Are you mocking me Sue? I'm not using any money on CDs, I just win them on radio! I'm a master at that...hehe... But having a lot of CDs doesn't mean that I have lot of money, and you have no idea of why I don't have a job. Who are you to tell me that? You think that I'm just lazy and that I can't do anything? Sorry but that's not as easy as you think. And is it ok to charge less than 18 years old people? (Even if I'll be 18 this summer...)

No one is suggesting you pay anything at all, you get just the same service as you do now and it will cost you nothing.

No, I am not mocking you, you said it is not fair - life seldom is fair and as you have told us that you do not go to school and spend virtually all your time in the library accessing FunTrivia on their computers, I spend virually all my time in a tiny office working very hard..... who has the 'fairest' deal here? I should love to spend my days playing at FT but no one is going to pay for my food and other necessities if I were to not work.

Just stop moaning that life isn't fair just because you cannot afford something, loads of people can't afford things which they would love to have, you don't hear them constantly complaining.

I don't know if it's just me, but many people told me I'm complaining a lot on Funtrivia lately. If that's so, then I'm sorry, because that's nowhere my intentions. I know that I wouldn't lose anything I still have if I can't pay that amount. I read the topic you know? Also, you tell me that it is fair to me that I don't go at school anymore and that I don't have any job, that I get all my time on the computer... You think that's so convenient? You think that it's all so easy because of that? I don't want to go too far and say things I would regret later, but you don't know, you have no idea. You have a job, you have responsibilities, so you get on my case because I don't have these responsibilities like you do? Maybe I complain a lot, yes I am boring to read when I complain all the time. Okay, I stop here.

Here's my 2 cents on the subject... 1) The pop-up and banner ads don't bother me at all- I just ignore them. I understand that the site needs money to operate. 2) I would be more than willing to pay some sort of membership fee. Trivia has become a big part of my life, and I can't imagine living without it! However, as someone mentioned, what about people without credit cards? Perhaps you could pay by PayPal or something. In all, I think the site is wonderful and well-managed, and would like to thank everyone who puts their time into making it work! - Debby

I don't know how typical I am, but here are my thoughts:

(1) Pop-up ads are annoying but tolerable.

(2) In general, my belief is that content on the internet, like access to it, should be free. Obviously, FTQ is more than merely content, but it is beyond doubt *mostly* content.

(3) FTQ is a community of users, not a business enterprise. Its essence is in its communal nature. No one is paid for the content of their quizzes; many people volunteer their time and energy to the common endeavor. Both good and bad things arise out of this communitarian essence. If FTQ had paid subscribers at any level, I would have much higher expectations not merely of the quality of the "service" aspects of the FTQ site, but also of the content. My relationship to the site and the community would also change in other, subtler ways.

(4) Speaking only for myself, although I enjoy the site very much, I would not pay the fee. If my free membership became too clearly a badge of second-class status, I would find some other way to keep my intellectual wheels spinning and creative juices flowing during the long, dreary hours of gainful employment.

...I therefore hope that this drastic change does not go through.

Even though this isn't a business enterprise as you say, Xaosdog, it does still cost Terry the Webmaster money to run it. If we want the site to continue running as well as it does then we can help out IF WE WANT. I would not consider anyone a "second class citizen" if they did not pay ... we all have real lives out there and realise that other bills must come first.

From what I can gather if you did not pay the small fee then nothing would change. If you did pay the fee then you would get a few little extras that others would not. The pop up ads annoy the crap out of me and I would pay the fee just to avoid them!

Terry, You can't please all of the people all of the time! I would be glad, to pay a small fee, to help Fun Trivia survive its growing pains.

I like this site very much. I like taking quizzes--and making them. Most of all I like the people I have meet here. I want to see it stay on. Terry should never have to be out of pocket. It's like we asked him out to lunch-then stuck him with the check.

Interesting remarks, I keep on thinking what might work rather than polarizing us, is the garage or bake sale concept, like let's raise enough money for a new server, with a small gift like a T shirt or something or a bumper sticker, or else, the PBS type subscription drive that the American channels do, they auction off stuff, they basically provide a similar service and I doubt if anyone feels guilty about being a member or not when they watch the program (except me perhaps, but I'm not normal!)

The preacher doesn't peek into the collection plate, nor does the premium member thing appear on our foreheads.

It's basically the same concept as we benefit from the lack of commercials on "Public" television and the better programs from a cultural standpoint, but we don't feel terribly guilty watching it without commercials. I think that I used to pay when I could and didn't when I couldn't.

I think Bruyere has articulated my feelings better than I did with my effort to be systematic and thorough and honest.

The nature of the FTQ phenomenon being what it is, I would rather (i) do, say, fifty hours of work on the site per year, or (ii) participate in some effort to raise money through an auction or what have you, than to pay even a trifling sum as a subscriber or than to free-ride off of subscription payments paid by other community members. To me the subscription notion alters the nature of the endeavor in ways I don't like.

