Whenever I'm talking to somebody who's not from the Netherlands (or from some country that borders it, for all that matters) I never know what I can expect regarding their knowledge about "my" country. I mean, I don't want to assume they know things they don't, but on the other hand I don't want to bore them with explaining stuff they already know. So how about helping me by telling what you know about the Netherlands? Or what your prejudices are?

The Netherlands is the first country to have recognized the sovereignty of the U.S.A.. On November 16, 1776 it fired its cannons in reply to a salute by the Continental Navy ship Andrew Doria which was entering St. Eustatius, a Dutch port in the West Indies.

lo78, interesting topic. I have, unfortunately, never been to the 'low countries', but would very much like to go one day...maybe soon. I have a Dutch friend who gave me a book called 'The Un'dutch'ables' as a gift a couple years back. I must admit that I didn't get to read it substantially, but I did sample a few chapters here and there. The Dutch seem to me, if I may generalize here, to be a highly educated, liberal and open-minded populace. It always seems that the Dutch are on the cusp of any new social experimental movement, legalized euthanasia for human beings, as an example. I appreciate that about the people of the Netherlands, the promotion of the advancement and progression of culture. Of course, cultural theorists and other social scientists would argue that there is no evolutionary progress, per se, in society. But at least the Dutch are willing to experiment in that regard, creating a rather libertarian atmosphere vis-a-vis civil society.

Another somewhat stereotypical vision that I have of the Dutch is of a people who are open-minded and very much interested in other people and other cultures. I think that is a legacy of your history, as a colonial and trading power and as a smaller European power that seems to have, from time to time, had to negotiate its existance.

I really look forward to paying a visit to your country some day to meet the people, see the art and scenary and to try the interesting food. I will avoid the little salty candies that some Dutch people eat, however...that has been my only bad experience with Dutch cuisine!

P.S. Ritch...I have always understood it to be Morocco that first officially recognized the USA...however, I don't have a source handy to 'prove' such a thing. Anyone else know about this?

lo. Here in Norwich, in the part of England that juts out towards the Netherlands, your country doesn't seem at all remote and of course I've visited the Netherlands a number of times: Amsterdam three times, The Hague once and, yes, also Groningen once, too.

I'm never keen on stereotypes or images, but I suppose one can't manage without them. I've long been particularly impressed by your *outstanding* education system. Certainly, many Dutch school-leavers have had a very thorough, uncomprisingly academic secondary education. I'm aware, of course, that the Netherlands have an unusually wide range of schools. Certainly, I see the Dutch education system as better than that of Germany, France and Denmark, for example.

Yes, of course I also think of the Dutch as liberal, too ... but don't we all?

Stereotypes and cliches again, but a remarkable people. Outstanding courage to overcome adversity, not the least the problems of holding back the sea , always a danger in the Netherlands.
Yes, I agree, an outstanding percentage of people speaking perfect English (enough to put the average Brit to shame) , a wonderful Royal family, much admired for their warmth and ease of contact with their people.
A treasure chest of art! Expertise with flowers. Gorgeous dairy products. Lastly, but not leastly... very romantic men (I base this on my wide experience of three dutch Boyfriends in my youth . They were lovely!)
I can't think of any prejudices...

It almost seems as if I asked you to tell me only the *good* things about the Netherlands ! Nice to hear you're thoughts are that positive. Maybe afraid to bring me the bad news? I can handle it ! Well, at least now I know that this little country I live in doesn't go by unnoticed...

You should know me well enough by now, that the typical Libran that I am, I'll always weigh the two sides, it's enough to drive anyone sane up a wall, but you'll know I've looked at every side!
I do it to my own country, and my "adopted" country (although recently I think I'll disinherit this place for the time being!).

I also have visited your country many times. I haven't traveled as much as I'd like in the Netherlands as it was either the landing place or the departure place, but we always took a few days on either end if possible.
I have traveled more in Flanders.

As to my studies of the Netherlands, the most depth I had myself was during art historical studies, and I actually was forced to decypher articles in Dutch for my subject matter, the mother in child as a secular subject in Western art as it is one of the crucial countries for that image.

