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#1264275 - Thu Apr 30 2020 07:22 AM Re: Please Expand Heroes Categories!
DireWolf74 Offline
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Registered: Mon Jun 28 2010
Posts: 764
Loc: Illinois USA
Originally Posted By: WesleyCrusher
If it were up to me, it'd be using Expert categories for at least a month now. Unfortunately I don't have code access :P


That's cool with me. cool

But I do want to remind people that the reason all those topics were removed to begin with is that players were complaining that nobody on their teams wanted to play topics like "Manga" or "Lost" because they didn't know anything about those more specialized subjects.

If you have all the different topics in Heroes, they complain. If they are removed, they complain.

So which way does everyone want it? wink
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#1264276 - Thu Apr 30 2020 07:24 AM Re: Please Expand Heroes Categories!
DireWolf74 Offline
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Originally Posted By: samak
'Buffy the Vampire Slayer' 'Stargate Universe', and 'NCAA Football'. How emetic!
Sounds like the game is about to be ruined


Does stuff like this ring a bell?
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#1264279 - Thu Apr 30 2020 07:57 AM Re: Please Expand Heroes Categories!
nasty_liar Offline
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Originally Posted By: DireWolf74
Originally Posted By: WesleyCrusher
If it were up to me, it'd be using Expert categories for at least a month now. Unfortunately I don't have code access :P


That's cool with me. cool

But I do want to remind people that the reason all those topics were removed to begin with is that players were complaining that nobody on their teams wanted to play topics like "Manga" or "Lost" because they didn't know anything about those more specialized subjects.

If you have all the different topics in Heroes, they complain. If they are removed, they complain.

So which way does everyone want it? wink



You’re right Mr. Wolf that was a common complaint.

How would you deal with that Mr. Crusher? I thought making the more specific topics a rarity would suffice. They were coming up quite frequently before the Heroes game was altered prompting the complaints about them.

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#1264282 - Thu Apr 30 2020 09:02 AM Re: Please Expand Heroes Categories!
agony Offline

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Posts: 16595
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This is probably a situation where we cannot please everyone. We also need to keep in mind that the vast majority of players are not commenting here, and we have no idea if they are blissfully happy, or miserable, with the way things are.

The restaurateur's maxim is that for every complaint, there are ten unhappy customers. So one complaint is something to pay attention to. It's not necessarily basis for a change, though - in general, people who are happy with something tend not to go out of their way to find a place to say "It's fine".

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#1264283 - Thu Apr 30 2020 09:34 AM Re: Please Expand Heroes Categories!
nasty_liar Offline
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Originally Posted By: agony
This is probably a situation where we cannot please everyone. We also need to keep in mind that the vast majority of players are not commenting here, and we have no idea if they are blissfully happy, or miserable, with the way things are.

The restaurateur's maxim is that for every complaint, there are ten unhappy customers. So one complaint is something to pay attention to. It's not necessarily basis for a change, though - in general, people who are happy with something tend not to go out of their way to find a place to say "It's fine".


That’s true. Presumably there were the majority who were not saying anything and we’re perfectly happy too before it got changed in the first place? :-)

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#1264284 - Thu Apr 30 2020 09:44 AM Re: Please Expand Heroes Categories!
agony Offline

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That's always the problem. We don't want to ignore those who feel strongly enough to bring their complaints to our attention, but we also don't want to make changes that actually only please one or two complainers! It's why this stuff is difficult.

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#1264285 - Thu Apr 30 2020 09:46 AM Re: Please Expand Heroes Categories!
WesleyCrusher Offline

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Actually, the more I read here, the more I want those Expert categories in because they would be a way to relatively easily address the two conflicting desires.

Some players want mostly, if not entirely, accessible topics.
Others want more variety, with some more difficult topics in the mix.

This means there must be an optimum ratio of easy to harder topics. It's not 0% hard, it's certainly not 100% hard.

As the Expert system already has those two groupings (general and specific), those groupings could be used to tweak the game with a single parameter - until we find the setup that best pleases the majority of players.

Or, of course - but that would be much more difficult to code - we could restructure the game entirely. Instead of one topic per day, we'd get two. One general and one specific, from the same root category. And then, in leagues A to C, we'd have a split of what needs to be played. In A, two players (from 8) would have to choose specific. In B and C, one. (Scores would still be compared on the same table - no split).

As Heroes has (apart from achievements and the occasional stage game requirement) no personal score incentives, it would give the game a special "team" vibe. Does the team have someone really knowledgeable? Or do you just want to fill the "easier" roster with decent first and then have everyone remaining try their luck at the difficult one?
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#1264286 - Thu Apr 30 2020 10:01 AM Re: Please Expand Heroes Categories!
nasty_liar Offline
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Posts: 507
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Originally Posted By: agony
That's always the problem. We don't want to ignore those who feel strongly enough to bring their complaints to our attention, but we also don't want to make changes that actually only please one or two complainers! It's why this stuff is difficult.


