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#1097773 - Sun Jun 07 2015 02:55 PM Re: Cost of study in the U.S.
bloomsby Offline
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A little postscript to this thread. According to this article, a growing number of Americans are going to university in Germany:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-32821678

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#1097810 - Sun Jun 07 2015 10:01 PM Re: Cost of study in the U.S.
mehaul Offline
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Loc: Florida USA
There are ways to earn an education that aren't so expensive.
I may've lucked out in my efforts. I went to college nearly full time until I was 37. I never ended up owing anything for it. I left the military with diplomas in Metrology and Nuclear Physics. I had an accident soon after my discharge and was told by my ophthalmologist and the Veterans Administration that I could no longer ply those trades because of my new physical limitations. I had to retrain which the VA gave me a stipend to live on while I took free courses at a State College. After I had that degree (AAS) and had worked for a time, I realized my limitations applied to any work I attempted and re-entered college to get the beginning of an Electronics degree. I started that again in a State Community College for only a couple of hundred a semester. In my first semester I got a job with a fortune 500 company to do Metrology work. They had tuition reimbursement if the employee passed the course. So I recouped my outlay to the college. Once I had that degree (AA), I began a course in Manufacturing Technology, Quality Assurance Engineering and finished that course requirements, got reimbursed by the Company again but they wouldn't pay for the diploma (another AAS) and graduation ceremonies nor cover the costs to enroll in the MIT Sloane School of Business for Quality Management. I figure to that point I'd earned over 250 college credits for a few hundred dollars.
The keys to cutting college costs in my experience then are to use government schooling for the early general regimens (Math, Literature, Social Sciences, etc). When you do go after and gain a job search out the companies that provide tuition re-imbursement to help pay the costs of specific degree oriented programs. It takes a few years of nose to the grindstone but when you finish, what goes into your wallet is yours and not the bank's. Most militaries offer college tuition benefits. If your company doesn't have re-imbursement, search for State programs that teach toward career switching to help keep education costs to a minimum. The old days of Harvard meaning you can write your own ticket are long gone and not worth the cost of the investment.
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#1097952 - Tue Jun 09 2015 01:47 AM Re: Cost of study in the U.S.
trident Offline
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I have heard of Americans going to school in Germany for free. What a world we live in.
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#1098765 - Sun Jun 14 2015 07:03 PM Re: Cost of study in the U.S.
bloomsby Offline
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Quote:
I have heard of Americans going to school in Germany for free. What a world we live in.


Indeed, what a world!

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#1107602 - Wed Sep 02 2015 12:40 PM Re: Cost of study in the U.S.
HairyBear Offline
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I have an associate's degree, a bachelor's degree, and a JD and can't get a job doing anything, so in that sense my thousands and thousands of dollars in student loans were a waste. I did learn a great deal, though. Speaking from the point of view of a Reagan Republican, government is the problem. If the government did not underwrite the student loans, only those who could pay for college or who got scholarships would get to go, and since there are thousands of colleges, you'd start to see tuition come down to reasonable amounts in a hurry. But as long as the government is promising to pay for those students who don't, the tuitions will continue to go up and up and up. You see the same thing in medical costs. Housing costs were going through the same phenomenon for years, but now that the feds have pretty much gotten out of the business of paying for housing, those prices have either remained stable (rent) or fallen (private homes) for the past 15 years.

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#1107615 - Wed Sep 02 2015 03:27 PM Re: Cost of study in the U.S.
MiraJane Offline
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So you have thousands and and thousands of dollars in student loans and you're saying you shouldn't have been able to get them? Why did you take the loans out if they are so wrong?

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#1107624 - Wed Sep 02 2015 05:12 PM Re: Cost of study in the U.S.
HairyBear Offline
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I was a kid and didn't know any better. I was 17 when I went off to college, still believed I'd be a millionaire by the time I was 25, still believed that a college education was a guarantee of a good job and a good career. Also, when I first went, I went on scholarships. When I went to law school, it was on a full ride scholarship plus a stipend (they paid ME to go). Turns out not even a JD is a guarantee of a good job or a good career anymore.

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#1107625 - Wed Sep 02 2015 05:18 PM Re: Cost of study in the U.S.
jonnowales Offline
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Some interesting points there HairyBear. There was a lot of publicity in the UK back in 2010/11 when the cap on tuition fees in parts of the UK was increased such that it went from ~3,000pa to ~9,000pa. If you can't pay this off after a certain amount of time, the "debt is wiped" (which really means, the government pays for whatever of it is left). A lot of people suggested, and I have to admit I bought into this argument at the time, that the rise would deter the less well off from attending university. In reality, people who graduate and never really earn all that much will be paying no more under the higher cap than they would under the lower cap; in other words, if people weren't paying back the 9,000 for a Bachelor's Degree, they certainly won't be paying back 27,000!

