Quote:
"Also by saying that it seems unnatural for a man to want to throw a plain looking woman on the bed after 5 minutes (paraphrasing), that the "rest of us" are less deserving of love and affection - even lust - than the truly beautiful women. Truth is, there are FAR more of "the rest of us" than there are truly beautiful women. "

I was not trying to put anyone down or to imply that less beautiful "outside" woman does not deserve as much as any other woman. Being far from a beauty myself, I readily agree that ordinary women are just as worthy as any other and some are more so. However, it is my observation that more plain women do not create lust in men quite as fast as more beautiful ones, and even though they may be more deserving, it usually just doesn't happen that way. It seems to me that ordinary women first attract men by other attributes and the lust is secondary; however, in some novels it is put the other way around.

I knew what you were getting at, I was just stating my opinion. This is one area that maybe I get too "het up" over something that really doesn't matter - what the heroine of a book looks like. I am sorry if I responded too harshly. That was never my intention. Sometimes in my crusade for "the rest of us", I get all fired up.

I'm with everyone here in their opinions. Another thing I've thought of that gets up my nose in historical romance is when - by some old will and testament or a bet made by 2 old men that the hero and heroine HAVE to get married then we have the disastrous wedding night where he "takes" her roughly and cares nothing of her wishes - in other words rapes the heroine and she still falls in love with him. I also feel that they put the marriage bit in so that they can justify the sex scene "well, they weren't being permissive as the were aving sex as husband and wife" etc etc.

Totally agree with the less than perfect heroine. It doesn't have to be that she's plain - I've read books in the past where the heroine was either - a tom boy, a single mother, an older woman who was a widow .....etc. not always a fresh faced virgin.

Bruyere the author who wrote the book about the stand up comic and the photographer was Fiona Walters. Xiaodog - she is a modern writer but give her books a try because she writes with real humour which is important and is missing from a lot of historical romance. She's also managed to make some pretty damaged characters really loveable.

Going onto the "What happened next" bit - I think a great measure of a novel is when you are really upset that it's over. Not only do you wonder what happened next, but you felt so much for the characters that you wanted to be part of their story. It's also great when a novelist writes a new story with a different hero/heroine, but your characters are part of their circle of freinds it gets you right in there all over again.

Good luck with the venture and we all want advance signed copies don't we girls??

Thanks George for the id on the author, she's really great.
I've enjoyed the two or three I've read, and how many books do you read with a love story and passionate scene, and a comedy?
If you want to see how a romance works with someone who's physically normal I recommend her.

You've got a definite point about the forced relations in many of these...though you might argue that it probably occured quite often as you got married off to someone you didn't even know back then.
I'm always uneasy with that setup, "he has the right to my person..." and then, she ends up falling in love with her captor or husband to whom she's been forced to marry.
Seems like a kind of cheap excuse for the power thing to me.

I don't think I could say it any better than this - this is RIGHT on target:

In reply to:

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Personally, I would rather keep reading a well developed, well written story of two people falling in love than to see how much steamier the story is going to get. Don't get me wrong, I get a kick out of the steamy parts, too, I just like to see the characters develop somewhat first, and have the buildup to the steam.

Also by saying that it seems unnatural for a man to want to throw a plain looking woman on the bed after 5 minutes (paraphrasing), that the "rest of us" are less deserving of love and affection - even lust - than the truly beautiful women. Truth is, there are FAR more of "the rest of us" than there are truly beautiful women.

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And, xaosdog, this is exactly what I meant about the "what happens next" at the end:

In reply to:

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Going onto the "What happened next" bit - I think a great measure of a novel is when you are really upset that it's over. Not only do you wonder what happened next, but you felt so much for the characters that you wanted to be part of their story. It's also great when a novelist writes a new story with a different hero/heroine, but your characters are part of their circle of freinds it gets you right in there all over again.

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Hey folks, what do you think of this -- when I get three chapters completed, I will post them on the web, and give contributors here a "sneak preview." I'll be looking for brutal honesty -- if you don't like it, I hope you'll tear me a new heaving bodice. But if you do like it -- if it has you eagerly anticipating chapter 4 -- that will let me know I'm on the right track.

Now, I am only able to write on weekends, and even then not every weekend, so give me a couple of months. Hopefully it will only take one month, but that would take some luck. (Besides, up to now I have put five hours in outlining and re-outlining for every hour I have put into actually drafting.)