Yeah, so right.

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#1264287 - Thu Apr 30 2020 10:08 AM Re: Please Expand Heroes Categories!
nasty_liar Offline
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Registered: Sun Oct 05 2008
Posts: 507
Loc: Sheffield
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Originally Posted By: WesleyCrusher
Actually, the more I read here, the more I want those Expert categories in because they would be a way to relatively easily address the two conflicting desires.

Some players want mostly, if not entirely, accessible topics.
Others want more variety, with some more difficult topics in the mix.

This means there must be an optimum ratio of easy to harder topics. It's not 0% hard, it's certainly not 100% hard.

As the Expert system already has those two groupings (general and specific), those groupings could be used to tweak the game with a single parameter - until we find the setup that best pleases the majority of players.

Or, of course - but that would be much more difficult to code - we could restructure the game entirely. Instead of one topic per day, we'd get two. One general and one specific, from the same root category. And then, in leagues A to C, we'd have a split of what needs to be played. In A, two players (from 8) would have to choose specific. In B and C, one. (Scores would still be compared on the same table - no split).

As Heroes has (apart from achievements and the occasional stage game requirement) no personal score incentives, it would give the game a special "team" vibe. Does the team have someone really knowledgeable? Or do you just want to fill the "easier" roster with decent first and then have everyone remaining try their luck at the difficult one?


I have to credit your consistently amazing imagination and inventiveness but that feels like it’s getting away from the simplicity that makes it such a good game already.

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#1264295 - Thu Apr 30 2020 01:03 PM Re: Please Expand Heroes Categories!
WesleyCrusher Offline

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Registered: Thu Sep 04 2008
Posts: 7583
Loc: Germany
It was just an idea - most teams in sports have positions filled by players with different skills and interests. Since we have different player types in most FT teams as well, it could be interesting to have a similar "positions" setup.

It would however probably be better as an entirely new game - maybe one that uses more specialized categories, but several per day and the team's best score in each category counts? That might cause interesting strategies.

Also having a game like that would take the pressure off Heroes to offer more / more specialized play. Heroes would use relatively general categories only that people can probably somehow master even if it's outside their forte, the other game would cater to those who want to play special categories - but with multiples per day, most players should have a good chance to know something in at least one.

It ahould probably be exclusive to the higher leagues (A and B for sure, C maybe? How would C players think about it?)


Edited by WesleyCrusher (Thu Apr 30 2020 01:12 PM)
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#1264298 - Thu Apr 30 2020 03:33 PM Re: Please Expand Heroes Categories!
andymuenz Offline
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Registered: Sun Sep 14 2014
Posts: 356
Loc: Pennsylvania USA
My preference would be that on days where I get the challenge to be one of my team's heroes, it be a category that I am better than most of my teammates at. Something tells me that's not going to happen though.

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#1264350 - Thu Apr 30 2020 09:27 PM Re: Please Expand Heroes Categories!
DireWolf74 Offline
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Registered: Mon Jun 28 2010
Posts: 764
Loc: Illinois USA
That's true. There are people that were happy then and now.

You never hear from them very much. They don't drop in to say hey things are great.
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#1264357 - Thu Apr 30 2020 11:32 PM Re: Please Expand Heroes Categories!
eyhung Offline
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Registered: Fri Mar 02 2012
Posts: 211
Loc: California USA
Here's my idea for a second (or revamped) version of Team Heroes:

Every day, pick semi-randomly (can't repeat a topic two days in a row) 3 top-level topics to score.

One topic is pop culture, chosen from Movies, Television, Music, Sports, and Celebrities.

One topic is academic, chosen from Sci/Tech, History, Geography, Literature, People, and Humanities.

One topic is miscellaneous, chosen from Animals, General, Hobbies, Religion, and World.



Then each team members' best score on that day out of any of the Easy (x1.2 to provide a simple baseline), Smartest (x1.55, so that the top performances in that game are commensurate with top performances in Expert), or Expert games that fall under one of the chosen topics counts toward the team score. But only one hero per topic. So for example, if player A's Music [Pop Culture topic] performance is used for their team, you can't use their score for Academic or Miscellaneous. You compute a team's score by taking the top player in the category with the biggest margin of victory over their teammates, then, excluding that winner, the top player for category with the second-largest margin of victory, then the top player for the last category excluding the two winners.

Currently Smartest and Easy don't show their schedule, but it shouldn't be hard to expose it, so players know what hours to show up to play the category they're hoping to help their team in. Or you could leave it as is to encourage people to hang around the site checking for a favorable Smartest or Easy game.

