On the George and Vulture, I've just found the following on the Web:

Originally, the tavern was merely named the George but when the big blaze of 1666 swept through these alleys it devoured everything in its path and left the George as a shell of charred embers. A wine merchant of George Yard, whose sign was a tethered live vulture, lost his home and his livelihood, and after the tavern was rebuilt he negotiated with the landlord for part use of the George. Unhappy with the idea of having a live bird squawking around the door he agreed to change the name of his house to the George and Vulture.

http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/Cabana/9424/page7.html

If this is correct, my guess about the origin of the name was partly right.

What a good quiz, Jazz!! (I have no proof that I got full marks as I went in as a guest!) As I say , it is a very good quiz.

Jazz, "The Pickwick Papers Chapters 1 - 13" is an absolutely perfect example of how to compile a quiz. Reading the questions, answers, and additional information, you get a great résumé of the story. I admit I had to think back pretty hard to remember what happened to the Pickwickians' chaise on the way to Dingley Dell.

Jazz, great quiz! It was a good possibility to see if I remembered anything from what I read. And thank God I did!

Just taken your excellent quiz Jazz, it really was good fun. Your 'merrikin' humour travels extremely well too!! Not quite such a perfect score as ren or Tom, but I'll be taking notes in preparation of the follow-ups to come.

Tom, brilliant information once again. We do have some wonderful old pubs in the UK, the strange names of which have been corrupted over the years.

A few examples:

The Elephant and Castle - Infanta de Castille
The Bull and Gate - Boulogne Gate
The Pig and Whistle - piggin (cup) wassail (drink)
Goat and Compasses - God encompasseth
The Bag o' Nails - the Bacchanals

there are hundreds more, many with historical or biblical foundations.

I've just finished the book, and thanks, Jazz, for suggesting such an enjoyable introduction to the Club.

In reply to:

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Pickwick is so much older than Sam, but Sam so much more wise...it's shocking how naive Pickwick can be at times!

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Yes, I agree, and this leads me on to consider what may be one of Dickens's weaker points, though I speak from very little knowledge.

Pickwick does have a little bit of savvy. His "experience of men" has taught him (as he says at the White Hart) that the best way to get information is to offer money for it. No doubt Dickens, as a practising journalist, would have discovered this as well! He has also learned that in situations like the Eatanswill election it's best to do what the mob does.

But for the most part he's pretty naive. Now naivety can be a likeable characteristic, but it doesn't usually make people rich. If we were told that Pickwick had inherited a pile of money, his situation in life would be credible. But he tells us in the final chapter that "nearly the whole of my previous life (has) been devoted to business and the pursuit of wealth". Somehow I can't imagine Pickwick managing to get hold of very much wealth if he had to "pursue" it. Surely he'd be taken to the cleaners by men like Jingle offering him the freehold of the Bank of England together with half a ton of gold bricks?

Of course, this doesn't matter much here because the book is essentially a light-hearted comedy and we don't look at the background very closely. But I can't help thinking (though, as I said earlier, I'm pretty ignorant of Dickens's works), that Dickens has very little idea of the workings of business or of how money is made, and that this is something of a failing. He's obviously picked up a good deal of knowledge about the workings of the law: he knows how serjeants, solicitors, and miscellaneous hangers-on do their jobs, even if he presents it all in a satirical fashion. But what on earth do his benevolent rich men like Mr Brownlow in Oliver Twist actually do? For that matter, in A Christmas Carol, what line of business exactly is the firm of Scrooge & Marley in? I don't think we know, and I don't think Dickens really thought about it either. If we're expected to find his philanthropists (including Pickwick) admirable because they give their money away, shouldn't we be told how they made it in the first place?

As a child, I used to collect names of pubs. I had a huge notebookful of them I wish I had kept it.

Interesting points there Tom!! As far as Pickwick's wealth is concerned we are told in Chapter 34 at the trial that "Mr. Pickwick has retired from business and is a gentleman of considerable independant property". Of course, in this instance we are not told whether he inherited this wealth or whether he'd worked for it, but I'm not sure that we really need to know how a benevolent philanthropist came by their money in order to appreciate the good that has become of it.