Maybe I'd get used to it. Maybe not. In any event, I suspect that new users surfing casually to the site are a lot less likely to be intrigued enough to stick around if there is any hint, however unjustified, that this is a commercial rather than a community endeavor.

A question: how much is Terry in fact out of pocket on an annual basis? I would guess that advertising would approximately meet hosting and related expenses, and what he is really "out-of-pocket" is many, many hours of productive time, rather than being out cash to cover expenses. Is that approximately correct? If so, perhaps Terry could consider farming out the webmastering responsibilities to volunteers, or is that really not feasible?

Re: Time issues.

"Volunteering' really isn't feasible. Why? The reason we have trouble finding editors and such is because there is a certain standard. We can't take just anyone. Also, there is no way of knowing how much work someone does on the site.

Terry's time: I think the membership thing is basically for his out-of-pocket expenses. Face it, the site is expensive to run to cover expenses and Terry's been trying to get advertisers, which hasn't been working out so well lately. Also, Gunslinger and others do a lot of work on the site, Terry basically just has to handle the coding and give final say on things (from what I understand).

These sort of paid subscription things seem to be the wave of the future. It's a good way to get your die-hard fans to donate, but still leave the site open to those who may not be able to come up with the money or are just passing through. So long as the current services for the non-paid members do not change, I see no problem with having members. It’s worked well at other sites such as fanfiction.net and livejournal.com. The only thing is you have to be reasonable in the amount you ask yearly. A site that archives KISS dolls started asking an ungodly amount to download anything. I haven’t been there since. At least at ff.net and lj.com you can still do everything a paid member can – you just have to contend with banner ads and fewer special services.

Also, when people do pay, you need to be sure their services are always available for their use. Once people start giving you money, the web owner’s responsibilities multiply ten-fold and tricky legal issues can also arise. So long as you guys are up to the challenge, then I think it’s a great idea.

I don’t know if I would pay (I just found this site and submitted a quiz a number of days ago and it has yet to go online, nor have I heard from the editors. Not instilling great confidence in me thus far, guys). However, I don’t think you should pay the editors. If I did sign up, I’d agree to pay the site costs, but I’m not going to pay someone’s salary. Do it for the love, folks, or don’t do it at all.

As both an editor and an administrator here, I can guarantee I'm not getting any moolah from this site. Trust me - there's no check coming in that I've seen.

On a sidenote (but, I did want to address this issue that Danger just brought up), please understand that we are now in the summer months. What this means is that the editors can be SWAMPED with quizzes. Every schoolchild in America seems to be submitting quizzes! Your quiz isn't the only one in the queue to be looked at. Quizzes are reviewed as carefully as possible - they aren't just put online without being checked. This takes time.

Please see this site for more discussion on this issue.

[ May 29, 2002, 02:40 PM: Message edited by: Linda1 ]

I don't think anyone would be treated any differently, really. If a person had a membership, their members page would look a little different--they'd have a few more frills, isn't this so?

The idea of selling memberships or subscriptions is not new. Have you ever been to a play or concert where the patrons were not listed in the program? Did you enjoy the event less because you were not listed?

Terry will ultimately have to decide. This is his site. I say, for what my opinion is worth, is to try it. Then, if this voluntary fund-raising does not work, Terry may have to go with a small membership fee for everybody.

This is a wonderful site. It is the only one I post in. It also allows me to have fun with trivia--which I love.

You know, I appreciate Terry. I'm red-faced that I never said it before.

Tricky one ! It is a pity that volunteering is not a possibility as that would be the ideal solution for those who cannot afford "membership" but have time to "pay" in other ways (Whoah !). However, it must be remembered that there will always be some people who cannot contribute in any way for genuine reasons ( I am compiling a list of genuine reasons which I will sell on at a very reasonable rate). Perhaps, as in the UK, membership could be half-price for the "unwaged", and if people felt they could not afford even that they could apply for free membership at the discretion of Terry (see below). Now there will be some people who abuse this (like me), but in my fairly long experience of running voluntary organisations most people will be honest - especially Trivia folk ! Another idea is to set the membership rate at such a low rate virtually everybody would pay up - even me. I am sure most people would sign up if it was only a few euros a year... but $10 or $ 20 would probably appeal only to the seriously obsessed ! Also do please consider longer term discounted memberships and direct debits - a lot of busy people will have no problem financially but are put off by the hassle of writing yet another cheque etc. (Not me ! I'm always broke !) I thought Bruyere's suggestions were good too - and I'm not just grovelling there. Whatever method is used people have to realise that a site of such excellent quality as this does cost money to run and it should be paid for as fairly as possible ("The party's over !"). I am sure I am not alone in being very grateful to Terry and the editors for all the hard work and money they have invested here - We are not worthy ! etc. Now, back to that letter..."Dear Terry, my pet gerbil has just died and I am sure in this moment of grief you will give me ten year's free membership, especially as I grovel - er - say such nice things to y'all...
Yours Sincerely Frederick J. Rothschild - oh what a giveaway !"

