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#113381 - Fri Nov 23 2001 12:50 AM Who was the worst monarch to rule over England?
Jaffas85 Offline
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Loc: Melbourne
Who do you think was the worst monarch to ever rule England?
King John? King Henry III? King Edward II? King Henry VI?
Or someone else altogether?

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#113382 - Fri Nov 23 2001 02:57 AM Re: Who was the worst monarch to rule over England?
TabbyTom Offline
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Good God, what a question! I wouldn't give you twopence for the whole lot of them put together, with Oliver Cromwell thrown in.

The Normans, Plantagenets, Lancastrians and Yorkists seem to me to have been no better than a bunch of gangsters, perpetually squabbling with relatives and wasting the country's resources on civil and foreign wars. The only excuse for them is that, like most ruling cliques then and now, they were so morally undeveloped that they knew no better. Indeed, I suspect that Stephen and John were not really quite as bad as they've been painted, though that's not saying much. (The ghastly civil war of Stephen's reign might never have occurred if the king hadn't been too chivalrous to arrest and imprison Matilda when she first landed in England.)

The exploitative tax policies of Henry VII, the megalomania of Henry VIII, the religious persecution of Mary I and Elizabeth's odious systematised espionage against her subjects ought to rule out the Tudors. Then we get the Stuarts, with their ineradicable belief in divine right. From then on the power of monarchs is lessened and I don't think there's very much good or bad that you can really attribute to the sovereigns rather than their governments.

If I have to choose the worst of an unspeakable collection, I think I'll plump for James VI of Scots and I of England. He trusted nobody, because he knew that he was utterly untrustworthy himself. His court was a circle of corrupt cronies and and he sold "honours" (as we still absurdly call them in Britain) on an amazing scale. In fact, the more I consider him, the more I realise that he must be Tony Blair's role model.

He dispossessed Roman Catholic landowners in Ireland and "planted" the north of Ireland with a very nasty lot of English and Scots: the consequences of this are still with us. He did his best to perpetuate belief in witchcraft, which was beginning to die out among the educated, and to encourage the persecution of "witches".

Finally, he seems to have been the first of the rabid anti-tobacco brigade who have become so vocal nowadays. I gave up smoking a long time ago, and I know it's an offensive habit, but there are many filthier and more noxious ones, which are often practised by vociferous non-smokers.

So it's Jamie the Saxt for the Bastard of Bastards crown.

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#113383 - Fri Nov 23 2001 04:58 AM Re: Who was the worst monarch to rule over England?
flem-ish Offline
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Is that the one Shakespeare's actors' company had as its patron? And also the one that the Bard of Bards glorifies in a scene from McBeth??

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#113384 - Fri Nov 23 2001 06:20 AM Re: Who was the worst monarch to rule over England?
TabbyTom Offline
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Yes, James became the patron of Shakespeare's company: having been the Lord Chamberlain's men under Elizabeth, they became the King's Men.

I hadn't realised that there were tributes to James in "Macbeth". But yes, various books say that Malcolm's speech (Act 4, Scene 3) about the King of England's God-given power to cure the "King's evil" was intended to flatter James and his belief in divine right. So too Macbeth's own recognition of Banquo's virtues is supposed to have been taken as referring to James ("In his royalty of nature reigns that which would be feared. 'Tis much he dares, and to that dauntless temper of his mind he hath a wisdom that doth guide his valour to act in safety").

"Macbeth" was produced soon after the Gunpowder Plot: no doubt it was politic for the King's Man to emphasise that legitimate kings were God's chosen governors.

