Abu Hamza to be extradited to US

Posted by: sue943

Abu Hamza to be extradited to US - Fri Oct 05 2012 08:21 AM

And about time too.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19842941
Posted by: lesley153

Re: Abu Hamza to be extradited to US - Fri Oct 05 2012 01:45 PM

Seconded. Beats me why it took so long. I mean it's not as if we didn't want him to go.

I'm glad the defence of illness didn't cut any ice. Perhaps we've had enough of "compassionate grounds" with people like Ernest Saunders, Abdelbaset al-Megrahi, Ronnie Biggs...

' But during the hearing, Sir John observed there were "excellent medical facilities in the United States". '
Yes, I'd heard that too! laugh
Posted by: sue943

Re: Abu Hamza to be extradited to US - Fri Oct 05 2012 02:02 PM

Good for him. No other country would have put up with him all these years.
Posted by: lesley153

Re: Abu Hamza to be extradited to US - Fri Oct 05 2012 05:56 PM

All gone! Wave bye-bye.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19853903
Posted by: sue943

Re: Abu Hamza to be extradited to US - Sat Oct 06 2012 05:41 AM

What had me choking in my tea was that one reason they didn't want to be extradited is because they might end up in a supermax prision and what that entails such as a lot of solitary confinment. Oh what a shame. The saying 'If you can do the time then don't do the crime' sort of fits the bill.

How can terrorists complain about punishment being against their human rights? What about the human rights of the people killed, sure the right to life is a hell of a lot more important than the right to chat to other criminals?
Posted by: dsimpy

Re: Abu Hamza to be extradited to US - Sat Oct 06 2012 06:02 AM

Originally Posted By: sue943
... What about the human rights of the people killed, sure the right to life is a hell of a lot more important than the right to chat to other criminals?


I guess the relatives of civilians - men, women, children - killed by American drones in Afhanistan and Pakistan feel much the same about their human rights. I'm sure that creating a demon out of one individual with prosthetic limbs (no matter how upsetting or unsavoury his rhetoric might be) is an attractive tabloid proposition, but it doesn't take us very far in understanding the failed politics that have created so much death in the two countries above, Iraq, Palestine and elsewhere.
Posted by: sue943

Re: Abu Hamza to be extradited to US - Sat Oct 06 2012 06:17 AM

And indeed the relatives of the victims of 9/11 but that is not the point of this thread.
Posted by: dsimpy

Re: Abu Hamza to be extradited to US - Sat Oct 06 2012 07:24 AM

What is the point then Sue? Selectively demonising one individual who's only a very small part of a massive global problem? This is meant to be Fun Trivia Forums, not the front page of The Sun.

I thought politics were supposed to be out of bounds on the chatboards and Forums because of their potential to cause controversy (as indeed they do). But it appears to be okay so long as the views expressed are pro-British or pro-American (and one or two other) governments.

When you're part of making the rules it seems to me you should keep them.
Posted by: sue943

Re: Abu Hamza to be extradited to US - Sat Oct 06 2012 09:17 AM

Quote:
Discussions about news and current events from your neck of the woods and around the world.


It is very much a news item, this person has cost the British taxpayer millions in fighting his extradition and there are a lot of people who are glad that he is finally gone from the UK.
Posted by: lesley153

Re: Abu Hamza to be extradited to US - Sat Oct 06 2012 11:48 AM

Dsimpy, do you know why he lost his hands and an eye? Just checking.

Just as a matter of historical record, there used to be a place called Palestine, but it was renamed Israel in 1948.
Posted by: dsimpy

Re: Abu Hamza to be extradited to US - Sat Oct 06 2012 12:07 PM

Originally Posted By: lesley153
Dsimpy, do you know why he lost his hands and an eye? Just checking.

Just as a matter of historical record, there used to be a place called Palestine, but it was renamed Israel in 1948.


Why or how, Lesley153? Just checking.

Regarding your other comment, it's hard not to have sympathy with the Iranians. (That's a reference to recent events in the news.)
Posted by: lesley153

Re: Abu Hamza to be extradited to US - Sat Oct 06 2012 12:48 PM

He was attempting to make a bomb. It went off before he wanted it to.

