Okay...I've finally finished the first week's readings (albeit, a little late in coming, I must confess) and I'm cheered to see that the discussion and analysis has gone on in my absence. Unlike Mr. Pickwick, it's not my intention to make myself the venerable center of attention in this book club, but I do imagine that my input might be desired from time to time.

As the the question of favorite character I must decline to answer at this early point, I'm still developing my opinion about the ragtag collection of individuals that Dickens is assembling for our amusement. I must admit that without Mr. Jingle the first several chapters would have been bereft of intrigue, and hence his name must be tossed into the hat. I have always felt that the villain deserves more praise than he/she gets in literature, the characters can't all be jolly Pickwicks or honorable Sam Wellers (though I'm very fond of those two characters as well, I have to admit!) What about the lady characters thus far? It seems to be that the women in this book are a bit stereotypical, caricatures at best. Then again, many of the male characters do tend to fit a certain mold, which is Dickens' wont, is it not? I had a difficult time retaining my giggles at the thought of Rachael Wardle fawning over Mr. Tupman and Mrs. Bardell the same for old, unsuspecting Pickwick. The elderly and sometimes deaf Granny Wardle provides some comic relief with her crotchety behavior as well, but are we to encounter any solid female characters in the book?

Linda has mentioned the short stories within the story, I think these certainly deserve mention. Within them Dickens can sermonize, dogmatize or simply entertain. Which of these tales do you folks find most thought provoking or amusing? I'm most partial to the Bagman's Story, to be found in Chapter 14. I really enjoyed how direct the chair was in its exhortations of poor, drunken Tom Smart. I loved how the chair would constantly include Tom's name in his conversation, as if it were trying to warm to him in a very familiar way. Speaking of favorite lines, how about this one, "Come, come Tom, that's not the way to address solid Spanish Mahogany!" What are the purposes behind these short tales? I imagine that Dickens was really beginning to develop his social consciousness at this young age, and these short yarns were purposeful in conveying his concerns for the destitute, the mad and the desperate. How about the Madman's Manuscript? Charming but chilling at the same time, perhaps Dickens' attempt to express the very fleeting nature of our sanity? This madman had everything that society urges us to pursue, a beautiful wife, wealth and luxury, fame, and yet his madness consumed him.

Getting back to the characters, insofar as many of them do seem to have been developed as caricatures, perhaps we could give assessments about what human qualities some of these characters are supposed to embody. Would someone dare to venture some suggestions as to the natures of these individuals? Do some of them represent the seven deadly sins, or would that be reading too much into them?

Finally...again let me say how pleased I am to have several people join this club. I think this is a good start to it, I'm guessing we will get even more contributors as time goes on! Cheers to you and happy reading!

I was just thinking about what a pity it is that I was unable to locate a copy of this book. There were various reasons though. However I am checking on this thread and I particularly enjoy those salary things and tidbits you've all hunted up.
Isn't it nice not to have to look at them in the footnotes with a magnifying glass?
It really is frustrating sometimes not to be able to get English books.
I did call three shops before going, none of them had it.
As I have at least ten volumes of Dickens and two bios at home, it's frustrating knowing you've shipped all those books about three times across three seas and yet the one you want isn't there!

So I am with you in spirit if not in body and thanks for asking.

Hmmm ... you've given us a lot to think about there Jazz. It's strange how we each see things in a different way, I never would have thought about a comparison to the deadly sins, but various stories do relate the worst side of human nature. I'll nominate Joe, the Wardles' lazy, young carriage box boy, who was forever falling asleep, as an obvious candidate for sloth. Has anyone any further suggestions for Dickens' sinners?

I've noticed that although Dickens very cleverly presents his readers with a very clear picture of life as it was, he doesn't actually pass judgement. The Stroller's Tale, for example, relates the story of a dying man who spends his last days absolutely terrified that his wife, who he had often beaten and mistreated whilst in a drunken stupor, would get her revenge on him while he lay so weak and helpless. Remember that in those days the physical and mental abuse which went on between man and wife behind closed doors was hardly even frowned upon, and not just among the poorer, working classes either. A woman had no choice other than to accept it as her lot in life if she found herself unlucky enough to have married such a man.