If I were to tell you the bad stuff, the stereotypes that you might hear if you got off a plane and traveled somewhere in the States, you'd hear about your wooden shoes, the tulips, the beer, the Dutch treat, and windmills. But you can't deny they are there!
Then Amsterdam is synonymous with partying amongst European youth as well as others I think.
The hash cakes available in the cafés are legendary. My students in America always evoked this. Seems like Prague is taking over now though! I did visa requests so I'd hear things.
As we often used KLM we found the Dutch very polite, very cordial and business like.
Their English is impeccable and I just cited them as an example of how language teaching should be.
Their accents are so perfect.

The bad things? Well, here goes, as I said before, the open drug use by foreigners that is tolerated shocked me. Though I'd be open to liberalizing drug laws, I was shocked to see people taking advantage of the tolerance and students just totally slobbering away and rocking back and forth on street corners! I mean, they were well dressed kids, I'm a college teacher so I recognize the typical student and yet, they were just totally wasted!
If it were just drugs and alcohol then that's one thing, but I always pray they take care of themselves when they party this hardy! I mean for unprotected sex.
So that is why Amsterdam shocked me.
The prostitution didn't shock me, I suppose it's normal. And I'm told they receive decent benefits etc. I hope so.
The sex shops next to the souvenir shops were kind of funny.

I once spoke of the contrasts, I meant that historically, you have represented tolerance and yet, strong moral stances.
In art, we speak of the difference between Jan Steen's bar scenes and someone who portrays the virtue of the Dutch woman.

The real stereotypes are the cleanliness thing, the Dutch housewife is portrayed throughout art as scrubbing the steps!

Now, and don't take this wrong, you asked us after all, in France the Dutch are seen as good people, good customers etc, but they are know for not being generous with their tourism revenue! This means that they often tell the story of the Dutch with their campers or trailers and they have all they need to eat for their holidays in the caravan! I heard one Frenchman call them snails with their houses on their backs. (then again they can't talk!)
They hardly buy anything from the French supermarkets! Many campgrounds are full of Dutch, especially in the remote areas of the South where they must feel so good to be in the sun without much rain and nature!
They aren't know for their drunken bouts, nor for being very expansive.
They usually speak quite a bit of French too.
Their cars are rarely flashy and nor are they.

Yes I have stayed in a few places and I've also dealt with the hotels there for some of my jobs.
I really appreciate them from a personal and business standpoint.

In one way, it reminds me of a child in a family, who is dependable, who never makes a fuss and who works hard.

The thing I also know, is that they are extremely good at being the intermediaries in business. It is a role they play well.

When I was younger in school in the States, I had a Dutch friend whose parents had immigrated, they were all dairy farmers in my area. She'd tell us things about living there. So I never bought all those tulip windmill stories.

Oh yeah! The bikes! Never saw so many as in Holland!

Jazz, my source is 'The First Salute' by Barbara W.Tuchman.

Oh lo! Do you really want to know the bad images??
Well, first two probably slightly out-of-date ones:

1. Being rather loud.

2. Smoking, yes smoking - in the Reformed Church only - during services. (I'm told this went off of fashion in the 1950s). Was it really true?

3. 'The Dutch' have a long-standing reputation for being completely shamelessly preoccupied with making money ... Voltaire alludes to it in 'Candide'. Now, a little anecdote from my own personal experience. About 18 months ago I was trying to book a hotel room in Amsterdam before setting off. I discovered I'd left it rather late, so I had to phone round about six hotels +. At some point I misdialed and found I'd reached a private household in error. Imagine my utter amazement when the man at the other end of the line went to considerable lengths to try to *persuade* me to stay with him, saying it would be much cheaper than a hotel, blah, blah, blah.
If it had been a former Eastern bloc country I wouldn't have been at all surprised, but Holland just isn't that sort of country. He didn't sound as if he was a kindly person wanting to help me, either.

However, some would argue that 'shamelessness' about money-making has the great advantage of being *unhypocritical*. On balance, it has certain advantages by comparison with attitudes in some other countries, where money-making is dressed up as serving some kind of 'high' moral purpose.

