Hi:

I submitted a quiz several days ago (World Monarchies #67018) and the editor and i disagree on Question #4:

What is the Law, originating with the Franks, that prohibits females from accession to the throne?

I've re-phrased the question once after researching the topic further based on bloomsby's notes to me, and verifying my answer with the Merriam-Webster Dictionary.

Bloomsby 0claims that he/she has never heard the word used for other than a central European monarchy, yet I can find no documentation on this. I'm reluctant to submit questons for which documented proof cannot be found.

What do I do?

Hi I don't edit in history but I edit in several places. And I am an art historian by training, amongst other things.
These things do come up from time to time and when we see that there is a question of interpretation or something we feel needs to be backed up a bit more, we ask you.
It's much better to do this at the editing stage than afterwards or having quiztakers bombard you with correction notices. It's basically our job.
Have you tried just a random Google search for your term?
I don't recommend indiscriminate Googling for several reasons but if there is scholarship on your topic, it might pop up.
I just tried a similar term to the answer to your question and came up with about ten citations.
Bear in mind that we do have specialists in many areas on the staff here so we often consult each other for advice.
So see if your term pops up in the right context in a random search on a search engine.

Another thing you could do is post this question in the "I Need an Answer" forum. There are a lot of people who visit there because they enjoy sharing what they know, or looking for answers that seem impossible.

Whichever of you is right, and it is possible that you could BOTH be because these things do happen, it's nice to see the discussion handled civilly. Kudos to you both!

[ 02-14-2002: Message edited by: LadyCaitriona ]

Presumably we're talking about the Salic Law.

The Salic law was, strictly speaking, the complete legal code of the Salian or Western Franks who conquered Gaul in the 5th century. It had great authority because of the dominance of the Franks in Western Europe, and influenced many later Germanic codes. It was set down in writing (in Latin) in the reign of Clovis in the early sixth century. It was primarily a criminal code, with a long list of penalties for various crimes, but included some civil provisions.Among these was the rule that daughters could not inherit land.

Much later, this provision (the "Salic law of succession") was invoked in dynastic disputes to deny the right of women to reign.

In France,when the direct male Capetian line died out with Charles IV (son of Philip the Fair) in 1328, the French nobles proclaimed Philip of Valois (Philip the Fair's nephew, the son of his brother) as king. The claim of Edward III of England, who was Philip the Fair's grandson, was rejected since he was the son of Philip's daughter and not the son of his son. During the 14th and 15th centuries French jurists, justifying the exclusion from the throne of women and their descendants, sometimes mentioned the Salic law among their arguments. But the main reason was said to be custom. It was also argued that kingship had a priestly character and therefore could not be exercised by a woman.

As time went on the Salic law was given more weight in legal arguments.In 1593 it was expressly invoked to deny the claim to the French throne of Isabella, infanta of Spain. From then on it was regarded as a fundamental law of the kingdom.

In Spain, the Salic law of succession was promulgated by Philip V (the first King of Spain to come from the French Bourbon dynastry) in 1713, but rescinded by Ferdinand VII in 1830.

In Savoy it was introduced by Amadeus V in the early 14th century.

The position in the Holy Roman Empire is not clear to me. The Imperial crown was technically an elective office but from the late 15th century was in fact held hereditarily by the Hapsburgs. The same was perhaps true of some of the other Hapsburg crowns. Charles VI's Pragmatic Sanction ensured that his daughter, Maria Theresa, succeeded to the crowns of Austria, Hungary and Bohemia, but she could not rule the Empire: the Imperial crown was held successively by her husband Francis (Franz) I and her son Joseph II.
In Hanover the Salic law applied until Hanover was absorbed into Prussia after the war of 1866. Hence, in 1837, King William IV of the United Kingdom, who was also Elector Wilhelm Heinrich of Hanover,was succeeded by Victoria in Britain but by Ernest Duke of Cumberland in Hanover.

The Salic law of succession was never recognized in England, Scotland or in the Scandinavian countries.

This is based on Encyclopaedia Britannica and the Oxford Companion to Law. It suggests that, where women and the descendants were barred from succeeding to thrones, the Salic law was said to be at least one of the reasons.

I did warn you we had a few folks here who get their teeth into a subject, Valois! I was trying to save your question though. This is why the history and geography section was created, to keep us all off the streets.

Flemmie and I have had these things over sauces and recipes before and other sundry linguistic questions, so it's not surprising.

Thanks for all of your help, it's appreciated.

I've re-phrased the question and re-submittd the quiz.

And this is what Shakespeare has to say about the Salic law via the Archbishop of Canterbury addressing Henry V ( in Henry V, Act One, Scene 2, lines 40-70):
"There is no bar
To make against your highness's claim to France,
But this, which they produce from Pharamond:
In terram Salicam mulieres ne succedant -
' No woman shall succeed in Salic land.'
Which Salic land, the French unjustly gloze
To be the realm of France, and Pharamond
The founder of this law and female bar.
Yet their own authors faithfully affirm,
That the land Salic is in Germany,
Between the floods of Sala and of Elbe;
Where Charles the Great having subdued the Saxons,
There left behind and settled certain French;
Who, holding in disdain the German women
For some dishonest manners of their life,
Established then this law: to wit, no female
Should be inheritrix in Salic land;
Which Salic, as I said, 'twixt Elbe and Sala,
Is at this day called Meissen.
Then doth it well appear , the Salic law
Was not devised for the realm of France;
Nor did the French possess the Salic land
Until four hunded one and twenty years
After defunction of King Pharamond
Idly supposed the founder of this law,
Who died within the year of our redemption,
Four hundred twenty-six; and Charles the Great
Subdued the Saxons, and did seat the French
Beyond the river Sala, in the year
Eight hundred five."

My key point was very simply this: I don't think that 'Salic Law' is used outside a *European* context to indicate monarchies where women are barred from inheriting the throne. At the risk of being a bore or worse I also think that dictionaries often need taking 'cum grano salis' - nothing to do with Salic Law.

To give an example. As far as I'm aware, the Saudi monarchy cannot pass to a woman, but to call that 'Salic' (except in a jocular context) strikes me as a shade misleading. It's local law and custom that matters here ...