spelling test, and that's not really the point of trivia, is it?


That's just it, though. The questions wouldn't be easy. That'd be no fun (For me, anyway). Typically, I've seen people make their easiest questions FITB simply because making the question multiple-choice would be even easier.

Originally Posted By: kyleisalive
On the same token, quizzes will always have people who Google the answers, timed or not-- you'll likely, regardless of the quiz, have a number of people scoring perfectly on each quiz, garnering high overall percentages for their profiles and the like in addition to those flopping because they don't get a choice.


I would be sure to make the questions ungoogleable.

Originally Posted By: kyleisalive
I wholly support the use of FITB questions in quizzes, but usually sparingly because of the player reaction I've seen, their lack of use in the site's games, and their (erm...) tendency to not follow the guidelines when they're submitted. :p


Moi, not follow guidelines? Surely you jest!

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#996731 - Mon Jul 15 2013 05:08 PM Re: Difficult FITB Questions in Quizzes [Re: daBomb619]
kyleisalive Offline
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Quote:
I would be sure to make the questions ungoogleable.


As soon as the quiz becomes a part of the FT Encyclopedia it is readily Google-able.

I've had quizzes accidentally go on with wrong answers in the past still get correct responses for days, weeks, months, mainly because no matter how niche the topic, there will always be players who get 100% by Googling. People have won the Early Bird on my quizzes because they've played them in Flash Mode, backed out at answer 9, and restarted the quiz to get the full score. That doesn't even require Google-- that doesn't even require knowledge-- but it happens because people want the points and that score. Nothing we can stop (and nothing I get fussed over...used to but not anymore; life's too short, so I write quizzes because I enjoy it).


My point is simply that we are in the business of placing quizzes online that are 'fun' for the players, and based on what we know and have seen over the years, all-FITB is not really the way to do that, otherwise we would not have our expectations in place. I don't know what you have in mind for these relatively 'unanswerable questions', but remember that we usually can't accept FITB questions where the answers are colours, numbers above a certain point, dates of any sort, times, quotes longer than a certain length, anything with punctuation, and most things which can be written several different ways by different people, etc etc. We also try to avoid FITB questions which really are nothing more than a spelling test (eg. lengthy names of characters from animes and manga) because even if someone knows exactly who or what the word is, they're penalized for a simple spelling mistake. This can be a nightmare when you have a quiz about Pokemon names or the names of the cast of a Dutch TV show or language variations or even place names.


If you want to make the quizzes difficult, I highly recommend writing them in a way that still makes them difficult (for instance, making the question a bit more specific or ambiguous, depending, with specialized knowledge). This can be done without resorting to minutiae; it just takes a bit more tact. Some of the best quizzes on the site are about specialized topics, but presented in a unique way with a solid amount of info and a certain conciseness, they can find a balance between hard difficulty and player acclaim.


Quote:
Moi, not follow guidelines? Surely you jest!


Wasn't aiming the comment at you-- was referring to the general tendency. FITB generates more corrections in the queue (and out of the queue, I find), than multiple choice or T/F/Y/N.


Edited by kyleisalive (Mon Jul 15 2013 05:09 PM)
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#996737 - Mon Jul 15 2013 05:48 PM Re: Difficult FITB Questions in Quizzes [Re: kyleisalive]
daBomb619 Offline
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Registered: Wed Jul 08 2009
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Originally Posted By: kyleisalive
People have won the Early Bird on my quizzes because they've played them in Flash Mode, backed out at answer 9, and restarted the quiz to get the full score. That doesn't even require Google-- that doesn't even require knowledge-- but it happens because people want the points and that score. Nothing we can stop (and nothing I get fussed over...used to but not anymore; life's too short, so I write quizzes because I enjoy it).


I think that's why Terry changed it so that the Flash Quiz format isn't available until a quiz has been up for an hour.

Originally Posted By: kyleisalive
My point is simply that we are in the business of placing quizzes online that are 'fun' for the players, and based on what we know and have seen over the years, all-FITB is not really the way to do that, otherwise we would not have our expectations in place.


