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#1251378 - Sat Nov 30 2019 05:00 AM Re: ATTN: TEAM VS TEAM STATS
HairyBear Offline
Mainstay

Registered: Fri Sep 01 2006
Posts: 711
Loc: Florida USA
Originally Posted By: WesleyCrusher
Some more information about game scoring: Since the number of possible scoring players per league is less than 200 now (A has a max of 160, B has 150 and C has 165) and we want to make sure that quality trumps quantity, the points assignment has been changed a bit, primarily using a top 100 scale:

- The top 10 players for each game (per division) receive a bonus score for their team that is slightly increased from a linear "1 to 100" progression:

1st - 120 points
2nd - 117 points
3rd - 114 points
4th - 111 points
5th - 108 points
6th - 105 points
7th - 102 points
8th - 99 points
9th - 96 points
10th - 93 points.

- From 11th to 100th place, the progression is one point per rank. 11th is worth 90, 12th is 89, 13th is 88, and so on down to 100th which is worth 1 point.

- Everyone else who makes the "Heroes" ranks for their team (top 4, 5, 6 or 8, depending on division) but ranks 101st and beyond still contributes 1 point towards the team standings.

Thus:

- It is ALWAYS strictly better to play than not to play. Using up your full scoring allocation will increase your points, even if only by 1 per player.
- The bonus points available at the top make outstanding performances worth going for but not dominant. Compared to a linear allocation up to 100, the extras only make about 2% of the total available daily points. But in a tight race, every point counts, so you want your best players to give it all!
- There are NO more games where playing and having a low score can bring your team's scores down. Any such fears (and any "withdraw from the game instead of submitting" strategies) are a thing of the past. We want players to play, enjoy the games and contribute.

I think this should be revisited for the coming new year. Rather than "only" getting 160 players, which is the maximum who can get points, and only 99 score more than 1 point, we're getting something like 300 people playing Team Heroes and the Daily Game just in League A, meaning 200 people are getting just one or no points from playing. And I will point out an additional anomaly vis-a-vis the old scoring system of top 200... under the old system, the #1 person would get 200 points, the 21st person 180, making a difference of 10% in their scores. Under the new system, the #1 person gets 120 points, the 21st person just 80, a difference of 33%. The difference in scores yesterday in Piece of Cake, for example, between the #1 scorer and the 21st scorer wasn't 33%, it was less than 1%. So I suggest that you use the actual number of players to determine the number of points, so Daily would get 300 points at the top but the 21st person would get 280, while a game that doesn't count and is gold member like GMM yesterday, the #1 person would get 50 points, the 21st just 30. Alternatively, if you'd like the scores to reflect actual differences in ability, you could just use the raw scores as points. So someone who was 1st in Cake being only 1% better than #21 in Cake would only get 1% more of a score, while someone who is 1st in Obscurity being 38% better than #21 in Obscurity would have the team scores reflect that. This would yield wildly different scores in different games (Mind Melt maxes out at 3000 points to Cake's 1000), but they would be internally consistent from day to day, anyway. None of this would require any change in the number of games or number of players being scored, so League A would stay eight games and eight players, etc. Just the scoring system would change to more accurately reflect ability levels.

Now that I've written it out, I think I like the second option better, just use raw scores for team points rather than rank order.

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#1251379 - Sat Nov 30 2019 05:11 AM Re: ATTN: TEAM VS TEAM STATS
samak Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: Thu Dec 10 2015
Posts: 298
Loc: Ashgabat, Asia
Would this advantage or disadvantage your team? From previous posts, I assume the former.

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#1251452 - Sun Dec 01 2019 01:46 AM Re: ATTN: TEAM VS TEAM STATS
samak Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: Thu Dec 10 2015
Posts: 298
Loc: Ashgabat, Asia
Where are the Team Heroes stats for 30 Nov ?

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#1251453 - Sun Dec 01 2019 02:36 AM Re: ATTN: TEAM VS TEAM STATS
HairyBear Offline
Mainstay

Registered: Fri Sep 01 2006
Posts: 711
Loc: Florida USA
Originally Posted By: samak
Would this advantage or disadvantage your team? From previous posts, I assume the former.