I don't tend to see Dickens' lack of business acumen as a failing or weakness, but as an integral aspect of his complex personality. Dickens was very much a humanitarian, even as a comparatively young man, who placed little value on materialistic things. This was quite evident throughout his work, and I believe that being so down to earth it had the effect of increasing his popularity as a writer, which in turn put him into a position where he could make a positive contribution to some of his causes. Many of Dickens' characteristics were probably instilled in him at an early age by his father, who himself seems to have just taken every day as it came and placed little importance on money, holding an attitude of 'easy come - easy go', perhaps a little to excess being as he had family responsibilities. Dickens certainly held his father's view of man in general, he didn't appear to judge his fellow men by their outwardly appearance, but by the qualities he took the trouble to find within them. His eternal optimism leading him to believe that no-one is ever completely beyond redemption, as we've found evident in his writings. We see that time and again throughout his books in many of his characters, but probably most notably the convict character Magwich, who babymoo mentioned earlier, and Scrooge.


Ren ... it's never too late to start again on a hobby which gives pleasure!!

Well my friends, thank you for having dared to attempt that Pickwick Papers quiz, I'm glad that you were able to find enjoyment with it...it was written expressly for you, as will be its follow ups!

Interesting list of pub names Tom, what a cheerful concept all of these odd named pubs. I believe that Mr. Tabbytom has a quiz all about pub names in literature, by the way...for any of you folks who are interested. I have taken the liberty of making a link to it... Pubs in Literature

I'll have some more comments regarding the book quite soon, I am reading the culminating chapters, what a wonderful book!

I finished it last night and have yet another hilarious example of up-to-date humour to share. I hooted aloud on the commuter train, again (and on a Chinese packed train at night that is most attention getting. I am once again branded as a 'mad gweipo'
"and out of the money,two hundred pound, agreeable to a rekvest o' your mother-in-law's to me a little afore she died, vill be inwested in your name in-wot do you call them things agin?
Wot things?"inquired Sam.
Them things as is always a goin up and down , in the City."
"Omnibuses?"suggested Sam"

I've still got a little way to go before I finish off the book, but I really am savouring every chapter, Dickens was an exceptional writer for his tender years.

Jazz, you mentioned that perhaps there was a little of Dickens in his character Sam. I have to agree with you that there appear to be many similarities between the two. I think it's clear that Dickens shared the same warm, close, respectful relationship with his own father that Sam does with his in the book. They do share many admirable traits, but on the other hand Dickens was often spoiling for a fight. Not fisticuffs of course like Sam, who was always a little too eager to defend someone in a matter of honour, but Dickens was openly argumentative throughout his adult life and frequently litigious.

As has been said, there are many aspects of Dickens' early life which seemed to haunt him and are often referred to in many of his books. The poor, hard done by children who crop up as a regular occurence, and Tom mentioned the benevolent benefactor who pops up occasionally to drastically change the life of a main character. Also prisons and law courts tend to figure largely in many of Dickens' books.

Are there other aspects of Dickens' personality in other characters, either in Pickwick Papers or any of his other works? What about his relationship with women for example ... his mother, wife and mistresses?

We didn't get round to apportioning the rest of the seven deadly sins either, any nominations for the rest?

Again, thank you for the interesting comments and obserwations folks, I'm really enjoying the alternate perspectives that are being brought forth here. I've never had the pleasure of being involved in a book club, I think the last time I read any great books with others was in my first couple years of college.

Pride and envy, pride and envy. Perhaps Pickwick could be nominated for pride, refusing to accept the verdict in the Pickwick vs. Bardell case, rather choosing to languish in the Fleet. Of couse, obstinance would be a better word for this, but perhaps pride is involved as well? I sure didn't want to see him give up a single penny to either Bardell or to Dodson and Fogg. As for envy, this is more difficult to locate in the book. I can't think of any examples offhand.

Speaking of the situation with Mrs. Bardell, I think the entire case is the turning point in Pickwick's life. It seems that he does learn a lessor or two from it. Remember in chapter 39 when Pickwick insists on accompanying Winkle over to see Miss Arabella Allen. Pickwick did not want there to be any chance that Winkle would become 'entrapped', as Pickwick had with the widder Bardell. Of course, we also may imagine that he is simply acting on his paternal instincts, not wanting his protege to make any dubious errors in his wooing of the lovely Miss Allen. Pickwick also has grown in his handling of Jingle while in the Fleet. Rather than receding from Jingle and the unfortunate Job Trotter, Pickwick chooses to take up their case and give them the desperate support that they need. Also, Pickwick does eventually swallow his pride and pays the costs of the court case, another point of growth...he considers the predicament of Sam Weller, Mrs. Bardell, etc. in this decision. I think Pickwick really 'grows up' in this book.

