Yes, of course you're correct, I totally understand that. Just hate seeing records by someone who left the team and am thrilled when one of them finally goes down (and may even hold the record on more than one team). I'm not actually going to quibble one way or the other. Was more or less just throwing that out there.

That’s fair. I shouldn’t have said all because clearly that’s not the case. There are fine players who would like more variety and more difficult categories but I think balance should be struck. Hard categories aren’t necessarily obscure. There probably should be hard categories which are not currently implemented. I haven’t seen Psychological Disorders in a very long time. I’m assuming it’s excluded now. That is a hard category though not obscure,

If records can just be thrown out whenever we want, they’re not records. It would also be disingenuous to have a player listed as the holder of a record that they do not actually hold.

I wouldn't mind if, say, an author hasn't logged in for ten years, that record frees up. If a player from 2005 (who hasn't logged on since) still has a record on a team heroes category today, it's probably not very reflective of the way their team is and might have even been an aberration back when it happened.

What do we do with dead people’s records then? I guess we can just delete them. They won’t be needing them any longer, and then we can let people living have a go at it. In fact, we might as well just delete any record of them existing since they’re dead anyway.

See where that logic leads?

What do we do with dead people’s records then? I guess we can just delete them. They won’t be needing them any longer, and then we can let people living have a go at it. In fact, we might as well just delete any record of them existing since they’re dead anyway.

See where that logic leads?

The idea that when an obscure category comes up it is just an opportunity to research seems to me to be entirely against what Heroes is. It’s not an opportunity to research, it’s a chance to let somebody else win. Somebody who actually knows this subject.

Instead of researching those topics, why not just guess and maybe do poorly?

Our team has one player who plays every day, but the vast majority of the time does poorly. When her pet category comes, though, she’s a star. I love this, and that’s why I like this game best of all at FT. That those who hardly ever win, get to win.

If it were entirely up to me, every category that has enough quizzes would get a chance, once in a while.

Yeeeeahhhh... not really where I was going with that at all.

I guess it would be just as silly to start a new team entirely, add in the members from the old one who are still active, and start the record book from scratch, effectively wiping out the old one anyway. But that's actually something that can happen in a long-winded way.

All I mean is that if people re concerned with long-standing records from players who (a) came and went with no other real impact on their team or (b) left the team/were forced out of the team due to conflict or (c) legitimately cheated and were banned from the site or (d) any other reason others may deem arbitrarily valid, then maybe it would be wise to have some sort of way to alter something.


Deceased players don't have their records eliminated in general-- their profiles are still up, their quizzes are still playable (and maintained by editors!), and they still show up in team rosters unless they're removed by team leaders. But the only people who can see their Team Heroes records are the team members themselves-- no one else can see those because the Team Record Book page is only accessible from one's own team (ie. I can only see the Llamas). I'm not saying that people don't appreciate their legacies on the site, but surely those on those players' teams don't rely entirely on that page to do that.

You said to delete it if they are inactive for ten years. So if someone is dead in 2009 then in 2019, we should delete their record of achievement. In other words, to all the people whom that person meant something to, and to memorialize their record of achievement, that should just be thrown out because someone decided that their should be a ten year rule. I think that that is severely misguided. Hey, if their record is beaten it's beaten like anyone else's. But to start rules that ask to undo the achievements of some person because they've gone to another team or because they've left the site or because they've croaked... that totally undermines the idea of a record page. I guess we should just make it so that every Tom Dick and Harry (and in the spirit of MeToo, Elaines Melissas and Marys) can have a chance. I guess we should just start giving out participation trophies and scrap performance based measures altogether. That way everyone can be a winner.

"But the only people who can see their Team Heroes records are the team members themselves-- no one else can see those because the Team Record Book page is only accessible from one's own team (ie. I can only see the Llamas). I'm not saying that people don't appreciate their legacies on the site, but surely those on those players' teams don't rely entirely on that page to do that."

And as someone who has seen team members die or move on, I am decisively against removing their records just because of some poorly thought up rule that says they should stand for ten years before falling off. Every time I see their name crop up it reminds me of someone we lost. And to say that their achievement should just be stricken off the books? That is atrocious.