It would be very easy for Dickens to convey his own feelings about such matters through Pickwick's words after hearing the story, but he doesn't. In fact, in several of the tales he makes a point of cutting Pickwick short just as he is about to make some comment on the matter. Dickens seemingly prefers to allow his readers, (the toffs of the day, and us now), to draw their own conclusions as to the ethics and morals, or the lack of them in his characters.

It could be that this is because of his journalistic training in unbiased reporting for the journals, but I prefer to think that he was quite a shrewd young man who knew which side his bread was buttered. I agree that he used this opportunity of writing for a monthly magazine as a vehicle to draw attention to the plight of the poor, the homeless and the abused in society.

Most of the other women in the book do seem to be a lily-livered lot, who feint and swoon away at the slightest upset. Although that might have been due to the ridiculously tight corsets and undergarments worn in those days.

As for Jingle ... well, he was really more of a cad and a bounder than an out and out rogue, and you are right Jazz, without him leading the Pickwickians a merry dance throughout the book, it wouldn't be half as much fun to read. Dickens brings out our sense of justice with him, we find ourselves hoping that Samuel Pickwick will eventually win the day and that Jingle will get his come-uppance in the end, as long as the punishment meted out isn't too severe.

The Convict's Return was really a morality tale wasn't it? The poor woman who lived through all this abuse at the hands of her no good husband, and tried her best to raise her son to be more than his father. The son follows in the father's footsteps, bringing his poor, heart-broken mother more grief, as she wearly trudges out to prison to see him while he seems to have turned his back on all she has suffered to raise him. Then repentance--but too late to help her, or give her comfort. It is a sermon, really isn't it, snuck into all the frivilous doings of Pickwick and friends.How is everyone else coming along with Dickens? I think all the characters are exaggerated--carricutures, you know. That's what makes the women so very vapid and swooning and fit pitching, and the doings of the Pickwickians so outrageous--and so much fun to read.

I am loving every minute. I am now on my way to Dingley Dell again, and looking forward to Christmas , and the wedding.
I found it interesting that the meaning of 'Mother -in-law' has changed since Dickens. It seems to have meant 'Stepmother ' then.
What a wonderful world of exaggerated characters I agree, Linda.
I am trying to think of a strong woman in the whole of Dickens. They mostly seem very hard done by. Anyone?

What strikes me over and over again is the fact that this was Dicken's first novel. If it were reviewed as a first novel today, can you imagine the praise it would receive?
I am very glad we chose this one as the first book to study. It is so lighthearted on one side, and yet the' travellers tales,' and the descriptions of life then are an education. I have heard that the Club was used by Dicken's as a means to parody the Government of England at the time. Comments?

That's an interesting little anecdote in your edition, thanks Tom. When it comes down to politics, the more things change the more they stay as they are. The mudslinging will probably be with us forever, as will the baby kissing publicity stunts which Dickens managed to bring into his election parody.

With so many of us reading different editions it would be really useful if more of these notes were posted here. It could give the rest of us a bit more of an insight into many of the episodes.

That chapter about the debtors' prison at Marshalsea was a harrowing tale, and obviously recollections from Dickens' childhood. What did you all make of that?

Very interesting comments, all.

To add to the 7 deadly sinners list, how about lust and avarice? Several characters exhibit these traits...especially Mr. Tupman when he lusted after the poor old widder aunt, and Jingle with his greedy machinations. I'm fairly certain Dickens had his mind on theses sins as he progressed through his writing, he is fairly keen on abstract personifications...for example, in the next book we read, A Christmas Carol, the Ghost of Christmas Present introduces Scrooge to 'ignorance' and 'want' as personified by two children.

Izzi...interesting points you have made about Dickens and the level at which he is willing to insert his opinions/commentary. I agree with you that he stops at the water's edge vis-a-vis his opinions, allowing the reader to make her/his best judgement regarding the goings on in his work. I do think his journalistic experience paid off for him at a young age, allowing him to write in a rather unbiased fashion, 'reporting' on the events in these characters' lives without having to interpret them for us in any editorial fashion. The Marshalsea episode was a masterful example of this. In a tale of ultimate revenge in which you imagine justice to be done you leave wondering who you feel the most sympathy for. Obviously, the young man who has lost his wife and child deserves our regards in this matter, and I think we all share his interest in gaining justice. But the lustful manner in which he hates, and the very purposeful and underhanded way in which he procures his revenge makes one question the value of it...in the end. I was sympathetic to the old man, the seemingly cold and unfeeling father of the young wife. Is the ruin of one man the solution to an inherent and widespread social problem?