I can't honestly say that what I have in mind would appeal to "general" players, as it were; it would be more for those people who have played all of the quizzes on a certain topic and who are looking for more of a challenge. I know I've felt that way in the past when I have a topic I'm really knowledgeable about but where the hardest question in the hardest quiz is something like, "What's the main character's name?"

Originally Posted By: kyleisalive
I don't know what you have in mind for these relatively 'unanswerable questions', but remember that we usually can't accept FITB questions where the answers are colours, numbers above a certain point, dates of any sort, times, quotes longer than a certain length, anything with punctuation, and most things which can be written several different ways by different people, etc etc.


Of course; I would still follow the FITB guidelines.

Originally Posted By: kyleisalive
We also try to avoid FITB questions which really are nothing more than a spelling test (eg. lengthy names of characters from animes and manga) because even if someone knows exactly who or what the word is, they're penalized for a simple spelling mistake. This can be a nightmare when you have a quiz about Pokemon names or the names of the cast of a Dutch TV show or language variations or even place names.


Like I said in my initial post, I wouldn't make any questions with difficult-to-spell answers or answers with variant spellings.

Originally Posted By: kyleisalive
If you want to make the quizzes difficult, I highly recommend writing them in a way that still makes them difficult (for instance, making the question a bit more specific or ambiguous, depending, with specialized knowledge). This can be done without resorting to minutiae; it just takes a bit more tact. Some of the best quizzes on the site are about specialized topics, but presented in a unique way with a solid amount of info and a certain conciseness, they can find a balance between hard difficulty and player acclaim.


That sounds hard. (I'm kidding, of course. It would technically be hardER, though.)

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#996741 - Mon Jul 15 2013 06:06 PM Re: Difficult FITB Questions in Quizzes [Re: daBomb619]
guitargoddess Offline
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Posts: 35553
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The bottomline is, please talk to a category editor about your specific quiz idea and ask if they'd accept an all FITB quiz. There are some cases where it's allowed and is maybe even the best idea (e.g. I have an all FITB quiz in Humanities that works well because it's based on words that have no vowels except y - the words aren't too difficult, and there are really only so many words I could use as answer options that multiple choice wouldn't work as well), but don't be surprised if the answer is no.
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#996744 - Mon Jul 15 2013 06:28 PM Re: Difficult FITB Questions in Quizzes [Re: daBomb619]
kyleisalive Offline
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Agreed-- we do make exceptions on occasion and your first step is to speak to someone in your specific category. You never know until you try.

Quote:
I know I've felt that way in the past when I have a topic I'm really knowledgeable about but where the hardest question in the hardest quiz is something like, "What's the main character's name?"


Then it shouldn't be hard to increase the difficulty. wink
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#996746 - Mon Jul 15 2013 06:35 PM Re: Difficult FITB Questions in Quizzes [Re: kyleisalive]
daBomb619 Offline
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Originally Posted By: kyleisalive
Agreed-- we do make exceptions on occasion and your first step is to speak to someone in your specific category. You never know until you try.

Quote:
I know I've felt that way in the past when I have a topic I'm really knowledgeable about but where the hardest question in the hardest quiz is something like, "What's the main character's name?"


Then it shouldn't be hard to increase the difficulty. wink


:P

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#996747 - Mon Jul 15 2013 06:39 PM Re: Difficult FITB Questions in Quizzes [Re: daBomb619]
salami_swami Offline
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Didn't Terry a while back change the format that if you start a flash quiz, if you back out and start HTML, it scores you with zero. I occasionally used to click flash by mistake and back out to start HTML (my preferred choice), forgetting the anti cheat feature thing, and score zero for a quiz.
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#996749 - Mon Jul 15 2013 06:46 PM Re: Difficult FITB Questions in Quizzes [Re: daBomb619]
kyleisalive Offline
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Yup-- it was changed a little while ago.
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#996750 - Mon Jul 15 2013 06:54 PM Re: Difficult FITB Questions in Quizzes [Re: daBomb619]
guitargoddess Offline
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But you can still start in Flash, play almost to the end, back out and start again in Flash.
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#996888 - Tue Jul 16 2013 02:24 PM Re: Difficult FITB Questions in Quizzes [Re: daBomb619]
gracious1 Offline
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Originally Posted By: daBomb619
I care not about ratings. I kind of gave up on them after none of my quizzes that I spent a lot of time working on even cracked the 50th percentile, while the one that I put very little effort into is my highest rated quiz by far (apparently because it's really easy).