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#113385 - Fri Nov 23 2001 08:50 AM Re: Who was the worst monarch to rule over England?
flem-ish Offline
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(Just for your information, and not meant to soften your criticism of Jamie the Saxt.)
From a study of Shakespeare's Macbeth by Sidney Lamb, Professor of English at the Sir George Williams University, Montreal.
"When James VI of Scotland became James I of England in 1603, both courtiers and populace gave him a heartfelt welcome. They had been very anxious as the end of Queen Elizabeth's reign approached and the question of her successor was not settled. Consequently the speedy and peaceful installation of James I was a great relief to the nation. Plays tactfully complimentary to the new monarch would at once encourage his friendly regard and accord with public sentiment. But Shakespeare and his companions had a more personal reason to honor the king. Shortly after his coming to the throne, on May 19, 1603, he had taken them under his personal patronage, changing their name from the Lord Chamberlain's Servants to the King's Servants. He called frequently for their appearance at his court, gave them special privileges in their public dealings, and helped them with grants of money when the plague closed the theaters."
....
"(The King) was a scholar of some reputation, his chief subjects being theology and what we should now call political science. He was well-read in literature also and he wrote both poetry and a series of theoretical works on his favourite subjects."

Professor Lamb also points out that "No less than five of the VIRTUOUS characters in Macbeth are direct ancestors of King James: Duncan,Malcolm, Siward,Banquo and Fleance."

For some reason or other Shakespeare leaves out Mary Stuart from the procession of Scottish monarchs.(Act Four, Scene One,112-121).
The eighth king bears a 'glass' (mirror) in which the future is shown. And 'some I see That TWO-FOLD balls and TREBLE sceptres carry'.
Funny though: had Shakespeare foreseen the creation not only of G.B. but also of U.K. ? The Acts of Union with Scotland and Ireland.
"The whole procession of kings scene would be costumed and performed with the most stately magnificence both for its spectacular effect and because it is a full dress tribute to James I and the Stuart dynasty."


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#113386 - Fri Nov 23 2001 11:15 AM Re: Who was the worst monarch to rule over England?
TabbyTom Offline
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I can't deny that James was certainly a generous patron of the arts, especially when they could be used for political ends. As well as his patronage of Shakespeare's company, he put on lavish masques at court, with texts by poets like Ben Jonson and costumes, sets and machinery often designed by Inigo Jones. These masques were supposed to emphasise the divinely ordained rightness of power in the hands of the king and obedience on the part of his subjects. They were magnificently conceived, but in practice they may have been a little less mpressive than the King hoped. This is an account by Sir John Harington of an entertainment that was put on for a state visit of James's brotehr-in-law, Christian IV of Denmark, in 1606:

"One day a great feast was held, and after dinner the representation of Solomon’s Temple and the coming of the Queen of Sheba was made – or, as I may better say, was meant to have been made – before their Majesties, by device of the Earl of Salisbury and others.

But alas! As all earthly things do fail to poor mortals in enjoyment, so did prove our presentment hereof. The lady who did play the Queen’s part did carry most precious gifts to both their Majesties, but forgetting the steps arising to the canopy, overset her caskets into his Danish Majesty’s lap, and fell at his feet, though I rather think it was in his face. Much was the hurry and confusion; cloths and napkins were at hand to make all clean. His Majesty then got up and would dance with the Queen of Sheba; but he fell down and humbled himself before her, and was carried to an inner chamber and laid on a bed of state, which was not a little defiled with the presents of the Queen which had been bestowed on his garments, such as wine, cream, jelly, beverage, cakes, spices and other good matters.

The entertainment and show went forward and most of the presenters went backward or fell down; wine did so occupy their upper chambers. Now did appear in rich dress Hope, Faith and Charity. Hope did essay to speak, but wine rendered her endeavours so feeble that she withdrew, and hoped the King would excuse her brevity. Faith was then all alone (for I am sure she was not joined with good works), and left the Court in a staggering condition. Charity came to the King’s feet and seemed to cover the multitude of sins her sisters had committed. In some sort she made obeisance and brought gifts, but said she would return home again, as there was no gift which Heaven had not already given his Majesty. She then returned to Hope and Faith, who were sick and spewing in the lower hall.