Tom...thank you for your observations about the Dickensian propensity to parady political life. I recently passed through the chapter in which the Pickwick/Magnus row occurs, and I sensed just what you have described after having read the line about the 'ignorance' of Miss Witherfield. Political satire is always a safe bet if an author wishes to garner a very sympathetic and regular readership, just so long as it isn't too pointed in a particular direction...which can be dangerous!

I'm beginning to see more and more the development of Sam Weller as our heroic character, perhaps the only character who isn't a caricature? Could we suspect perhaps that Mr. Weller has a little Dickens in him? Meeting Sam's father was a delight, it has now become clear where Sam gets his very well grounded moral sense and his keen judgment, even despite the elder Weller's unfortunate circumstances regarding Sam's 'mother-in-law'. I loved the pointed jibe from Sam after his father ridiculed Sam for being manipulated by Trotter. Sam simply had to point out his father's entanglement with the ol' widder...touche! I'm beginning to agree with the rest of you, Sam is turning out to be a highly likable fellow. It's remarkable how he seems to show up just in time to save poor Mr. Pickwick in times of need, does he have a sixth sense?

A superficial question about Sam...I'm curious about his quirky speech, and in particular the fact that he pronounces 'way' as 'vay' and 'when' as 'ven'. Is this a Cockney, or is there an implication of something else?

Anyhow...back to the reading (currently I'm ensconced in chapter 25)...everyone else moving along okay?

Dickens apparently met Sam's prototype in Fleet Street. I found this:
Beginning with Pickwick Papers in 1836, Dickens created numerous novels, each uniquely characterized by believable personalities and vivid physical descriptions. In 1858, one year after Little Dorrit was published, Blackwood's Edinburgh Magazine issued a commentary on Dickens's work. The comments are directed toward Pickwick Papers, but they can be applied to any of Dickens' novels, including Little Dorrit.

Dickens led the Muse out into the street, or the muse led him; she took her course up Fleet Street, drived into the borough and turned into the courtyard of a miserable old inn; there she found Sam Weller cleaning boots. Many an elegant novelist, while the traveling-carriage stopped to change horses, had glanced at some such figure and noted an accidental oddity of manner and speech. Charles Dickens, loitered up the yard, entered into conversation, got into the very heart of the man, chose him for his hero and presented him before the world at large. The world at large received him with open arms (Blackwood's, 83 [1858]: 59-60).

This ability of Dickens', to notice the uniqueness of a speech pattern and see that it made up an essential aspect of a person's character, can be seen clearly in Little Dorrit.
I am happily reading chapter 35. poor Pickwick is about to enter an unpleasant episode in his life.
From the wonderful quotes department:
"I am afeered that werges on the poetical, Sammy" (Mr Weller while listening to Sams efforts to compose a Valentine for Mary.)

At the beginning of "Great Expectations", Dickens also used "w" for "v" when the convict was talking. I can't remember quotes, but I do remember the convict saying he was a conwict, and wanting some wittles (vittles).

Vat a wery fine point you 'ave made, Tom, thankee.

I do recall that the convict in Great Expectations (Magwich) also carried this same Cockney in his speech...thanks for the reminder Babymoo! It seems that he also was a hero in that novel, suggesting to me that Dickens had a very special place in his heart for the 'common man'.

Thanks, jazz! I was trying to remember his name and couldn't. I agree with your thinking that Dickens had a special place in his heart for the common man. (Or "the rest of us" as I like to call it)

Ah, that puts a new light on things Tom, great research, and you too Ren. I hadn't realised that Cockneys actually talked in that manner. It is strange that both the v's and w's could be pronounced but were just transposed. I just thought it was Dickens making fun of the affected speech of some of the aristocracy allowing his character Sam to talk that way.