I suspect that either scoring system listed above would benefit every team except the Mossbacks. Take a look at your results. Anyone finish below 99th place? If so, either of the systems I mentioned would benefit your team by giving you more than one point for those players. Have no one in the top ten spots? If so, either of the systems I mentioned would benefit your team by bringing your scores closer to those top ten. So nearly every team would do better under either of the schemes I outlined.

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#1251454 - Sun Dec 01 2019 02:50 AM Re: ATTN: TEAM VS TEAM STATS
HairyBear Offline
Mainstay

Registered: Fri Sep 01 2006
Posts: 711
Loc: Florida USA
Originally Posted By: samak
Where are the Team Heroes stats for 30 Nov ?

You can go here: https://www.funtrivia.com/heroes/tvt_yesterdayinfo.cfm?gid=16732

For everyone else, just substitute your team number for 16732 at the end, or click on your score from yesterday from the Team Info page.

Note, Terry & Wes, the discrepancy I noted last month popped up again this month, the score on the Team Info page is different from the total listed on that page linked above. This is true in every game. The discrepancy is small, but it's there.

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#1251459 - Sun Dec 01 2019 04:06 AM Re: ATTN: TEAM VS TEAM STATS
samak Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: Thu Dec 10 2015
Posts: 298
Loc: Ashgabat, Asia
Thanks, I couldn't see any way to click through to this page.

"Note, Terry & Wes, the discrepancy I noted last month popped up again this month, the score on the Team Info page is different from the total listed on that page linked above. This is true in every game. The discrepancy is small, but it's there."

Yes, I tracked it this month. It was fine until the last day when it went awry.

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#1251460 - Sun Dec 01 2019 04:13 AM Re: ATTN: TEAM VS TEAM STATS
samak Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: Thu Dec 10 2015
Posts: 298
Loc: Ashgabat, Asia
This may be a red herring but what happens if someone changes teams in the middle of the month? Could it account for these small differences?

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#1251473 - Sun Dec 01 2019 07:33 AM Re: ATTN: TEAM VS TEAM STATS
Barbarini Offline
Mainstay

Registered: Sat Sep 04 2010
Posts: 722
Loc: Alberta Canada
Terry, on the team stats page, the link for yesterday's Word Wizard scores go to Piece of Cake. Can you please correct this.
Many thanks!

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#1251481 - Sun Dec 01 2019 10:59 AM Re: ATTN: TEAM VS TEAM STATS
ssabreman Offline
Prolific

Registered: Wed Nov 03 2010
Posts: 1839
Loc: Ontario and Arizona
Final Standings for Team vs Team competition are in place but the placement named on the Team pages is out of whack. Mossbacks finished 1st but it reads 19th on their page. Worldwide Wizards were second but it says 7th...which is where the Funsters ended up. Devious Demons says 1st place on their page.

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#1251482 - Sun Dec 01 2019 11:44 AM Re: ATTN: TEAM VS TEAM STATS
Barbarini Offline
Mainstay

Registered: Sat Sep 04 2010
Posts: 722
Loc: Alberta Canada
Originally Posted By: ssabreman
Final Standings for Team vs Team competition are in place but the placement named on the Team pages is out of whack. Mossbacks finished 1st but it reads 19th on their page. Worldwide Wizards were second but it says 7th...which is where the Funsters ended up. Devious Demons says 1st place on their page.


It's still connected to the old TvT game rather than the monthly standings.

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#1251499 - Sun Dec 01 2019 03:15 PM Re: ATTN: TEAM VS TEAM STATS
WesleyCrusher Offline

Administrator

Registered: Thu Sep 04 2008
Posts: 7583
Loc: Germany
HairyBear: For the last time, the scoring table has been chosen and set with a purpose. That purpose is not to reward a specific team or punish any specific team but to reward quality over quantity and provide a good game balance with the current participation figures and those we expect to see over the next few years.

100 out of 160 (assuming a full League A table) is more than 62%. Or, to use the converse, a performance in the bottom 38% of the table will net you only a participation score. Being average (80th) or better will net you at least a 20.

The extra points for top 10, compared to a linear count to 100, add up to 110 (+20 for 1st, +18 for 2nd, and so on down to +2 for 10th). The sum of the base 1 to 100 is 5,050. That means the top 10 bonus is a mere 2.13% of the overall points awarded to the top 100 players. This is a small bonus, mostly intended to provide a little extra motivation to make multiple attempts at the hourlies instead of stopping after getting a score possibly good for 25th or 30th place on your first try "because it won't make a real difference anyway".