Something like that, at least, would certainly be different and give people a variety of ways to help their team. For example, if Sports is a category of the day, it doesn't matter if they score points using Smartest - Sports, Baseball, Martial Arts, or Australian Rules, just so long as they're good at what they play. Similarly, if Hobbies is the category, you can help with Food/Drink or Collectibles or Games/Toys if those expert categories show up, or just go for the general top-level topic in Smartest or Easy.

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#1264394 - Fri May 01 2020 06:55 AM Re: Please Expand Heroes Categories!
gracious1 Offline
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Registered: Tue May 01 2012
Posts: 1750
Loc: New York USA
I would be okay with a game like Wes or eyhung is describing if we could also keep the current Heroes as is, as there are many people who are perfectly happy with the game and so don't go on the Forum to say that. (Usually people only go on the Forum when they have a problem or a complaint etc.)
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#1264402 - Fri May 01 2020 10:48 AM Re: Please Expand Heroes Categories!
WesleyCrusher Offline

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Posts: 7583
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Any second game would be aimed at supplementing the current (maybe slightly but not massively modified) Heroes, not replace it. That's the whole point - give both those who want the current Hero experience and those who'd want a more varied and more difficult setup something to do.
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#1264403 - Fri May 01 2020 11:36 AM Re: Please Expand Heroes Categories!
CmdrK Offline
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Registered: Sun Jan 17 2010
Posts: 2223
Loc: Nevada USA
Originally Posted By: gracious1
I would be okay with a game like Wes or eyhung is describing if we could also keep the current Heroes as is, as there are many people who are perfectly happy with the game and so don't go on the Forum to say that. (Usually people only go on the Forum when they have a problem or a complaint etc.)


I'm one of those people who are perfectly happy with the game.
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#1264462 - Sat May 02 2020 01:38 AM Re: Please Expand Heroes Categories!
JanIQ Offline
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Registered: Thu Jul 09 2009
Posts: 911
Loc: Antwerp
Belgium
Originally Posted By: eyhung
Here's my idea for a second (or revamped) version of Team Heroes:

Every day, pick semi-randomly (can't repeat a topic two days in a row) 3 top-level topics to score.

One topic is pop culture, chosen from Movies, Television, Music, Sports, and Celebrities.

One topic is academic, chosen from Sci/Tech, History, Geography, Literature, People, and Humanities.

One topic is miscellaneous, chosen from Animals, General, Hobbies, Religion, and World.



Then each team members' best score on that day out of any of the Easy (x1.2 to provide a simple baseline), Smartest (x1.55, so that the top performances in that game are commensurate with top performances in Expert), or Expert games that fall under one of the chosen topics counts toward the team score. But only one hero per topic. So for example, if player A's Music [Pop Culture topic] performance is used for their team, you can't use their score for Academic or Miscellaneous. You compute a team's score by taking the top player in the category with the biggest margin of victory over their teammates, then, excluding that winner, the top player for category with the second-largest margin of victory, then the top player for the last category excluding the two winners.

Currently Smartest and Easy don't show their schedule, but it shouldn't be hard to expose it, so players know what hours to show up to play the category they're hoping to help their team in. Or you could leave it as is to encourage people to hang around the site checking for a favorable Smartest or Easy game.

Something like that, at least, would certainly be different and give people a variety of ways to help their team. For example, if Sports is a category of the day, it doesn't matter if they score points using Smartest - Sports, Baseball, Martial Arts, or Australian Rules, just so long as they're good at what they play. Similarly, if Hobbies is the category, you can help with Food/Drink or Collectibles or Games/Toys if those expert categories show up, or just go for the general top-level topic in Smartest or Easy.


Don't we have to include Entertainment in the pop culture? And I personally would swap Religion to "academic" and People to "miscellaneous". I feel there is more variety in the People category than in the Religion category (and not because of the vast difference in number of quizzes).
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#1264486 - Sat May 02 2020 06:23 AM Re: Please Expand Heroes Categories!
DireWolf74 Offline
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Registered: Mon Jun 28 2010
Posts: 764
Loc: Illinois USA
Originally Posted By: WesleyCrusher
Any second game would be aimed at supplementing the current (maybe slightly but not massively modified) Heroes, not replace it. That's the whole point - give both those who want the current Hero experience and those who'd want a more varied and more difficult setup something to do.


Awesomeness!

I hope this gets implemented.
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#1264489 - Sat May 02 2020 09:41 AM Re: Please Expand Heroes Categories!
kyleisalive Offline
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Registered: Mon Mar 07 2005
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Quote:
Don't we have to include Entertainment in the pop culture? And I personally would swap Religion to "academic" and People to "miscellaneous". I feel there is more variety in the People category than in the Religion category (and not because of the vast difference in number of quizzes).