I would be a little uncomfortable posting a URL here in this public forum -- probably I will direct message people who want to see the sneak preview, and put a post here announcing that i am ready to do so -- so keep watching this space!

And I've been issuing periodic expressions of gratitude for the information and introspection that has been coming out of this discussion -- let me also say: Thanks VERY much for the support!

I think it would be fun to play amateur book critic

Definitely. I think it waould be a good idea xaosdog. I think you've got a good cross section of the reading public within this thread alone.

Ok Chien de Chaos, if you dare face Bruyere's eyes.

(Remember the Pacman video game and the sound he'd make when he was caught by those ghost things? Make that sound right now.)

The book that I mentioned above that I was hoping would take on some romance fizzled. I'm so angry that I gave this book a chance and stuck by it so long. Had I known that the last page was going to be a "So, you know I admire you. Let's get married. Ok. The end", I wouldn't have bothered taking the time to read the darn thing.

xaosdog (and other authors), please don't forget the romance as I mentioned in an above post. You don't want angry readers.

I would be interested in seeing your work as well, a well-written romance would be a good change for me.

I would definitely love to get on your list to see your first three chapters! This thread has really intrigued me, and really make me re-think the whole 'romance novel' idea. As I guess you've gathered, when I first ran across this thread, I was pretty anti-romance novel. But after reading some of the posts here, I've re-defined just what a romance novel is, and my expectations of one. I still don't think they'll figure promenently in my reading choices, but I would love the chance to preview your efforts, and I will do my upmost to give you a fair and unbiased opinion of what you're writing. (And I absolutely promise to NEVER use the word "drivel"! *grin*)

There IS alot of drivel in the romance novel world, MsBatt. That is why we all appreciate xaosdog for wanting to write a good one, and asking for tips and suggestions on what people would like to read in a romance. I can't wait to read the first draft

I agree with everything you just said, babymoo!

Thanks again for all the support -- and here's hoping I live up to your expectations.

I am saddened to report that I have been required to work the past two weekends, and will have to do so next weekend as well. So I have made NO progress since I told you you could expect me to post something in two months. I may still make that deadline, but don't be surprised if you end up waiting a little longer... My apologies.

Oooh, romance novels. I've read more than I could even begin to count. It used to drive my English professor nuts that I'd read so much 'trash', as they referred to it.

I met a romance novelist this summer. Her name is Cait London, she's written some pretty good stuff and some not so good stuff. But, she gave me a few pointers. She said to start with a 10 chapter outline. The first 3 chapters focus on the characters; their jobs, their family, their problems, etc. The middle three chapters focus on the two characters and their problem. Every couple has to have something to overcome to be together, or there isn't a story. It could be something serious to something silly, but there has to be something. The next 3 chapters focus on the problem solely. You've already established the characters and their attraction, it's time to let the problems keeping them apart have the attention. Then, of course, the last chapter is the make up part.

Sounds easy, don't it? It's kinda rough though. Once again, much to my English professor's chagrin I am working on my first romance novel. It's going quite well. I chose to base my characters on real people I know and real situations I've experienced. I think it's helped me get this book going. I also found that a detailed outline helps, but my best writing has come when I just imagine a scene and write it down.

Humor to me is the sexiest thing to be found in a novel of any kind. I like my characters to be funny and real. My gal character does not wear strappy little sandals or little pieces of lace underwear. She's a real woman with her boots and white Hanes. My man does not say "you little fool" and if he did, the lady would kick his tushy. I like to write in the current day, at least for right now. I will not embark on any sort of historical romance without serious research. And right now I just want to see if I can actually right something.

Of course, the worst part of a romance novel (often historical ones) is when the woman is raped, abused, etc. and then falls in love with her abuser. Absolutely not.

Cait London told me to write what I knew for awhile and then challenge myself with the things I don't know. Make your characters someone you'd like. And pay attention to details. I hate it when in one chapter the person is one age, a few chapters later they are a different age. Or they are playing in the snow in May in Georgia or something. And a proof reader is great.

Did she explain why there has to be a problem to overcome so they can be together, so that there is a story? To me, the having to overcome a problem before they can fall in love and be together plot is overdone to the point of almost being annoying. In real life we don't have to overcome a problem together to be able to fall in love. I realize that books are supposed to be an escape from the ordinary daily routine, but it seems to me that it would be possible for people to be able to just fall in love without the obstacle.

Thanks for your perspective, Cahyay, if you are still looking at this thread.

So, I am experiencing some difficulties, somewhat related to some of what Cahyay had to say.