Please don't misunderstand me. All these points, if true, pale into insignifance by comparison with the many things I find positive about the Netherlands. The idea of smoking during church services is so out of line with practice elsewhere that it rather appeals to my sense of humour and sometimes I myself rather like sheer shamelessness - about money, sex and drugs. It's makes a pleasant change and is relaxing.
It's also worth remembering that what one person sees as 'shameless', another sees as 'honest' and 'open'.
Btw, another positive thing. When I last visted the Rijksmuseum I made a point of also visiting the section on Dutch history. I was most impressed to find that the colonial past was dealt with in a matter-of-fact way without the kind of 'political correctness' that now surrounds the subject here in Britain.

As it's not my habit to trust "cliches" such as
"the Dutch being liberal", I wonder if it is not so that the so-called liberal attitude is more for export than for local use.I was told there is in the smaller cities much more 'mutual social control' than meets the eye.
My visits to Holland have also taught me that you cannot really speak of 'the Dutch'.People from Limburg and Brabant are quite different from those living in Holland.
Personally I like to visit the Netherlands.
The Mondriaan-outlook of the landscape.
The sense of humour you find in places such as the Jordaan. The brown cafes in Amsterdam.
The type of small shops you still find.
The authorities seem to provide well for public utilities such as museums,libraries.

Some things I dont like about "some Dutch" are not really typical of "the Dutch", but rather of townspeople. Some tend to be self-advertising, but in that they don't differ from our own local Antwerp bigheads.
It's often said they are too brainy and emotionally cold.Especially the Friesians I met seemed to dislike a certain arrogance among the Randstad-Dutch. A quote from a Friesian shopkeeper, an elderly woman living close to the border with North- Holland :"They are smart, but not always as smart as they think they are." ( A typical borderpeople comment?)
When travelling, they tend to be noisy. On the other hand they are great travellers.During the summer holidays you find them everywhere in Europe.
My French friends call them 'les nouvelles lunes' because of their NL-plates. They are not too popular in certain areas of South-France because they tend to buy any plot of land they can find.
But most of those things I have not really experienced myself.
To me the Netherlands are not just Holland. There is Breda, Eindhoven,Maastricht,Staphorst, Gieten, Zwolle,Zutphen, Thorn, Middelburg,Bronkhorst all towns and villages I like at least as much as 'de Randstad'.

What I will probably never like about the Netherlands is the atmosphere of some of their churches.See the paintings by Saenredam.No traces of life anymore there.
Well again I should not generalize.A long list of exceptions could be made up.
Delft, Gouda have churches where I feel more warmth.

Hard to say why I always liked to travel in Holland ...even though I felt better at home among the French.

By the way it's not true you cannot eat well in "Holland": go to a fishrestaurant when in doubt.

One good thing about the Netherlands I absolutely must mention: it's such fun to drive through the countryside. Especially when you are on a causeway.And the many times you have to be ferried across a river adds extra charm to the driving.

All in all, I think you don't know a country if you haven't lived in it.
So I don't mind being contradicted on any of the opinions I expressed.

I've always wanted to go to the Netherands, so I've been reading with interest what people are writing here. I loved Bloombsy's delightfully bizarre experience on the phone and I thought Flem's observation that what we from the outside see as 'Dutch' is actually a collection of small, somewhat culturally distinct collectives, was probably pretty astute. Having never been, however, I was particularly interested in what Bruyere had to say about Dutch tourists (or summer residents) in France. I've heard this before from both French people and international-Dutch who are hypercritical of their less cosmopolitan countrymen. On the other hand, the behaviour that loses the the Dutch points in that country - clannishness, a lack of curiosity, bringing their own food and being tight with money - are all considered kind of respectable around these parts. In general, Dutch tourists are relatively well-liked in the Czech Republic for the very same reasons that the French frown on them.

In general, if I try to seperate what might be called general 'tourist' behaviour from distinctly 'Dutch' tourist behaviour, I can only come up with two things. I love to go to the opera and I go a lot, and I have to say that only the Dutch consistently seem to show up dressed for the occasion. If you're going to attend a major theatre in a large city in Europe (or anywhere), odds are that showing up dressed to clean up the back garden isn't going to win you points in anyone's book. If you're going to err, err on the side of caution and pack a jacket or skirt. Or at least something clean. The Dutch seem to understand this just fine.