I feel your pain. I really do. frown
And it's okay not to worry about ratings, but just write about what you want to! Lots of people do that!


Edited by gracious1 (Tue Jul 16 2013 02:24 PM)
Edit Reason: wrong emoticon

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#996893 - Tue Jul 16 2013 02:45 PM Re: Difficult FITB Questions in Quizzes [Re: kyleisalive]
gracious1 Offline
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Originally Posted By: kyleisalive
People have won the Early Bird on my quizzes because they've played them in Flash Mode, backed out at answer 9, and restarted the quiz to get the full score.


DaBomb is correct -- that can't happen anymore because quizzes are released initially in HTML only. I know this for a fact because when I wrote my first quiz I thought there was something when the interactive modes didn't show up, and I wrote an admin about it.

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#996897 - Tue Jul 16 2013 03:05 PM Re: Difficult FITB Questions in Quizzes [Re: gracious1]
kyleisalive Offline
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Loc: Toronto, Canada, eh!
Originally Posted By: gracious1
Originally Posted By: kyleisalive
People have won the Early Bird on my quizzes because they've played them in Flash Mode, backed out at answer 9, and restarted the quiz to get the full score.


DaBomb is correct -- that can't happen anymore because quizzes are released initially in HTML only. I know this for a fact because when I wrote my first quiz I thought there was something when the interactive modes didn't show up, and I wrote an admin about it.


I acknowledged this a few posts back.
I mentioned it to allude to the possible ways players can get 10/10 without much effort. Googling or not.
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#996898 - Tue Jul 16 2013 03:23 PM Re: Difficult FITB Questions in Quizzes [Re: kyleisalive]
gracious1 Offline
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Originally Posted By: kyleisalive
Originally Posted By: gracious1
Originally Posted By: kyleisalive
People have won the Early Bird on my quizzes because they've played them in Flash Mode, backed out at answer 9, and restarted the quiz to get the full score.


DaBomb is correct -- that can't happen anymore because quizzes are released initially in HTML only. I know this for a fact because when I wrote my first quiz I thought there was something when the interactive modes didn't show up, and I wrote an admin about it.


I acknowledged this a few posts back.
I mentioned it to allude to the possible ways players can get 10/10 without much effort. Googling or not.


Okay, I didn't see that? crazy Jus' tryin' to help.

Originally Posted By: guitargoddess
But you can still start in Flash, play almost to the end, back out and start again in Flash.

Okay, if someone does that deliberately, that's an ethical issue, but many times my mischievous cat has trampled my keyboard & caused windows to close, etc. at various points in a quiz, and I'm glad I'm able to start over in that case.

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#996985 - Wed Jul 17 2013 11:00 AM Re: Difficult FITB Questions in Quizzes [Re: daBomb619]
JanIQ Offline
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My previous cat helped typing out questions for some quizzes. Alas, no translation was included.
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#997100 - Wed Jul 17 2013 10:51 PM Re: Difficult FITB Questions in Quizzes [Re: daBomb619]
EnglishJedi Offline
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Registered: Tue Jul 08 2008
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Loc: Southampton England UK    
While we're on the subject of FITB questions, as a quiz solver rather than writer can I put in my vote that this type of question should just be outlawed altogether except for brain teasers. FITB seem to turn many questions into spelling tests. There's nothing more annoying than answering a question correctly but getting it wrong because of a type or spelling error.

M

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