One piece of her advice was related to writing what you know. My first thoughts along those lines were to set a novel in a law firm like the one where I work, etc. etc. Mostly not an exciting idea for me. I then settled on writing what I know very well, not from life but from a lifetime of study -- saga Iceland. I don't really have a problem with my setting or period at all.

The other advice Cahyay relayed was to start with the outline or synopsis. I think that is right -- even if I ultimately deviate from the proposed track, I need to know that the deviation won't disrupt the balance of the work, and that I am always aiming at a finished product which doesn't leave loose ends, have too many extraneous elements, and ultimately satisfies the escapist urge.

Now, at the time that I proposed to this group that I would sneak-preview my opening chapters to the readers here, I thought I had the skeleton of a synopsis, something that would require fleshing out but already got me from alpha to omega. I now have two chapters complete (in draft form, that is), but also an entire 8"x6" notebook full of outlines and counter-outlines and surrebuttal outlines, and I believe I have to really decide some of these synopsis-level issues before I can draft any further; indeed, the second half of chapter two may have to be scrapped depending on what I decide.

I'd like to canvass the advice of the readers here on two issues, one plot-related and one structure-related.

Plot-Related Issue:

First some background. I think one of the differences between a great romance novel and a trashy one is in the consistency of the protagonist's character. That is, virtually all romances have a female lead who is strong, resourceful, intelligent and beautiful. But then, in the trashy novels, she makes life-choices remarkably similar to those that would be made by a woman who could more accurately be described as weak, underconfident, scatter-brained and beautiful. It seems to me that all too frequently she gives up any claim to resourcefulness and strength in the manner by which she gives herself to or permits herself to be taken by some forceful man. In a great novel, she will either choose a man who not only is worthy of her but also complements rather than dominates her, or she will reject all unworthy suitors and either rely on her own strength or make some wholly unexpected love-related choice. (Or, she can make the permit-herself-to-be-taken choice, but this will be a result of flaws in her character rather than a choice despite her virtues -- but this class of scenarios takes us outside the romance genre, I think.)

So I have a character who is strong, resourceful, intelligent and athletic. More than this, she is a leader, and she is someone who has become so confident in herself that she has transcended the limits of the roles her culture leaves open to its members, whether gender-related or not. So, let us say, she is a truly powerful and effective person and personality.

Well, my first gut feeling was that such a woman could not love any man who shared her background at all. A relationship with anyone who had conscious or unconscious culture-based gender-role expectations of her would be too stifling, would require her to give up too much. So I thought the love interest would have to be with someone from wholly outside her culture, someone with whom she could begin on a blank slate.

Next, I thought that in all honesty she should reject all her "suitors" or potential love interests and instead choose... herself. She might dabble in physical, erotic love, providing the possibility of some sexy scenes, but ultimately reject any lover at the emotional level. The novel would end with the lead surrounded by a nonbiological family of friends and dependents, a rich pseudo-familial emotional network -- but no lover. Would that fly in a romance novel???????

Now I am leaning toward a compromise, where by the end of Book I she appears to be trending in the direction of rejecting all possible lovers, but then in Book II she meets someone (from outside her cultural matrix) who seems in every way to be perfect for her... except for one huge and insurmountable (plot- and character-driven, non-arbitrary) obstacle which they manage to surmount at the very end.

Comments on all that?

These issues are, of course, closely related to the decision I have to face on the...

Structure-Related Issue:

Somehow, I have evolved this complicated structure in my outline, which I am developing doubts about. Is it too "busy"? Should it be simplified?

In short form:

Book I, Part I: in alternating blocks of chapters, tells in parallel (i) the tale of my heroine "F" in the present, returning to Iceland after nine years abroad and (ii) the tale of F in her girlhood, leading up to her departure from Iceland nine years before. Bk I Pt I ends with the reader understanding the weighty significance of F's decision to return home.

Book I, Part II: Having learned how F left Iceland and essentially how she became the strong woman who came back to her childhood home, the rest of Book I relates the challenges F faces in reintegrating into her society and her gradual decision that she cannot love even the most worthy and hunkiest of her suitors, no matter how delicious and shivery he makes her feel. Bk I Pt II ends with a brief meeting with a man I will call S.

Book II, Part I: In alternating blocks of chapters, tells in parallel (i) the tale of F kind of socially shadow-boxing with S but not yet really coming to know him and (ii) the tale of S in his boyhood, showing how it is that he became someone uniquely well-suited for F. Bk I Pt I ends with the reader learning that S is also uniquely ill-suited for F to fall in love with (as indicated, this really will be non-arbitrary and demanded by who S is).