The fact there is now real interest accrued on the loans under the new fee system is harsh however; you could make real progress with paying back the loan, fall on hard times through no fault of your own (and lets face it, with automation making more jobs redundant in the future, losing your job at some point in your life is very likely for people of my age), and the interest then just takes you backwards.

All that being said, I am glad I went to university in the days when fees were 3,000 a year (and as a Welsh student in Wales, there were additional discounts); I was pretty fortunate to find a well paid job straight after my Master's and it looks like I will end up paying all of mine back over a certain period of time. If the fees were 9,000 a year, the loan repayments would be taking chunks out of my income for decades.

I have always preferred the idea of reducing the number of subjects available at university and keeping fees lower for the fewer that attend. I think, in the UK at least, people are starting to realise that attending university to study certain subjects will be a mistake that they will be paying for (or not!) twenty to thirty years after graduation. I am not sure what the future will look like (obviously!) but at some point automation will lead us to a post-work world or at least a reduced working week. Then again, Bertrand Russell was predicting this in 1932 (In Praise of Idleness) and it still hasn't really happened! What the role of the university would be in such a world, I don't know. Studying for leisure, perhaps? That is what it should be about in my view!


Edited by jonnowales (Wed Sep 02 2015 05:36 PM)

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#1107687 - Thu Sep 03 2015 06:09 AM Re: Cost of study in the U.S.
bloomsby Offline
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If I'd been faced with the prospect of notching up a huge debt at age 18-21 I would have never gone anywhere near a university and would have tried my luck with my A levels (school leaving qualifications), despite pressures from friends, family and school to go to university.

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#1107726 - Thu Sep 03 2015 03:06 PM Re: Cost of study in the U.S.
MiraJane Offline
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Originally Posted By: HairyBear
I was a kid and didn't know any better. I was 17 when I went off to college, still believed I'd be a millionaire by the time I was 25, still believed that a college education was a guarantee of a good job and a good career. Also, when I first went, I went on scholarships. When I went to law school, it was on a full ride scholarship plus a stipend (they paid ME to go). Turns out not even a JD is a guarantee of a good job or a good career anymore.



So law school was a free ride with extra money to boot. Where the loan from? Undergrad years?

Bloomsby, I don't understand your last post at all.

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#1107740 - Thu Sep 03 2015 03:32 PM Re: Cost of study in the U.S.
HairyBear Offline
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Yes.

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#1107755 - Thu Sep 03 2015 05:03 PM Re: Cost of study in the U.S.
bloomsby Offline
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Quote:
Bloomsby, I don't understand your last post at all.


I simply meant that if I had had to borrow a large sum of money in order to study at a university I would not have gone to university.

At that time (the 1960s) it was virtually unheard of in Britain for students to borrow in order to study. Entry to all universities, including those considered unfashionable, was competitive to highly competitive. Subject to a residence requirement and a means test (based largely on one's parents' income), just about anyone who managed to get accepted for an undergraduate course received a scholarship from his/her local education authority. This covered fees and included a grant for maintenance; the actual amount was reduced from the maximum according to parental income (and own income). If one's parents' income was very high, the reduction extended to the fees, but that was rare. This is an outline of the situation.

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#1108123 - Tue Sep 08 2015 03:14 AM Re: Cost of study in the U.S.
sue943 Offline
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The Channel Islands are counted as being overseas for the sakes of UK university fees which is a bit harsh given that the majority of graduates remain in the UK with their skills at no cost to the UK in schools, grants etc. Jersey government was certainly generous when my children went to university, they paid the bulk of the fees and maintenance costs based on my income, I only had to contribute a small amount. Back then even millionaires had the bulk of the tuition fees paid for their children, there was a fairly low capped amount payable per household.

When the UK Student Loans first started someone there didn't know basic British Islands geography so CI students applied for, and were given, loans from them on the same terms as UK students. The savvy ones took the maximum loans, put them into higher interest rate bank accounts and pocketed the interest - like my daughter. My son, not savvy, spent his and since he doesn't work due to mental health issues they are not going to be repaid as the terms of the loans were that they were not repayable until earnings reached a certain level. I am not paying it, it isn't my debt.

The government are not quite so generous now. I have just checked and found this...

How funding works

Funding is made up of maintenance grants and tuition fees.