One of my favourite 'Wellerisms' so far is an example: 'Out of the vay, young leathers. "If you walley my precious life don't upset me", as the gen'l'm'n said to the driver when they was a-carryin' him to Tyburn.'

They generally say that British humour doesn't travel very well, so it would be interesting to find out how some of you from other countries are finding it. How about Copago and Lo, are you both enjoying the humour in the book so far??

Jazz, I'm doing just fine--in fact I finished the book Thursday night, but I had to return it yesterday to the library. I'd already renewed it once. Hopefully, they'll let check it out again sometime next week.

Izzi, I didn't know what to make of Sam's V and W's. It's good to find out that this wasn't just Dickens making fun of his speech--Sam's still my favorite character, and his Wellerisms have really made the book for me.

I read Great Expections, too, babymoo, but it's been so long ago, I've almost forgotten the story--except for the old lady in her wedding dress and the wedding cake covered in cobwebs--maybe I ought to reread it?

It actually took me 4 tries to read Great Expectations, Linda The first time was in high school - required reading - and requiring a teen to read a classic novel is the best way to make it a BORING book The second and third times were my idea, but I just couldn't get through the first couple chapters. I guess I had it in my head that I didn't like it, because of high school. The 4th time, I found the first couple chapters to be "dry", but once I got past them, I loved it and plan to read it again. You might want to re read it, because it is a great book. Miss Havisham was (and is) the character that always stuck out in my mind too.

Izzi, I think the North Sea is not such a big obstacle for the British humor! I find the book very amusing and often I'm laughing out loud while I'm reading!

Too bad Sam's accent is completely lost in the translation... If you guys hadn't mentioned it, it would have gone entirely past me!

I'm so glad to hear that you're enjoying Pickwick's escapades Lo. There are so many episodes which have made me laugh out loud, but the following excerpt from chapter 28 about the fun under the mistletoe stands out for me.

.......

From the centre of the ceiling of this kitchen, old Wardle had just suspended, with his own hands, a huge branch of mistletoe, and this same branch of mistletoe instantaneously gave rise to a scene of general and most delightful struggling and confusion; in the midst of which, Mr. Pickwick, with a gallantry that would have done honour to a descendant of Lady Tollimglower herself, took the old lady by the hand, led her beneath the mystic branch, and saluted her in all courtesy and decorum. The old lady submitted to this piece of practical politeness with all the dignity which befitted so important and serious a solemnity, but the younger ladies, not being so thoroughly imbued with a superstitious veneration for the custom, or imagining that the value of a salute is very much enhanced if it cost a little trouble to obtain it, screamed and struggled, and ran into corners, and threatened and remonstrated, and did everything but leave the room, until some of the less adventurous gentlemen were on the point of desisting, when they all at once found it useless to resist any longer, and submitted to be kissed with a good grace. Mr. Winkle kissed the young lady with the black eyes, and Mr. Snodgrass kissed Emily; and Mr. Weller, not being particular about the form of being under the mistletoe, kissed Emma and the other female servants, just as he caught them. As to the poor relations, they kissed everybody, not even excepting the plainer portions of the young lady visitors, who, in their excessive confusion, ran right under the mistletoe, as soon as it was hung up, without knowing it! Wardle stood with his back to the fire, surveying the whole scene, with the utmost satisfaction; and the fat boy took the opportunity of appropriating to his own use, and summarily devouring, a particularly fine mince-pie, that had been carefully put by, for somebody else.

Now, the screaming had subsided, and faces were in a glow, and curls in a tangle, and Mr. Pickwick, after kissing the old lady as before mentioned, was standing under the mistletoe, looking with a very pleased countenance on all that was passing around him, when the young lady with the black eyes, after a little whispering with the other young ladies, made a sudden dart forward, and, putting her arm round Mr. Pickwick's neck, saluted him affectionately on the left cheek; and before Mr. Pickwick distinctly knew what was the matter, he was surrounded by the whole body, and kissed by every one of them.

It was a pleasant thing to see Mr. Pickwick in the centre of the group, now pulled this way, and then that, and first kissed on the chin, and then on the nose, and then on the spectacles, and to hear the peals of laughter which were raised on every side;

......