Book II, Part II: Having learned that F and S are in danger of falling in love and yet must not fall in love, the rest of Book II finishes the tale of F's efforts to overcome the many threats to her independence and how through force of character and resourcefulness she carves out a place for herself in a man's world. At the same time, F and S overcome their obstacles to everyone's great surprise and find a way to express and fulfill their love for one another.

Is the tinkering with temporality likely to put readers off? How does all that strike you? If I can finally declare myself satisfied with that outline, I can set to pushing the actual drafting forward without reservation; I have begun with F's return to Iceland. But if I have to change my outline I fear that if I write any more from where I have currently left off it will be for nothing.

Your reactions will be greatly appreciated!

You will have to strike a very delicate balance to make her so stong, resourceful, intelligent etc that she rejects all suitors, yet make her a "decent" person. If it comes across too strongly, she will seem like a cold hearted b----, and readers will take a disliking to her quickly.

I feel it can be done, because I know there are women who feel that no man will make them happy on an emotional or mental (intellectual) level, so they choose not to take a life partner, yet have a wide circle of friends that are like family to her. It just has to be done in a way that the readers will feel warmly towards her. Sure, she will end up having "flings", which will end up satisfying the reader's need for the romance or passion (whichever it ends up being) in the story line, but for whatever reason she chooses (you as the writes chooses), she will reject each suitor. That can be done if there are believable reasons for her rejecting each one.

Another thought that just occured to me, no matter how powerful and strong a woman is ( or man for that matter), we all have a need for love and acceptance in our lives. Even the women who feel they don't need a man as long as they have a good career, or women who are such feminists that they say they would rather not have a man in their lives, somewhere deep inside, there is a need for love. It is human nature to want to be loved and cherished, to find a partner. Having her admit feelings or thoughts about that to a friend, or inner thoughts to herself about it may take away from her strength and resourcefulness etc, but it may endear her to the readers, giving them something they can identify with in the character.

If she does find a suitor and they have the huge obstacle that they can finally overcome at the end, she shouldn't suddenly turn into a weak, insipid puddle of mush for him. That would be too obvious (too overdone) , and also set women back about 200 years. She could have compromises, learn to be less dominate in some areas maybe, yet retain most of who she is, but he would have to make compromises in some areas too. (Since all relationships require compromises.)

Alot also depends on what happened in her girlhood that causes her to decide she cannot love even the most worthy man and leave her homeland. Is it abandonment by a male family member, abuse, the death of someone close to her, seeing women (or one woman) she was close to struggle financially (etc) to stand by a man she loved, knowing that if she had left him she would have been better off financialy (and the heroine is afraid to fall into the same situation) etc.... Each reason that she might have for not being able to get close emotionally would have it's own set of reasons, and for each senario, her reasons would have to be believable




I am not sure if any of what I have said makes any sense or is worth paying attention to, but these are just some thoughts I have had. I am still looking forward to reading the book!

To those of you who are interested:

I have started a web journal, and one of my three reasons for doing so is to report progress on the ol' novel. You are invited to follow my progress there if you like: http://www.livejournal.com/users/xaosdog/

The entry for Decmber 3 relates that I have radically simplified my narrative structure, eliminated all plotlines save for the central plot, changed my mind about what the heroine is going to decide to do with her life. I now feel much more confident about this project qua romance!

As a result of all this, it seems that the two chapters I have in extremely rough but mostly-complete form are now located approximately a third of the way through the book, rather than acting as the opening chapters.

I am now not inclined to really finish those chapters yet, as it seems likely that they will change to one degree or another by the time my narrative catches up to them again.

However, I intend to take some time to go through them, excise some material that now has to be lost from the former Chapter One, make some style-homogenizing changes (my conception was changing so much as I was drafting that I ended up with a somewhat motley draft), and make them available to this group as teaser/foretaste/grist for commentary, as I said I would. Just in more inchoate form than I had envisaged when I made the commitment in the first place. And in a posture more riddled with caveat than I had intended.

So, when I have that available, I will private message those of you who expressed an interest in seeing a sample, and communicate a URL to you where you can find it. (Feel free to reiterate your interest in reply hereto if you want to make sure you don't slip between the cracks.)

Once I've done that, the journal at the URL above will be the only place I will keep posting about the novel, so if you want to keep your fingers on my pulse, you'll have to check back there!

Sneak Preview is up!