We have duly and repeatedly noted that you would prefer a different balance. However we are currently happy with this aspect of the system and see no reason to change it. The old scores which were used in the Team of the Year standings were scaled to a much larger player base and, as a result of declining numbers, rewarded raw player count over actual skill. In particular, being unable to fill your maximum number was practically synonymous with not being able to compete for top spots - in some games, especially the Gold Member ones, participation was down to around 100, meaning that any nonzero score was good for half of what the top player would receive and thus indirectly adding a very undesirable and unintended "pay to win" component to the lists.

As to the bug reports, Terry will get to them when he has the time. Thanks to samak for the observation that the discrepancy only showed on the last day - this might be very helpful in finding the reason.


Edited by WesleyCrusher (Sun Dec 01 2019 03:26 PM)
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#1251504 - Sun Dec 01 2019 03:48 PM Re: ATTN: TEAM VS TEAM STATS
WesleyCrusher Offline

Administrator

Registered: Thu Sep 04 2008
Posts: 7583
Loc: Germany
By the way, I just looked at the final tables from last month and the standings show that the scoring system is working as intended. Out of the four divisions, only "B" shows a significant bias towards larger teams scoring higher. In "C", both the largest and the second smallest team earned promotion, while in "A", the four largest teams finished 2nd, 8th, 9th and 19th. A half-strength team (3 actives) finished 10th out of 33 in "C".

Success in the leagues is primarily based on a mixture of player skill and being able to motivate the team to give their best every day - and that's what it was meant to be.
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#1251520 - Sun Dec 01 2019 06:54 PM Re: ATTN: TEAM VS TEAM STATS
DaMoopies Offline
Participant

Registered: Thu Jun 04 2015
Posts: 40
Loc: New Hampshire USA
Is it possible to create a "One stop shop" for the team competition games in which one may find out ones scores for the day?

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#1251531 - Sun Dec 01 2019 09:31 PM Re: ATTN: TEAM VS TEAM STATS
BigTriviaDawg Offline
Explorer

Registered: Tue Mar 20 2018
Posts: 79
Loc: Georgia USA
Looking at the team chart for group B for December it lists "new game" as one of our team games for the month but on my main page it doesn't show the icon next to the new game. Not sure if it is just me but figured others would want to know they needed to play the new game this month. BTD

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#1251557 - Mon Dec 02 2019 07:51 AM Re: ATTN: TEAM VS TEAM STATS
pmarney Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: Thu May 10 2012
Posts: 346
Loc: Norfolk
England UK
As a team we don’t have a problem with the new system. Sometimes odd members complain about a game they are normally not very good at, but everyone has a game they either don’t like or score badly in, I must admit I pulled a face when I saw “Mind Melt” & “Word Wizard” included this month. My view is it’s only for that month and we are all here for a bit of fun.
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#1251563 - Mon Dec 02 2019 10:14 AM Re: ATTN: TEAM VS TEAM STATS
bubblesfun Offline
Mainstay

Registered: Thu Jan 15 2009
Posts: 680
Loc: New York USA
Originally Posted By: ssabreman
Final Standings for Team vs Team competition are in place but the placement named on the Team pages is out of whack. Mossbacks finished 1st but it reads 19th on their page. Worldwide Wizards were second but it says 7th...which is where the Funsters ended up. Devious Demons says 1st place on their page.


For the good of the system and humanity, I vote that those awards stand as they are. wink
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#1251908 - Thu Dec 05 2019 12:23 PM Re: ATTN: TEAM VS TEAM STATS
Terry Offline
Head Honcho

Registered: Wed Dec 31 1969
Posts: 21449
Loc: USA
Division A trophies added to team info pages.

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#1251911 - Thu Dec 05 2019 12:31 PM Re: ATTN: TEAM VS TEAM STATS
Terry Offline
Head Honcho

Registered: Wed Dec 31 1969
Posts: 21449
Loc: USA
testing posting.

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#1251917 - Thu Dec 05 2019 12:38 PM Re: ATTN: TEAM VS TEAM STATS
Terry Offline
Head Honcho

Registered: Wed Dec 31 1969
Posts: 21449
Loc: USA
test2

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