We're still dodging VG too. wink
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#1264512 - Sat May 02 2020 05:03 PM Re: Please Expand Heroes Categories!
TriviaFan22 Offline
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Registered: Sat Apr 27 2013
Posts: 357
Loc: Texas USA
I haven’t caught up on all the suggestions, but I have read most of them and I want to reiterate: I think broad categories are probably okay, but there is not sufficient variation, if that makes sense. I don’t completely know what the Expert bank is and probably would agree if it contains Buffy and LOST, etc., that that is probably too specific. I think having TV Mix is just fine, or Classic Television or TV Characters, or something like that, whatever the topics are. But in so many if it’s going to be television today, it is in many cases the same category drawn from television as two weeks ago, or four weeks ago. So there isn’t a lot of shuffling going on it seems. I don’t think the answer to that is to make it where Heroes draw from any topic. Maybe there would be a way to say that a category which has x number of quizzes under it can be selected. Therefore, you get bigger categories like Mathematics but not Calculus. Or you get Philosophy but not Utilitarianism. Or Heavy Metal but not Black Sabbath. That may be a way to strike the balance much more easily that trying other piecemeal approaches.


Edited by TriviaFan22 (Sat May 02 2020 05:04 PM)

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#1264541 - Sat May 02 2020 10:57 PM Re: Please Expand Heroes Categories!
eyhung Offline
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Registered: Fri Mar 02 2012
Posts: 211
Loc: California USA
I didn't mention Entertainment, Video Games, Brain Teasers, and For Children, not because I think they're bad categories, but because those are the four categories that don't appear to be represented in the Easy and Smartest Games. Brain Teasers don't appear in Expert either.

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#1264556 - Sun May 03 2020 02:30 AM Re: Please Expand Heroes Categories!
JanIQ Offline
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Registered: Thu Jul 09 2009
Posts: 911
Loc: Antwerp
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If the Heroes game is expanded to more niche subjects and/or to more categories, then we need to include Entertainment and For Children, and possibly Video Games too. It depends on how much niche categories could be included. This is not because I'm good in Entertainment or Video Games - far more to the contrary.

Brain Teasers tend to have more quizzes that need to be taken as a whole, so it's not quite practical to lift single questions from these quizzes.
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#1264572 - Sun May 03 2020 07:18 AM Re: Please Expand Heroes Categories!
DireWolf74 Offline
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Registered: Mon Jun 28 2010
Posts: 764
Loc: Illinois USA
Originally Posted By: kyleisalive
Quote:
Don't we have to include Entertainment in the pop culture? And I personally would swap Religion to "academic" and People to "miscellaneous". I feel there is more variety in the People category than in the Religion category (and not because of the vast difference in number of quizzes).


We're still dodging VG too. wink


Hope not.
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#1264573 - Sun May 03 2020 07:26 AM Re: Please Expand Heroes Categories!
TriviaFan22 Offline
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Registered: Sat Apr 27 2013
Posts: 357
Loc: Texas USA
Originally Posted By: JanIQ
If the Heroes game is expanded to more niche subjects and/or to more categories, then we need to include Entertainment and For Children, and possibly Video Games too. It depends on how much niche categories could be included. This is not because I'm good in Entertainment or Video Games - far more to the contrary.

Brain Teasers tend to have more quizzes that need to be taken as a whole, so it's not quite practical to lift single questions from these quizzes.


I’m not opposed to having VG or Entertainment in there. With For Children, it would be too much of a speed contest and people have complained about that I think and the questions would probably not be that much interesting like “What sound does a puppy make?”

Now for NCAA Football and similar, I can see excluding those. There are certainly sports fans in the US who follow college sports more closely than professional sports but there are a lot who don’t follow college sports nearly at all and it would also cut out most of the world population. Cricket on the other hand I could be fine having in there because it has so much more following than college ball in comparison. And then you would probably have the other major sports as well but if it’s not done by a piecemeal approach I don’t know how you do it but I don’t know why it has to be one or the other.


Edited by TriviaFan22 (Sun May 03 2020 07:26 AM)

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#1264579 - Sun May 03 2020 09:11 AM Re: Please Expand Heroes Categories!
gracious1 Offline
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Registered: Tue May 01 2012
Posts: 1750
Loc: New York USA
Could Brain Teasers be included if questions were manually and very carefully selected to be ones that didn't require other questions? For example, if the question said, "Find the hidden species of feline in this sentence", followed by said sentence, that would be enough information for someone to solve it in a mixed quiz. This would necessarily be a static pool of questions, again updated only manually, periodically, so maybe it's too laborious to put into practice.
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