A masterpiece of observation, Dickens has soaked up the whole scene and captured it to perfection for us. What a wonderfully clever piece of writing, we could so easily be in the room with them all.

Am not a member of the Club, but accidentally discovered I have
an old second-hand copy of the "Pickwick Papers" in my library.
Started browsing a bit in here and also in the book. Somehow what I read, reminded me of Chaucer's Pilgrims. Of course this may be a fully incompetent "impression". Yet aren't there a few similarities? Both authors adopting a fairly tolerant view towards their characters. Except towards the real scoundrels of course. A strong sympathy with representatives of very different layers of English society, including the so-called "uneducated" classes. (Chaucer's "Miller"). The art of indirect and humorous criticism ("Wife of Bath"). Characterising people through their speech. Sympathy for those who enjoy life, including wine, women and song. Inns and food getting a central role. Characters often well organised in interesting antitheses.
But then I started wondering? Isn't this a recurrent theme in English literature? Didn't Smollett write similar books? People travelling around, discovering each other's characters during and via the incidents of their journey? Isn't English literature somewhat more "extravert" in all this than French novels which
often focus on a very small number of heroes/heroines, psychologising everything rather than situating characters in a wider context.
For sure there is a lot of difference between the Chaucerian
world and Dickens' Victorian age. But still..Somehow the same "England"?
Well, it's none of my business as I have not been able to join the readers' club in time, but is there anyone of you who could/ would either refute or corroborate my impression?
While browsing on the Internet I came across this Dickens site which I liked a lot : www.fidnet.com/~dap1955/dickens/characters.html

I think your theory is very interesting indeed . I had never thought of so much English Literature being based on a travelling/meeting people theme. It is certainly true of so many works we love. That is an excellent site by the way. As to being too late to join the 'Club' , I don't think there is a time limit, or anything like that. I am sure you, and your interesting ideas, are most welcome Flem-ish

I can certainly see the similarities now that you've mentioned them Flem-ish. Pickwick might not be quite the heroic figure but he displays many of the same noble qualities as Chaucer's Knight; leadership, chivalry, honour, a strong sense of justice and compassion towards his fellow travelling companions.

We also get the feeling through the narrative style that Chaucer felt as strongly about some of the members of the clergy as Dickens did about the legal profession.

Flem...welcome to the club...please feel free to join in at any time, there is no exclusivity among our members, unlike the true Pickwickians! Everyone is welcome to express his/her opinion here...the more the merrier.

I'm up to chapter 37 now, the Pickwickians have recently arrived in Bath. I read through the trial (chapter 34) I think. It's safe to say the legal profession was just as well esteemed in the early 19th century as it is today! Honestly...Mrs. Bardell's lawyers were awful, weren't they? It seems to me also that local officials and judges were even more imperious back then than they are today, luckily Pickwick was tried by jury!

Interesting, the names of these inns. The George and Vulture. Where would such a curious name come from? Are inns such as this one and the White Hart actual places, or should I say 'were'?

Izzi...to answer your question about humor...yes, I believe it translates quite well. The humor can be quite subtle at times, especially Sam Weller's comments. His remarks are nearly always indirect and often sarcastic or ironic. I think that's what gives him the edge over the rest of the individuals in this book, he is often talking to the audience with his clever remarks. He reminds me of the omnipresent 'fool' character in Shakespeare's plays. They always seem to be one step ahead of the rest of the cast, though they are regarded by all else as simpletons. There is such a divide between Sam and Pickwick throughout this book, much like the relationship between the fool and King Lear. I wonder if Sam and Pickwick grow more alike in some ways by the end of the book, perhaps not amalgamating like the King Lear characters, but at least coming to some common understanding. Pickwick is so much older than Sam, but Sam so much more wise...it's shocking how naive Pickwick can be at times!

Oh yes, by the way...I have concocted an official 'Pickwick Papers' quiz in Quizzyland, on the first 13 chapters. I'll let you know when it's up and running. I can just imagine how popular it will be...5 people will probably dare to play it. I think you folks will perform well, if you so wish to give it a try.

Cheers!

Here is the link to the quiz...indulge yourself if you wish... Pickwick Papers Quiz.