The little episode with the 'scientific gentleman' recalls Tom's comments from earlier in the thread, about the silly pursuits of the various scientific societies in England at the time. Dickens' really must have thought very little of these pseudo-scientific charlatans, I can imagine their abundance at the time based on his contempt. It reminds me of all the people nowadays who fancy themselves experts on UFOs, mysterious monsters and the like. I suppose people need excitement and entertainment in their lives eh?

I really enjoy the very descriptive approach Dickens takes. He was being paid by the word, and he seems to spare no expense in developing imagery. This fact I think helps us to understand the inner workings and the environment in the Fleet debtors prison. I think we get a fair and accurate description of what it must have been like in one of these nasty places, it certainly didn't sound accomodating, even in Pickwick's individual room. I think Dickens was doing a public service by helping people to understand the conditions in this execrable place.

Finally, I must say I'm really pining for a virtuous female character who plays a notable role in the book, but I realize that such a character is nowhere to be found. It will be nice to read Jane Austen for that purpose. I think this might have been one of Dickens' failings, a bit too male-centric in his writing?

I think Ren and Linda also mentioned earlier about the lack of powerful female characters in Dickens' books. The only one I can think of is the notorious Madame Defarge in A Tale of Two Cities, but her strength was fueled by vengeance and hatred. Even so, Miss Pross got the upper hand over her in the end, which I have to say seemed highly improbable to me. Another of Dickens' little moral tales for us - goodness will always triumph over evil.

You know, if it hadn't been for our book club, I'd never tried Pickwick Papers--and I'd never known what I'd missed! I have thoroughly enjoyed reading it. I still have to say that my favorite character still is Sam, but I really like Mr. Pickwick and all the members of the Club, too.I just want to tell Tom, izzi, Jazz, Ren and babymoo, and everyone who have been joining in on the discussion, how much I enjoy their insights and how much it adds to understanding the book. I really enjoyed Jazz's Pickwick Quiz, too, very much. I hope there'll be more coming?

I agree, Linda! I loved reading what others had to say, and seeing this book through other points of view. It made me think about the book in more depth and detail than if I had just read it on my own. I haven't taken the Pickwick quiz yet, but if I can ever drag myself out of the forums (mostly the chain games ) long enough to get over to Quizzyland, I am going to take it.

Oh yes, I have to agree with you, I'm very much enjoying the experience of participating in this book club. Being a part of this group has really made me sit back and think about the book in much greater depth than I perhaps normally would and given me the incentive to question the motives and themes behind the words of the author.

The excellent research and fine details which Tom, in particular, has been able to source for us is amazing and has really helped to bring the whole era to life for me.

I look forward to our second book of the month and relish the opportunity of sharing views with you all once again.

I have added yet another quiz for your review...I hope this helps you recall a bit the excitement of the book...good luck!


The Pickwick Papers, part 2

Another excellent quiz, Jazz. My memory of the details of the novel seems to be fading already.

Mine too, Tom, I got two wrong this time. Great Quiz Jazz

Yet another wonderful quiz Jazz, great entertainment!!

Izzi, I agree. Jazz's new Pickwick Papers quiz was a lot of fun to take--he's done a wonderful job.

Thank you again folks, I'm glad you enjoyed it. Here's the penultimate quiz:

Pickwick Papers Quiz 3

Anyone want to make some final comments about this book? Has everyone been able to finish the book up? I know that a few of us have publicly announced our having completed it, but we haven't heard from everyone. Should we spoil the outcome here? I don't think there are any major surprises at the end, it's nice how Dickens wraps things up with the Pickwickians. I think it's interesting how Dickens kind of immortalizes Pickwick while at the same time showing that he becomes sedentary and physically older. Sam's choice about staying with Pickwick is typically admirable, and his relationship with Mary is just what we all would have hoped.

Any other final verdicts on the book? I loved it!

I finally finished it, but I must confess I am going to have to read it again at another time, to catch it all. For some reason, I usually have to read Dickens books a couple times to really get them to sink in. Reading everyones insights and thoughts helped alot, but I do intend to re read it in the future. It was an excellent book. (I have read A Christmas Carol a few times already, so I am not having any problems sailing right through it )

And finally, the last installment...enjoy!

Pickwick Papers, Quiz 4 (last one)