The other thing about the Dutch I only have on hearsay. Quite a few students who work in hotels or restaurants for the summer have told me the same thing. When they begin speaking to German tourists in German, the Germans are inclined to, well, not notice this and continue to use pidgen and jab with their finger at the menu. In contrast, once Dutch tourists understands that their waiter/taxi driver/guide speaks a language they speak (German or English), the conversation proceeds along normal lines.

[ 04-27-2002, 02:39 AM: Message edited by: Dobrov ]

I hope I didn't get myself into trouble on that thing, but hey, I'm not defending French people unless they need my help!
The French are critical of everybody and first and foremost themselves, we'll just let them flagellate themselves and wear hairshirts a little more.
But I think they like the Dutch as a good solid tourist but wish sometimes the Dutch would spend more money!
Can't have everything though!
The Germans spend a lot more on the whole, the Italians are pretty flashy, the English, sorry I know I'll be in real trouble now, but boy do they ever take advantage of the lower liquor prices! I know English people here who drink wine at every meal! I mean they probably wouldn't bother at home, but here, it's cheaper than mineral water so why not?
The Belgians they are joked about, the legendary quarrels between them aren't really that bad, but they are good customers too, and the Spanish, they aren't that visible a tourist group here.
I see all of these folks here in the South as with my face, everyone and their dog asks me directions!

Another anecdote, when you camp in Europe, the Dutch are in all the places in all the countries, and they don't mind the lack of space, as they are used to a densely populated country. We woke up one morning and they were about two feet away from our tent, yet there were other places.
But it didn't bother us, they are respectful.

No, don't worry , Bruyere - it's just that I think the way one views the behaviour of large national groups on holiday in one's country can depend on a miriad of factors - some clear, some not. For instance, speaking of the French, as tourists they are viewed here as kind of exotic and interesting probably becuase they speak French and there aren't many of them. In Quebec though they are utterly loathed. They tell the residents that the French they speak is a 'corruption' (I LOVE that word) of 'real' French and they pretend not to understand that the tip is not added to the bill - a practice the uncommonly generous Quebecquois consider barbaric. Yet in western Florida, where many Quebecquois go on holiday, the Americans consider them just as rude and tight-fisted as they accuse the French of being!

German tourists in CZ are traditionally considered to be loud, pushy, money-flashing cruds with the cultural sensitivity of newts. I would take this a lot more seriously if American tourists weren't viewed in the same light by Canadians - probably for the same reasons, most of which I believe have more to do with major Czech and Canadian insecurity rather than with the tourists in question.

Also, you raise a point. Where do Spanish tourists go? I've seen very few.

well i don't know too much but i know my rabbit is a Netherland dwarf--the cutest rabbits bred i might add!

I really don't know much about the Netherlands. But I must say, when I was 5-7 years old, my caregiver was from the Netherlands...and she was wonderful! They were our neighbours. She had four children and jubjub and me! That woman could knit with four needles whilst squeezing the little "colour button" into the margarine and cooking up a meal at the stove, all at the same time! She had teens and toddlers (though her hubby was a rather dour person)...She made doll clothes and the entire family wardrobe! She took us to the Sinter Klaus (sp?) production around Christmas with her family...and exposed us to many things we hadn't seen before! She would explain the things in the garden, which my mom wouldn't have even known about back then....and I loved her. Well, that's only one person...but I had a good impression! AND...her house and property WERE immaculate. So if that's thought to be a stereotype, I dunno! Much too young to think about politics at the time, I can only assume that such a well rounded, intelligent, fair and sweet individual must have evolved from something wonderful!

(From the Travellers' Dictionary of Quotation)

Aldous Huxley:"My love of geometry prepared me to feel a special affection for Holland. For the Dutch landscape has all the qualities that make geometry so delightful. A tour in Holland is a tour through the first book of Euclid. Over a country that is the ideal plane surface of the geometry books, the roads and the canals trace out the shortest distances between point and point."

The Duke of Alva:"The inhabitants of the Netherlands are the nearest Neighbours to Hell because they live the lowest."

Charles Tenant: " This may be called the Dutchman's creed: Small gains, and little risk."