Who's idea was it to get rid of records? Someone who doesn't have any? I guess we should start taking World Series from the Yankees.. after all, they have 27 of them any way. Let's give everyone else a chance to catch up. Kareem Abdul Jabbar, his record of 38,000+ points has stood for nearly 30 years. Let's shave off his last couple season's worth of points to let all the other players have a chance to make it to the top.

Some years back, they were saying, "Let's make it to where the only horses that can race in the Preakness and the Belmont Stakes are horses that have ran in the Kentucky Derby." This would inherently debase the accomplishments of such horses as Secretariat and Man O' War. To place horses into such an elite group that did not properly earn their membership into that group taints the entire process. But people had been waiting for nearly 40 years for a Triple Crown and some had said it had become too difficult. But then came American Pharaoh and that put an end to that.

Anyhoo, I'm straying way off from the original point but I am trying to make a point in all of this. Records are records, and it doesn't matter how old the record is or if someone has changed teams or what. To remove the records defeats the point of having a records list and it puts into suspicion any person who's name is on that list.

Good point that no one else sees it anyway. We could leave it up to individual teams to do as they choose. We do have a member who died - he's still on the team and we don't plan to remove him from the roster, his records can stand forever and all his team members will see it.

Edited to add: One thing I'm trying to say is "current" team record - the record of all current members - not something that happened in the past, the person is gone from the team and no one will even see it except current members - it's not "current" it's more along the lines of historical.

"We could leave it up to individual teams to do as they choose."

So if a team just doesn't like somebody because they left in a huff, then under your rule, could a team expurge a record of someone they dislike, just because they dislike them?

Again, I'm wondering what the limiting principle is here. You make a distinction between historical and current. When were records ever not historical? All records are historical by virtue of them being records. They record an event which took place in history. Whether or not they are current, it depends. But this much is clear: If as you say, you're thrilled when an old record goes down, then resolve to beat them. It's up to you. Are you going to rise to the challenge and make it up to the records list? But if not, don't ruin it for those who do.

I have records with a number of teams on this site (I assume I still do anyway). Those records stand as a witness that I was once a part of those teams, that I represented the team in the games, and that I made my mark in that team's history, even if a tiny mark. I wonder if people ever see it and register it in their head. Probably not. But those are my achievements and that they should be removed just because I am with a different team now (as some have suggested in the past)? That's ludicrous. If you want my record you're going to have to beat it. Don't try to take it from me.

I don't know why my posts keep flagging Humanist. That post is to Dagny, not Humanist. I can't seem to figure this out.

It'll flag Humanist if you use the Quick Reply box at the bottom of the screen (QR will flag the first post in a thread).

To flag the post of Dagny, use the Reply button inside the post by Dagny.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. I think the Heroes game is fine just the way it is.

If anyone wants more of a challenge, more difficult questions, then try Obscurity, or Gold Madness, or Who's the Smartest et al.

Heroes is an enjoyable daily challenge that gives assorted team members a chance to shine at their very own particular areas of knowledge once in a while. Why take that bit of pleasure away from them?

Ouch. I’ll keep my suggestions to myself then.

No, don't do that. Debate is proper, and is instrumental to progress. Just to me, it's obvious how such a policy would have an unintended effect by sort of squashing the legacies of great FTers who are no longer with us, if such records had time limits or had some kind of mechanism for removal. Anyhoo, I feel like I've said enough. I feel like I've more than made the case for those who want it to remain as it is or at the least go back to the kind of game that we used to have before more recent changes (in the minds of many) caused the game to depart more from their dreamed ideal.

I want to clarify what I was trying to say earlier. I don't want any records expunged. It is fun to try to beat a current or former member's record on a team's page, even if it is almost impossible to do so. What I wouldn't like is for the same categories to come up with a higher level of difficulty because that would make the records even harder to beat, and artificially so. I liked Heroes when all the strange topics under the sun would come up because some people are good at them and they can shine (not out of research, but through their own knowledge). I don't mind it the way it is now, though some topics do seem to come up a lot more frequently than they used to.

I hope my opinion is clearer now.

And some topics don't come up any more at all, like the Mixed topics and Psychological Disorders. I also am not sure if Presidential Trivia has come up recently and there are many more for that matter that just do not come up at all. This is a problem, in my opinion. I think that talking about this issue has indicated that there are things each of us have a gripe about with the Heroes game and I do believe the earlier iteration of it was decisively better. But weren't the reforms premised on making the game better? Yet they have made it worse. I am cautious in noting that additional reforms may add more problems to the game rather than rectify them.