Next came Victory, in bright armour, and presented a rich sword to the King - who did not accept it but put it by with his hand – and by a strange medley of versification did endeavour to make suit to the King. But Victory did not triumph for long, for after much lamentable utterance she was led away like a silly captive and laid to sleep on the outer steps of the antechamber.

Now did Peace make entry, and strive to get foremost to the King, but I grieve to tell how great wrath she did discover unto her attendants, and (much contrary to her own semblance) most rudely made war with her olive branch, and laid on the pates of those who did oppose her coming.

I have much marvelled at these strange pageantries, and they do bring to my remembrance what passed of this sort in our Queen’s days, of which I was sometime an humble presenter and assistant; but never did I see such lack of good order, discretion and sobriety as I have now done."

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#113387 - Tue Dec 18 2001 10:59 PM Re: Who was the worst monarch to rule over England?
ladymacb29 Offline
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I say Richard III was probably the worst... Although I'm not too good at the history before the Tudors so I don't know all the details.
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#113388 - Thu Jun 24 2004 08:52 AM Re: Who was the worst monarch to rule over England?
_elbereth_ Offline
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I think Richard III might have got a bit of a raw deal Shakespeare absolutely crucifies him, but when he wrote the play, Henry the VII's grand-daughter was on the throne, so it was probably politically correct to make him out to be a monster. He probably wasnt very good, but then he probably wasnt that bad either, at least not compared to some of the others.
Mary I was pretty bad, because she thought the reason that she could not have children was that God was punishing her for allowing Protestants to live, so she tried to exterminate them. A bit extreme.
James I as well, for going for the Divine Right of kings angle.

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#113389 - Thu Jun 24 2004 01:06 PM Re: Who was the worst monarch to rule over England?
bloomsby Offline
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There is a long-standing tradition that rates King John as the very worst of the whole lot - after all, it wasn't for nothing that the barons forced him to sign Magna Carta - and King Stephen a very close second. (See the section of the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle that deals with his reign). Since their reigns these two names have been avoided like the plague by reigning monarchs.

That said, I' ve no time for James I or Charles I, either. Both were pompous fools, almost half-witted and downright offensive.

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#113390 - Fri Jun 25 2004 10:35 PM Re: Who was the worst monarch to rule over England?
romeomikegolf Offline
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Quote:

I say Richard III was probably the worst




Richard has been vilified for hundreds of years. Although only on the throne for a couple of years he is now generally regarded as being a reasonable monarch.

Don't get me started on him too much, I was born less than a mile from where he lost his crown.
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#113391 - Wed Jul 14 2004 02:50 AM Re: Who was the worst monarch to rule over England?
ali2004 Offline
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From the point of view of being a good monarch for England I would have thought Richard I came pretty low down on the list. He was only in England for about 6 months of a 10 year reign and he regarded it mostly as a source of revenue to fund his crusades. Then he got himself captured and England had to pay to fund a huge ransom for his release.

The notion of him as a good and fair King undermined by his evil brother is a myth perpetuated by the Robin Hood legend.

Ali

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#113392 - Wed Jul 14 2004 03:05 AM Re: Who was the worst monarch to rule over England?
Copago Offline
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Quote:

I was born less than a mile from where he lost his crown.





bit careless of him ...

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#113393 - Wed Jul 14 2004 01:32 PM Re: Who was the worst monarch to rule over England?
Anonymous
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ethelred the unready,the name says it all

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#113394 - Fri Jul 16 2004 05:44 PM Re: Who was the worst monarch to rule over England?
bloomsby Offline
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Richard I. Agreed, he refused to do the job while gleefully pocketing the pay, and had the cheek to ask for even more - rather like some modern bosses who lead their companies close to disaster and then greedily demand "performance related bonuses".

However, the real baddies in the kingship game were those who did the job, at least in a manner of speaking, and made a dog's breakfast of it.