George Canning in a despatch in cipher to the English Ambassador in Holland: " In matters of commerce the fault of the Dutch is: offering too little and asking too much."

Aphra Behn: "Dutchmen have no soul for anything but Gain, no pleasure but 'Interest' or the Bottle, but in Affairs of Love go to the most sacred part of it more brutally than the most sordid of their four-footed brethren."

Samuel Taylor Coleridge: "As a nation they are the most ancient ally, the alter idem of England, the best deserving of the cause of freedom and religion and morality of any people in Europe."

Up to you which 'cliche' you prefer.
Mine would be that they are level-headed, except on certain days of the year when they celebrate royalty and after winning soccer-cups .Anyway, and when they do go crazy, they go crazier than most.
A note of caution: in the eighteenth century they still were considered part of the "Leo Belgicus" as is illustrated by Mark Akenside in his poem
"On Leaving Holland" 1744 when he calls Leyden the "Belgian Muse's sober seat".

There seem to be several views here in the eastern US, depending on the outlook and background of the viewer. These (at least as far as I can discern) go roughly as follows:

a) generic 18-30 year old male. The Netherlands is probably one of the two best countries in the world. All the women are blonde. Even if you can't pick one up, you can go to the red-light district in Amsterdam and you'll get a blonde there.
The government forces you to smoke high-grade marijuana at their expense. When you're not going to bed with beautiful blonde women, you're drinking beer or eating very good cheese. The women have cute accents, speak otherwise perfect English, and are less depressed than Swedish women, probably because Dutch directors don't go around making movies about guys playing chess with Death. Even the Queen used to be fairly good-looking, and maybe blonde. There are good museums there, but who wants to look at paintings when there are lots of blonde women around?

b. Dullnormal: The Netherlands is very clean. The people speak English, but with funny accents. It's somewhere up there between Finland and that other place. It's not the same country as Holland, that's in Belgium or one of those little countries there. There is yet another country somewhere called Dutch-land, but that's not on the tour. The people are blonde. You can eat cheese there. The tour guide will take you to museums. You can see pictures there. Some of the pictures were by a guy whose last name was "Rembrandt"

Redneck or far-right fringe nut: Nethrlands an immoral country where the people never go to church. Though occupied during WWII, most of 'em probably collaborated.
They run a crazy welfare state where income tax rates exceed 115% of income and the government forces everyone to have lots of abortions. The people have grown lazy under the welfare state and take 5 years off on full pay when they break a pinky. They talk funny. They have money invested in too many of our businesses over here and exert a sinister if insidious grip on our country. Van Buren and Teddy Roosevelt, they were Dutch, right? And FDR was a Dutch Jew. Yeah, you heard me. His real name was Rosenfeld.

Lefties and Liberals: The Netherlands is a wonderful country where the people never go to church. Unfortunately, they still have a monarch. Not only have they not beheaded their royals, (like La Belle France) they even seem to like them.
They have a justifiably high standard of living. They had a fairly good record during the occupation, unlike Croatia, say.
However, the Afrikaners are actually Dutch people who speak a simple form of the language and the Netherlands is somehow vaguely responsible for their depredations in S.
Africa Dutch people stole most of New York from indigenous peoples. However, the Rijksmuseum and Mauritshuis are excellent museums. Dutch painters knocked out wonderful genre paintings because the church wasn't underwriting them or otherwise breathing down their neck. Steen and Hals were geniuses. Rembrandt was his FIRST name. Don't know where to stand on the Pim Fortuyn issue (he was a xenophobe, but also gay), so you just talk about the murder.
(Under-40's: Van Halen is a great guitarist; Over-40's: Jan Akkerman was a great guitarist.)

Hope this adds some perspective.

Coolupway, thanks for your satire, which is simply brilliant. It's the wittiest and most entertaining contribution I've read in the Forums. With just a little tidying up it, you ought to be able to get it published - either in the Netherlands or the US (or possibly elsewhere). Seriously, you really ought to try!

LOL!! Great story, coolupway!