One thing I will note about the topics now, many of them are highly general, in a way they weren't previously. I can't think of any right off, but I know that I've set a number of records and based off what the records were before and who set them and my own personal recollection of those categories, I would say a number of the categories have gotten easier. This plays in a bit to what Humanist was saying earlier but I don't think he hit the nail on the head so much because the bigger issue appears to be the restricted range of topics.

I may be wrong in some of my surmisals but I don't think I'm wrong in that some categories are no longer available for Heroes. Like in Expert where certain categories are offered at a time, and others are retired permanently, I believe Heroes is basically set up in such a way, such that the vast majority of the categories we will never see again unless some type of code is written to specifically allow it to select from those categories.

Thank you for posting real numbers. I really wouldn't any changes made according to people's impression of the game. Since so few teams make a 1400+ score, the game already seems hard enough.



I haven't seen anyone actually address your data in this thread.

Agreed.

Appreciated.

Hypothetical:

You are a team leader and have been for years. Several years ago, you added a member to your team. During their time there, they posted several high scores, many of which are top tier. They are highly unlikely to be beaten and some are in categories that don’t come up often. Or they do. Either way.

A couple years ago, that team member sent relatively rude messages and left on bad terms. They didn’t get along with the team. Since then, that team member has deleted their account instead of dealing with the bad blood. It’s left a bad taste in everyone’s mouth.

This person actively deleted their account. They are not looking to leave a legacy— they made the conscious decision to remove trace of themselves from the site. Is that something that should be left up, untouched, even though that established team does not feel it fair to remember that person? Because the argument right now is that that player— the one who insulted another player or whatever— has a legacy in the record book.


Basically my argument is that it isn’t unfair for a team leader to be able to affect their team record book at their will. I actually think it would be more motivating for a team to be able to create new records. Maybe you hold the team record for a year or something— like Kyle was the team leader for Mixed Canada in 2019. They can fight for the title of hero again next year.
Having a constant ‘forever record’ isn’t dynamic, and sure, it’s nice for those aiming for legacy, but it does minimal for longevity of the game. My team book has records from five plus years ago that will probably be untouched, in some cases from players that have deleted themselves from the site, and at that point, there’s no reason to go back and look at them. Putting the control into the team leader’s hands might allow for more activity, and I honestly think that’s good for ALL players in the game, no matter what team.

I already said I don't disagree with what seems like the majority in this thread (that the game is fine as-is), but these numbers are a VERY narrow scope of the game, especially since the topic is based on regional trivia. The highest scores in those large groups are FROM Canada and the topic is Mixed Canada. Arguably, digging deeper into these numbers, the scores are only what they are because those teams' 'heroes' are arguably experts by way of living those lives. They would actually be much lower numbers without people who might as well embody 'Mixed Canada'. But that's the game.




To compile that data beyond one day would probably take more time and resources than one day and one player. The records don't exist without asking other teams or admins. If you're sitting up waiting for someone to give this, it'd be about as insightful as the info in the first quote-- a single day cross-section, maybe two days. Even the team record book only tells you the best score, that's more problematic. Addressing the data means addressing "how the game was yesterday", and that's not really why we're here. That's why I didn't address it originally.



As always, what's 'easy' for some is 'tough' for others. Humanist makes a valid suggestion (he thinks the game is easy) and he's entitled to it. My recommendation to him would be to focus more on the harder games. I kind of think Team Heroes does its job quite well for the expectation.

Figures, who said figures. I got some slightly more meaningful figures, although it really doesn't matter to me what they are. It's not the scores, for me, it's seeing the same topics repeatedly when there are so many to choose from! I bet there are even enough topics to have a different Heroes topic for every day of the year!

Over the final month that I recorded my teams scores we averaged 1399 (30 days). We usually finish somewhere between 7th and 14th in the larger team group over a month. So many teams would have had higher averages and some lower. Over the first week of that month our top scorer each day scored 1464, 1454, 1460, 1457, 1435, 1425 and 1450.

Nobody is right or wrong, we like what we like.

I like more variety, others prefer familiarity. It's just the way we are.

I look forward to Terry taking a look at the game as he said he planned to near the top of this thread.