Maintenance grant

The maintenance grant is capped at 5,500 for a standard course for the 2015 / 16 academic year.

This grant is to help towards living expenses, eg accommodation, travel, food and books.

Additional sums are allowed for periods in excess of the standard academic year.

Tuition fees

The maximum well contribute towards tuition fees per academic year will be 9,000.

Youll have to contribute at least 1,500, but you can get a loan from NatWest to cover this cost.

Parents' payments towards tuition fees

If your household earns below 26,750, youll receive the maximum amount of help towards tuition fees for that academic year (9,000 for 2015 / 16) and the maximum grant available.

If your household earns over 54,000, you'll be likely to receive the maximum amount of help to tuition fees, but you won't receive a maintenance grant.
...............

So still fairly generous. It looks as if the UK no longer count us as overseas for fees if they are capping at 9,000 for non-medical courses, so that is new. If a student does medicine/dentistry/veterinary courses that is much more expensive so those will be paid at the higher rate.



Edited by sue943 (Tue Sep 08 2015 03:21 AM)
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#1108420 - Fri Sep 11 2015 06:52 AM Re: Cost of study in the U.S.
trident Offline
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Loc: Wisconsin USA
I am of the opinion that university should be available to everyone, and if government can help provide for those who don't have other means, then all the better. I was only able to attend university because I was able to get grants from the government, scholarships from my own work, and additionally from loans that I had to take out. I had exactly $0 in help from my parents.

I find it a little offensive when someone says that only people who can afford college should attend. As it is young adults who are fresh out of high school going to college, how could you possibly know who can afford it and who can't? You can't; you can only know whose parents can afford university for their children. If you add the stipulation that those who get scholarships should go along with those who can afford it, you aren't putting forth a much more convincing argument. This is sheer elitism with a thin veil of meritocracy. If you want to go by a pure meritocratic standard, then eliminate all legacy benefits and judge purely on academic standards. Even then you have severe inequality.

I find it irritating that students graduating high school are told all their lives that they will only be successful if they attend expensive universities, and then they are told that they shouldn't take on too much debt and shouldn't take advantage of government help after all this. You can't have both.

I am personally of the opinion that we ought to start looking at students' tuition subsidizing lavish facilities and sports salaries rather than throwing poor kids out of college.
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#1108514 - Sat Sep 12 2015 11:45 AM Re: Cost of study in the U.S.
HairyBear Offline
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Registered: Fri Sep 01 2006
Posts: 703
Loc: Florida USA
As one of those poor kids who couldn't afford to go except on scholarships and loans, I agree with you on everything except the idea that government should pay for it. Statistically, very bright people who don't go to college earn almost as much as their college-educated brethren (sistren?), so the idea that a college education is the key to success is flat-out wrong, the key to success is intelligence, and intelligent people are far more likely to go to college and get advanced degrees, hence the correlation (not causation). So really, government paying for the education of people who would make a lot of money anyway is a transfer tax, from the poor and the middle class to the well-off, or at least those who will be well off at some point in the future. The meritocratic argument has far more going for it, that only those bright enough to go should go, but people with money will always be able to buy junior a college education, whether he deserves it or not.

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#1108721 - Mon Sep 14 2015 10:46 PM Re: Cost of study in the U.S.
Jakeroo Offline
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I paid all my university fees on my own. My parents set up an education fund for my younger sister, but not for me. I worked two part time jobs while attending school (including senior high). I did not take out any loans (mostly because I didn't qualify since the loans committee said I should borrow from my parents instead lol).

While many loans taken out by folks in my "era" eventually got forgiven in the end (after lots of years of interest payments lol), I won't suggest that they were a good idea then, nor today.

Not sure "university" is altogether necessary either unless you plan on being a scientist or a doctor etc or even a teacher (which pays considerably less, which is somewhat of a shame). If you have a passion/talent, you might be better off attending a college or tech institute.

I DO remember one university professor from a certain subject class number one in 1975 saying that "a university education is no guarantee of either a job or a career. If that's what you want, a guarantee, then become a tradesman or, at least a journeyman in a job that you show proclivity in, and that the company you work for will pay for. The real purpose of a university education is a liberal one, not a monetary one. Make your choice now, before it's too late. Otherwise your only hope is tenure".

Sorry if folks think that message is a "new one" that pertains only to their own current generation : )


Edited by Jakeroo (Mon Sep 14 2015 10:49 PM)
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#1108729 - Mon Sep 14 2015 11:28 PM Re: Cost of study in the U.S.
MiraJane Offline
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"... you might be better off attending college."