Thanks for the kind words, bloomsby & leau. I always knew I picked the wrong continent to get born on. Seriously, to this aging and often disillusioned observer, the Netherlands has always appeared a beacon of tolerance. It is the home of Spinoza, and the place where brave gentiles hid Anne Frank.
While the rest of Europe was off starting wars about silly religious snits and absurd questions of royal succession, the Dutch were creating a wonderful, vital society (with an actual middle class) and churning out great artists. One of our historians, Simon Schama, wrote a quite interesting (if long!) book about the Dutch golden age called "The Embarassment of Riches." Rembrandt is a secular saint here. Someone just published a book based on a detailed analysis of his famous painting of Bathsheba (actually his companion, Hendrickje Stoffels) and concludes that at the time the work was painted, Hendrickje was actually suffering from breast cancer, explaining her death a short time later.
The Dutch left their stamp on NY State's Hudson Valley, where we have such places as Kaaterskill, Walkill, Fishkill, etc. (The criminal sector here knows most of these places as they all seem to house state prisons!) FDR was from Hyde Park in Dutchess (the spelling is correct) County. Dutchess County is also home to Marist College, alma mater of one Rik Smits,a 7'4" basketball player from Eindhoven. He played in the NBA for a number of years, made the All-Star team late in his career, and was known to be an all-around good guy. Since he couldn't jump, they couldn't call him the Flying Dutchman, though he was known for a time as the Dunking Dutchman. He has retired and now lives in upstate NY, in one of the least densely populated counties in the state -- a far cry from his native land!
Though most people here would consider the Dutch on the whole rather pleasant and stereotype-free, 'twas not ever thus. We do have such phrases in the language as dutch uncle (unrelentingly critical person); dutch courage (which comes from drinking) and dutch treat (everyone pays his/her own way). In the 70's, a humor magazine here, the National Lampoon, utilized these to great comic effect in a couple of paranoid-newsletter takeoffs called "Americans United To Beat The Dutch" , which posited (among other things) that the Dutch were going to infiltrate the US and plant tulips all over the place, all under the watchful eye of crypto-Dutchman Mijnheer Richard Nixon!

Rik Smits is very well know here, because everybody is proud to have had a Dutch guy playing in the NBA! Even though basketball is a very (I don't know how you say it) little sport here...

You really do know a lot about the Netherlands. I don't think I'd know that much about the United States... Did you by any chance study Dutch history? Because that would make me feel better!

Last month I met a woman from Mississippi and she asked me where I was from. When I answered "the Netherlands" she asked me to point it out on her map. It was a map of Germany and the Czech Republic...! So anyone who knows more than that is my hero!

I for one studied Dutch history with my art history studies, and I fully enjoyed it. Because we share so much with them in America, I mean you are part of our history and my own family comes from the same roots, it helps me understand things in America.

What springs immediately to my mind is Sinter Klaus, Black Peter and candies in the childrens' wooden shoes at Christmas time. I had a Dutch babysitter when I was small and she took lefois and I to a Christmas party. Lefois and I had a great time!

I am also familiar with most of the facts already listed above, but I thought I'd mention this little tidbit. Maybe you can explain a bit more about the Christmas traditions. I remember a little song also "Sinter Klaus capunsha....." I know I'm spelling everything wrong, so I'm spelling phonetically!

I'm flattered that you think I studied Dutch history; I didn't, but being the old guy that I am, have had the opportunity to do some reading about the country. Mr. Smits (is he actually a "Hendrik"?) was for many reasons my favorite hoopster (I'm also tall and not terribly coordinated) and I stopped following the NBA when he retired. About some other European countries I am profoundly ignorant. As concerns that Slavic country you were shown on the map, for example, I know only that it produces gaunt tennis players and guys who awake from uneasy dreams to find themselves transformed into giant cockroaches.
The U.S.? Like your country we share a border with a rich nation which is divided by an ethnic and linguistic rift. We make gentle fun of the Canadians as a rather dull, excessively polite and notably modest people; it is said they find us Yanks loud, crass and overly concerned with money. Canada's two main languages are French and English, and the joke on both sides of the world's longest undefended border is that the Prime Minister, Jean Chretien, speaks neither of them.

You are absolutely right about that last bit, Coolupway - spoken as a true blue Canadian, of course!