How did the Iranians get into this? This man has accepted our hospitality and preached against us. He has lived here and taken out money and preached hatred against us. At long last we are getting rid of him. A simple enough concept - so why are you dragging other, completely irrelevant countries into it?
Posted by: sue943

Re: Abu Hamza to be extradited to US - Sat Oct 06 2012 04:13 PM

Thank you Lesley for bring it back on topic. This will be kept on topic which was purely that at long last he has been extradited. If anything else gets dragged in then the thread will be locked.

Quote:
I thought politics were supposed to be out of bounds on the chatboards and Forums because of their potential to cause controversy (as indeed they do). But it appears to be okay so long as the views expressed are pro-British or pro-American (and one or two other) governments.

When you're part of making the rules it seems to me you should keep them.


Firstly this isn't the chat boards, politics are definitely banned there and they are in the capable hands of Bob. In the forums there is no ban on posting a news item even if it is political, what is banned it deliberately turning, or attempting to turn a thread into a controversial one and to allow it to get heated. Heated gets a thread closed, always has, always will.

Since I have moderated this particular forum since early 2000 I guess that I ought to know by now what is permitted and what isn't.
Posted by: dsimpy

Re: Abu Hamza to be extradited to US - Sat Oct 06 2012 05:27 PM

Originally Posted By: lesley153
He was attempting to make a bomb. It went off before he wanted it to.


Which, as far as I'm aware, happened during the Russian occupation of Afghanistan - resistance to which, by Western standards, hardly makes him a terrorist. (He may well BE a terrorist, or an inciter to terrorism, but it's interesting that when he lost his hand he was a terrorist to the Russians and a freedom fighter to the Americans and British.)

Charges laid against him in Britain related to incitement, not to killing people. However despicable incitement may be, it's interesting that no British right-wing racist - as far as I recall - has ever been imprisoned for a substantial period for inciting hatred against minorities in Britain. That severity has been reserved for Muslims provoked by the American/British occupation of Arab states, the use of torture to extract information, and long-term detention without charge (internment).

And as to taking the thread off topic, it started with 'And about time too' - which is hardly a very specific comment with which to direct a topic. I deliberately didn't get involved at the start of this thread - it was really when it turned to fairly personalised gloating and undermining the concept of an individual's human rights that it became increasingly difficult to ignore. There's a xenophobia about some of the threads that appear on this Forum from time to time that is, quite honestly, despicable on an international site. Comments from Lesley153 such as 'taken our money and preached hatred against us' only expose her monocultural, mono-ethnic view of British society - actually British society contains Muslims as well as other minorities, and sections of the 'majority' population too, that don't agree with this John Bull 'mother of democracies' nonsense.

So I don't believe I've taken the thread off-topic. Nor have I been the first to make it controversial. But if you thought this would just be a replica of the tabloids' 'sling your hook' jingoism and go unchallenged, think again.
Posted by: ladymacb29

Re: Abu Hamza to be extradited to US - Sat Oct 06 2012 06:17 PM

Terrorism is when you hurt someone(s) intending to make other people afraid. Terrorism - done by ANYONE - is not good and terrorists should be put in jail.

Had there not been a 9/11, I'm sure the United States wouldn't have gone into Afghanistan. But because the Taliban was letting Al Qaeda do whatever they wanted, the US - and many other nations - went in to stop Al Qaeda. Now you have people like Abu Hamza who don't care who they hurt and telling people it's ok to go kill civilians and such... those people should be in jail. Intentionally hurting civilians is never the answer - no matter whose 'side' you are on.

As for the Iranians - if you want to talk about that whole can of worms, please start another thread as this is about the extradition of Abu Hamza.
Posted by: lesley153

Re: Abu Hamza to be extradited to US - Sat Oct 06 2012 07:17 PM

Originally Posted By: dsimpy
fairly personalised gloating
Not gloating: relief.