Down here in the USA, we use college and university interchangeably. To further confuse matters, we also say "school" no matter where someone is pursuing their education, be it Oxford, the local 2 year community college, the four year college, the real universities that exist here, or a six week bartending course.


Edited by MiraJane (Mon Sep 14 2015 11:29 PM)
Edit Reason: I really hate autocorrect fixing something after I've typed it.

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#1108753 - Tue Sep 15 2015 01:42 AM Re: Cost of study in the U.S.
Jakeroo Offline
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Loc: Alberta Canada
Well that would be confusing to some folks around the world for sure.

Up here, if you're still attending "school" you haven't graduated grade 12 yet (or 13 maybe in Ontario, which is sort of like prep, I think). Tech institutes and colleges in our province do not generally have the strict grade point average/matriculation requirements of our universities.
The term University is definitely not "the same as something else" here.

That doesn't mean university is necessarily "better" or "worth the expense or time" in the long run, depending on what one ultimately ends up doing with their working life. Ingvar Kamprad, Roman Ambramovich, Paul Allen, Michael Dell, Michele Ferraro, Larry Ellison, Bill Gates etc etc come to mind lol




Edited by Jakeroo (Tue Sep 15 2015 01:47 AM)
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#1108787 - Tue Sep 15 2015 10:20 AM Re: Cost of study in the U.S.
bloomsby Offline
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For people from other English-speaking countries the American use of the word school for just about any educational establishment certainly takes some getting used to, but I suppose the use of the word college in Britain is almost as confusing.

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#1108806 - Tue Sep 15 2015 01:11 PM Re: Cost of study in the U.S.
MiraJane Offline
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Okay, I'll bite. I've been told what college means in Australia. What does it mean in Britain and Canada?

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#1108808 - Tue Sep 15 2015 02:47 PM Re: Cost of study in the U.S.
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It can be a university, or more accurately part of one - how the colleges relate to each other depends on the University but in essence the student spends most of his/her life in the college, including eating, sleeping, and some if not all tuition. The standard of tuition and exams will be moderated by the university because in the final analysis, it's the university which awards the degrees. Famous collegiate universities include Oxford and Cambridge, London, Durham... Wales used to be more collegiate than it is now but most of its former colleges have split off and become universities in their own right.

Some colleges are in fact schools, e.g. Eton, probably the most famous public school in Britain, is actually Eton College but so are some other schools, not nearly as famous nor even public, which is to say private (another can of linguistic worms) - and by schools, I mean education that ends at age 18.

And then there are institutions that deal with specific types of education and training. Art colleges are one category, technical colleges another. One art college used to be part of a university - St Martins was accredited to London but is now a university in its own right - but usually they are/were below degree level, teaching students in the fine and applied arts. Technical colleges were also below degree level, training students in all sorts of applied subject, often linked to a specific profession - from draughtsmanship to plumbing to bricklaying to car mechanics. More like your community colleges without degrees.

I'm sure I've missed some finer points!
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#1108812 - Tue Sep 15 2015 03:37 PM Re: Cost of study in the U.S.
dippo Offline
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Just to confuse things even further regarding current UK nomenclature, if I were to go back to my youth, I would be studying at the University of Wherever, in the College of Arts and Law, and in the School of Language, Cultures, Art History, and Music.

In my day, we just said I did German.


Edited by dippo (Tue Sep 15 2015 03:39 PM)

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#1108820 - Tue Sep 15 2015 05:13 PM Re: Cost of study in the U.S.
bloomsby Offline
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Let me add to flopsy's excellent answer.

In the U.K. a university needs a royal charter in order to function fully. There was a time (c. 1914-50) when British governments were reluctant to grant charters, and 'universities in the making' were put through a lengthy period of apprenticeship, as it were. The universities of Exeter, Leicester, Nottingham and Southampton, for example, though all founded in or before 1921 had to wait till the 1950s before receiving charters. During this period of 'apprenticeship' they were all called the University College of ... and their students took degrees awarded by the University of London.

In connection with the word college the 1964 edition of the Concise Oxford Dictionary
includes in its long list of meanings this: (pretentious name for) private school. It is clear from the entry as a whole that the compilers were not thinking of places like Eton or Dulwich. wink At that time the term private school in this kind of context had derogatory connotations and tended to be used of schools owned by the headmaster or headmistress or a small group of people. In particular, such schools did not normally have a board of governors.

To add to the fun, there are (or have been) a number of secondary schools with the words collegiate school in the title, such as the Girls' Collegiate School, Leicester. What was collegiate about these schools is a mystery to me.


Edited by bloomsby (Tue Sep 15 2015 05:46 PM)

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