Well, well, you've groveled now Ingilby! It's just that I've dealt with student populations with widely varying incomes and will never ever emphasize that income difference, I worked in an affluent school where not everyone was affluent, I've sent my kid to a school where she was the only scholarship student and then someone pointed out that the company kids were all subsidized by their companies so no guilt necessary!

Here's another thing, I was the member of the zoo association in a middle sized Midwestern American town. It was lovely, they gave us some perks, a party four times a year, special viewings of neat visiting animals, Halloween in the zoo, post cards, bumper stickers and a line you could pass through in priority. None of us walked around like we were board members and insisted on the Polar bears being painted green or we'd take our money out either!

xaosdog and ingilby you both bring up a scheme that is like a cooperative system therefore a natural food store in the states that has members working in the store once a month for reduced rates, or else a child care center that many Americans do, I believe many Montessori schools still do it, interesting, but as LadyMacbeth says, perhaps difficult to put into practice.
Personally I'd always encourage discretion at all times.

Now as to the quizzes being edited, the ball is currently in my court actually, yours happens to be my field, and yet, as I do several other sections heavily barraged in the American summer vacation months, and several editors are out for various reasons, it will be attended to fairly soon.
Sorry to disillusion you, but your hopes are not dashed on the rocks yet.
By the way, bear in mind that not only holidays play havoc with the waves of editing, but also, any event in the movies or book world does too.
Ie: Tolkien movie seems to produce fifty quizzes on the book not the movie.

But how would someone prove they don't have the money? Would Terry have to audit their accounts? Unlikely.

If you don't have the premier membership, it will NOT be a big deal. The only thing which will be different is that premier members won't get the ads and they'll get a couple more statistics things.

It's not something that we need food stamps and welfare so everyone can have it.

I'm sorry, but it seems to me like people are already getting upset because they don't want to pay or can't afford to when they shouldn't. Your access to this site will NOT get cut off. You WILL be able to put quizzes online.

I just don't see the big deal.

LadyM's

quote:

---

If you don't have the premier membership, it will NOT be a big deal. The only thing which will be different is that premier members won't get the ads and they'll get a couple more statistics things.

---

sums up what it sounds like Terry has in his mind. No one is saying you can't access the site. Just that there might be some extra "perks" if something like this is implemented. It's certainly not to discriminate against anyone. Just to try to provide a little help with the cost of running the place by allowing those who would like to contribute do so. And, by doing so, they would be offered something for their trouble.

Also something to note is that Terry is still working on this. He's in the planning stages of what he's going to do. While I think it's good that everyone has a chance to voice an opinion and give some of their own ideas and suggestions on how to raise money, nothing's set in stone, yet! So, don't get too upset until something's actually done. For now, keep on giving your thoughts on the issue and make any suggestions that you think might work. But, don't let it consume your every thought.

Terry's a great guy and has always had a love for this site. I can't see his doing anything that would deliberately cause the site to fail in any way.

Here's an idea: "premium" members could choose (or not) to pay one extra dollar for scholarships for kids under 18 (don't know how you'd verify the age, though). It's kind of like the U.S. tax form: you can choose to pay a dollar for presidential election campaigns. Then, if some younger, less-affluent players wanted to be "premium" members, they would have an opportunity. I think it's neat that lots of kids use the site, and I wouldn't want to make them feel less welcome.

What you could do is, have a one-week free deluxe membership so players could see if it's worth it to them. If it was worth it, they could pay. If it wasn't, they could go on as before. I think the Forum should go on being open to all, though.

--Robyn

I agree!!!

Another idea:

Not all players are Forum frequenters, so maybe on the homepage you could do a survey for all asking if they would or would not be likely to join as a premium member if it meant getting x, y, and z extra benefits.

Maybe the survey could ask players' ages.

--Robyn

Hey folks,

Over the next month or two I will be introducing a "gold" FunTrivia membership option. It will be *entirely* optional.

Players who do not become gold members will lose absolutely nothing. They will play games, create games, and enjoy the community *exactly* as they do today.

Players who do pay the small membership fee (couple of bucks a month or so. price tbd.) will get an advertising-free experience, and a few *additional* features that I will be implementing in the near future.

I know that I would certainly be willing to pay a couple of dollars a month to support a website that I used frequently, especially since there are so very few websites that I do visit frequently.

For those who can't afford it, who find paying for a web service offensive, or who simply dont want to pay, nothing in the FunTrivia experience will be lost.

I think this is fair for everyone.

Terry