Originally Posted By: dsimpy
undermining the concept of an individual's human rights
What's that, Hamza's right to live here on benefits while inciting his followers to kill us?

Originally Posted By: dsimpy
Comments from Lesley153 such as 'taken our money and preached hatred against us' only expose her monocultural, mono-ethnic view of British society
Can you see if you can possibly manage to do this posting thing without making unfounded judgements and wild generalisations about me, please. Thank you so much.
Posted by: mountaingoat

Re: Abu Hamza to be extradited to US - Sun Oct 07 2012 12:32 AM

Dsimpy is right about the right wing pro American and British view on this forum. The people who post blatant US propaganda or anti climate change propaganda get a free reign. As soon as someone comes in with an opposing view it becomes CONTROVERSIAL and posts dissapear or threats to close down the thread appear. Sue, if you are the one responsible for this, and as Dsimpy says this is an international forum, you should examine your own beliefs and motives.
Posted by: playmate1111

Re: Abu Hamza to be extradited to US - Sun Oct 07 2012 02:16 AM

Well let me put my 2 cents worth in. Good riddance!
Posted by: pmarney

Re: Abu Hamza to be extradited to US - Sun Oct 07 2012 03:56 AM

Great to see him gone, but we will still be paying Benefits for his Wife and Kids for years to come.
Posted by: lesley153

Re: Abu Hamza to be extradited to US - Sun Oct 07 2012 04:57 AM

So we couldn't fly them out too? Shame!

Still, with luck, they won't be out on the streets, with money we pay them not to work, screaming death to Britain and the British. Not yet, anyway. When they start, they can join their husband/father.
Posted by: lesley153

Re: Abu Hamza to be extradited to US - Sun Oct 07 2012 04:59 AM

Originally Posted By: mountaingoat
Dsimpy is right about the right wing pro American and British view on this forum.

That's odd because I've noticed posts from all over the political spectrum. If all you've seen is right-wing sentiment, have another look.
Posted by: Jakeroo

Re: Abu Hamza to be extradited to US - Sun Oct 07 2012 08:38 AM

I sorta think dsimpy's main intention was to point out that the world is a little more complicated than we believe - and just WHO are we supposed to believe?? lol

The so-called "civilised" nations grant freedom of speech, amongst other things. For instance, in my country, people can rant and rave as loud as they want to about anti-abortion all they want. Of course, when they blow up clinics or murder doctors, that's a different thing altogether. There is a huge difference between "incitement" and "assassination".

Hamza's "story" is really not unlike Bin Laden's. Once a "friend", now a "foe", mostly due to changing world politics. Did everyone forget the Contra "affair"? lol. And while Britain may be glad that he's gone from their country, he just becomes someone else's financial burden - nothing of real importance is solved in the long run.
Posted by: sisterseagull

Re: Abu Hamza to be extradited to US - Sun Oct 07 2012 09:37 AM

I see that our (the British) government placed conditions on Hamza's extradition such that he and the others would only go on the proviso that he wouldn't face the death sentence. We seem to have previous for this sort of 'appeasement' and look where that got the world.

I won't post my feelings here about Hamza and his ilk as, I'm sure, they would result in this thread being closed. Suffice to say that, as a former military man, he would have received no quarter whatsoever from me.
Posted by: mountaingoat

Re: Abu Hamza to be extradited to US - Sun Oct 07 2012 11:57 AM

What about a guarantee of no torture. The US has form in this department. They also have form in using confessions under torture. They also have form in telling a detainee they will stay forever if they do not plead guilty in a shonky military tribunal. This happened to David Hicks from Australia and the Government recently dropped a civil case against him because his conviction was not seen as legitimate. Obama uses drones to execute people and anyone else in the area in Pakistan. The courts recently ruled that Obama can detain anyone indefinately without trial. To extradite people to a country that has abdicated the rule of law is a travesty.
Posted by: dsimpy

Re: Abu Hamza to be extradited to US - Sun Oct 07 2012 02:02 PM

Originally Posted By: mountaingoat
Dsimpy is right about the right wing pro American and British view on this forum. The people who post blatant US propaganda or anti climate change propaganda get a free reign. As soon as someone comes in with an opposing view it becomes CONTROVERSIAL and posts dissapear or threats to close down the thread appear. Sue, if you are the one responsible for this, and as Dsimpy says this is an international forum, you should examine your own beliefs and motives.