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#113395 - Sat Jul 17 2004 06:12 AM Re: Who was the worst monarch to rule over England?
susanV Offline
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I would go for Henry VI. His reign was a complete fiasco and he suffered from bouts of mental illness. He lost all the French possesions previously acquired by his father Henry V, and his bad leadership ultimately led to the "War of the Roses". That's not exactly what I'd call a skillful monarch.
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#113396 - Mon Jul 19 2004 03:47 AM Re: Who was the worst monarch to rule over England?
_elbereth_ Offline
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There are a lot of candidates for the title; William Rufus, Stephen, Richards I, II and III, John, Edward II, Henry VI, Mary I, James I and II, Charles I, Georges I and IV. And Edward VIII, although he doesnt really count. Take your pick

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#113397 - Fri Jul 23 2004 03:04 AM Re: Who was the worst monarch to rule over England?
ali2004 Offline
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However, the real baddies in the kingship game were those who did the job, at least in a manner of speaking, and made a dog's breakfast of it.




Are they ? I agree that none of the people named here were exacly good kings, but surely a king did the job badly is better than one who didnt even try.

my point about Richard I is that he didnt even care what happened to England during his reign. Admittedly nothing drastically awful did happen but what precisely would he have done if it had...?


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#113398 - Sat Jul 24 2004 09:11 AM Re: Who was the worst monarch to rule over England?
chris42 Offline
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As stated earlier Aethelred the Unready was a real non-starter. To keep the Danes sweet he paid them off every now and again to keep out of the Southern Saxon kingdoms. The Danes, of course, kept coming back for more. This financial appeasement ranks him up there with the worst of the English monarchs in my opinion.
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#113399 - Sat Jul 24 2004 04:57 PM Re: Who was the worst monarch to rule over England?
bloomsby Offline
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I half accept the point made about Richard I, except that there's a case for regarding him as a "non-king" ... I don't understand why England ever raised the money to pay the ransom for this wretch. After all, I'd value him at less than one eighth of penny. He could have been left to languish in captivity.

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#113400 - Wed Aug 11 2004 03:38 PM Re: Who was the worst monarch to rule over England?
Stew Offline
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Poor old Ethelraed the Unraed gets a poor press, it's true. For example, history books often date the first payment of Danegeld to buy off the Viking raiders to his reign (after the devastating defeat at Maldon), but in fact the practice was already common.

He was responsible for some significant advances in the development of law and order in Saxon England, including the introduction of the Shire Reeves or Sheriffs. I think there are several more (or less!) promising contenders, and it's hard to pick out the worst. Richard I is a very strong contender, though it's true that he almost rules himself out in the terms of the question by effectively failing to rule over the country at all!

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#113401 - Sun Jun 12 2005 09:49 AM Re: Who was the worst monarch to rule over England
LiamR Offline
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I never thought Henry VIII was very good. He took a rich Catholic country and turned it into a bankrupt Protestant country. He executed loads of people . . . yet people still love him.

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#113402 - Sat Jul 02 2005 01:01 PM Re: Who was the worst monarch to rule over England
buck5ley Offline
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Quote:

I never thought Henry VIII was very good. He took a rich Catholic country and turned it into a bankrupt Protestant country. He executed loads of people . . . yet people still love him.


LOL. Good "zinger", Liam. However, you must remember that Henry did these things with flair, sparking any number of large and small screen portrayals. As Ireland's own Wilde man said "In all matters of importance, style not content matters most." Sadly, any number of historians and social commentators agree with Oscar. There were many bad English rulers from the unready Ethelbert, through the feckless Stephen, the hysterical warrior Richard I, the demented Henry VI, to the mean James I at least.
It's so hard to pick out the worst (or the best, for that matter) because History is written by only the winners. Also, The Bard is indeed Immortal, but as a suck-up to the entrenched royalty, he was pretty good too. A visit to the British National Gallery shows the great artist Reubens was just as bad,with his cloying ascent into heaven of James I's ..er.."favourite" Lord Buckingham. Sure makes you appreciate the objectivity of Holbein's portraits

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