Very well expressed, Mountaingoat.
Posted by: dsimpy

Re: Abu Hamza to be extradited to US - Sun Oct 07 2012 02:05 PM

Originally Posted By: sisterseagull

I won't post my feelings here about Hamza and his ilk as, I'm sure, they would result in this thread being closed.


No SS, I'm pretty sure you'd be safe enough.
Posted by: C30

Re: Abu Hamza to be extradited to US - Sun Oct 07 2012 02:51 PM

What a "pantomime"........"He's being extradited"........"Oh no he isn't", "Oh Yes he is", "Oh no he isn't", "Oh yes he is"!............you couldn't make it up! Then of course with appeals, counter appeals and appeals about the appealing, a veritable army of Lawyers have doubtless done very nicely out of it all.

I have "examined my beliefs"......and net result is that I am still right wing politically and am always going to be.......contary to belief of the "liberal left", a great number of the people living in this Isle, don't take kindly to being threatened by those happy to accept the hospitality and "handouts" this country doles out.

Extradited - good riddance and I suspect my views and those of "sisterseagull" likely to be not dissimilar, as I too served in our country's military.
Posted by: lesley153

Re: Abu Hamza to be extradited to US - Sun Oct 07 2012 05:24 PM

Why would you compare David Hicks from Australia, and Obama's drones in Pakistan, with Abu Hamza from Finsbury Park?
Posted by: Chavs

Re: Abu Hamza to be extradited to US - Sun Oct 07 2012 05:55 PM

Because Hicks was an Australian who got tortured and abused by people purporting to be carrying out American Justice on the basis that they suspected him to be a terrorist - and Hamza and the other people extradited this week are on terrorism charges with some of the evidence against them being testimony from people like Hicks who might well have said anything under the circumstances. Etc.

I find it hard to find sympathy for Hamza. & I think he's had a fair go at the appeal system, with the best lawyers, so I think he just has to face the music.

But I don't feel confident in this US v Terrorism justice system and would be very scared if any of my loved ones ended up in it.
Posted by: lesley153

Re: Abu Hamza to be extradited to US - Sun Oct 07 2012 05:59 PM

Thanks, Chavs!

I have no sympathy for Abu Hamza at all. Not only has he had more than his fair share of legal aid - paid for by the rest of us - but what he wished for us is worse than anything he may be facing in America.
Posted by: Chavs

Re: Abu Hamza to be extradited to US - Sun Oct 07 2012 06:11 PM

Understandable. That's beside the point when it comes to the wheels of justice, though. They have to turn correctly at all times for any of us to be able to condemn him, otherwise we aren't any better than him. Therefore, it was money that needed to be spent and was for the general public as well as him, to prevent your and my rights being trampled upon.

The least deserving have to be given full rights and access to all legal rights, otherwise we open the door to a subjective justice system that can deem you to be unndeserving at any time.

That's part of the complaint about gitmo - it deemed some people not deserving of rights, and a lot of those people left without ever being charged which just shows up how flawed and abusive that idea was, I think.
Posted by: satguru

Re: Abu Hamza to be extradited to US - Sun Oct 07 2012 06:13 PM

Originally Posted By: mountaingoat
The people who post blatant US propaganda or anti climate change propaganda get a free reign.


I think that's what reasonable people call 'a balanced debate'. Do you really want a world where people who you disagree with aren't allowed their say, like North Korea or Cuba, and I haven't seen a single pro-climate change post deleted so maybe you are a little oversensitive on that one? Or you just want the anti-climate change posts deleted instead to be happy?
Posted by: sue943

Re: Abu Hamza to be extradited to US - Sun Oct 07 2012 06:43 PM

What the heck does climate change have to do with Abu Hamza being extradited?