Welcome, Beth! I am so glad you joined us, and glad you enjoyed Jazz's Pickwick quizzes.You know, I was just reading a short story by Dickens, and there was a little bio of him in the book The World of Mystery Fiction, edited by Elliot L. Gilbert. It says that his father was thrown into debtor's prison when Dickens was only 11, and he had to go to work in a blacking factory. So he definitely had an understanding of the plight of the very poor. That remark of Scrooge's "Are there no prisons?... And the Union workhouses..Are they still in operation" really hit home with Dickens, didn't it?

Ren, what a wonderful story. Father Christmas will always be alive, won't he, as long as there is one person out there who still loves Christmas Carol.

Beth, What a wonderful Christmas tradition. When school breaks for the Holidays on the 21st, I'm hoping to get my own daughter interested in letting us read Christmas Carol together. I think she will love it. I'd love it if we could read it as family with my husband, her, and I taking turns.

Hi Beth! I am glad you have decided to join us!

Thanks for the background information, Linda. I never knew that Dickens' father was thrown into debtor's prison or that he had gone to work in the blacking factory. I always took Scrooge's line about the prisons and Union workhouses as just a comment caused by his stinginess. Now that I know Dickens' background on the matter, the line takes on a deeper meaning.

I also like your explanation of the fact that there is no sense of time in the spirit world as a possible way that all 3 spirits visited in one night. I hadn't thought of it that way, but it makes alot of sense.

One thing I really love is how the first two spirits talk to Scrooge throughout their visits, telling him things, yet the 3rd spirit doesn't talk. That gives Scrooge the chance (or forces him) to figure things out for himself. Even though he was well on his way to transforming before the 3rd spirit came, I feel that he made the most progress by reasoning things out for himself based on what he saw.

I think it is supposed to be a mixture of a dream and real life.

I think the spirits are supposed to be understood as being real, but I don’t believe all of the events are supposed to be taken literally. For example, when the story said Scrooge went back in time, I don’t think he really went back in time, but rather it was just a dream.

I think it is to be assumed that the spirits could communicate with the living in the dream world and while people are awake because we are supposed to be reading and understanding from the point-of-view of the Victorian English (a time when this would be a reasonable belief).

I believe the three ghosts were communicating with Scrooge while he was asleep. The only thing that is not explained by this theory is the hearse. I’ve never heard of nonliving things haunting people.

Either way, to explain the dreams, even today there are people who say they have had dreams that reminded them of things that they have forgotten or they say that things have happened in dreams only to have it take place a while later. I read an article on ananova.com, I believe the news was from England, where a woman dreamt that she was going to have a baby the same time as her sister, only to have it really happen.

Perhaps these dreams are those types of dreams and spirits are merely chauffeurs who are explaining all.

He might have "seen" the hearse because after seeing Marley's face in the knocker, his imagination more than likely went wild. I think that it was part of the "haunting" of the night. At any rate, it was a wonderful addition to the book, because it really gives me a chill and sets me up for the ghostly visitors.

Lanni and izzi are both right. The true beauty of a Christmas Carol, and the reason it is still so popular, is that Dickens really lets us decide for ourselves. I think the important message is that even Scrooge, who has a long life of spreading misery, can be redeemed. As it's already been said, it's a Christmas story with actually being overtly religious. It makes us all feel good, doesn't it, but it is no way preachy.

Babymoo, there is a wonderful ghost story about a hearse coach pulled by black phantom horses that supposedly haunted one particular family, (isn't that Creepy??). I think it was in one of Nancy Roberts's books that I read some time back. If I can remember where I read it, or can find reference to the book, I'll let you know. She has a series of wonderful books on stories she collects-ghosts, ghostly lights, haunted places, ghost hounds, lighthouses, etc. that you might enjoy. She sometimes is credited with her husband, Bruce Roberts.

http://members.aol.com/MercStG2/GOEANGPage1.html
These are good ones . They are mostly supposed to be ghosts seen around Cambridge. Some ghost hearses there!
Getting away from ghosts, is anyone reading an "A Christmas Carol" version with Dickens' other Christmas stories included in the book? I had never read the others, which include "The Chimes"and "The Cricket and the Hearth" they are all very good reads . I am really enjoying them too.

I was just going to suggest that anyone in California right now visit the Dickens Christmas fair...I actually got to participate as I played and sold fifes and flutes for a craftsman in full costume...many years ago, but it's still an event to visit. I did it about five days and had a good time there. The crafts were very high quality as I believe they used the same people as the Renaissance faire.

This link shows the characters that roam through the Cow Palace exhibition hall...including our friend Marley.
http://www.dickensfair.com/characters.htm

I will check out both of those links later today, because I am pressed for time now, Ren and Bruyere. Both have my interest up.... I love a good chill from a ghost story, and I would love to visit the Dickens Christmas fair, so I want to check out both links.

The book I am reading has "The Chimes" and "The Cricket and the Hearth" on it. I read them a few months ago when I checked the book out - I was needing a little Christmas in August - but I am re reading them, and enjoying them just as much as the first time.

After looking at the photo galleries of the Dickens Fair, I want to go to one! I may have to start saving my pennies for the trip.

I have read through some of the ghost stories. Creepy! I'm definitely going to be reading the rest. There is a library about 50 miles away that is supposedly haunted by a woman in gray. The library's website has a ghost cam that you can sit and watch to see if she shows up, and the local paper of that town also has the library's ghost cam on their website. I have never actually sat and watched it, because I doubt I would ever see anything, but it is interesting that it is such a huge part of local lore and so many people are interested. They even offer ghost tours of the library (it is a very old mansion that a family donated to the city to be used as a library).

The Cricket and the Hearth to me is another masterpiece of narrative. What a build up! I was completely deceived at John being shown Dot's "Faithlessness", by the toymaker. I loved it. I am now reading another short story, never seen before , called the' Battle of Life.' I have also discovered that the local bookshop is selling paperbacks of Dicken's Works at knock down prices (for Hong Kong. ) Oh joy, I am building up my collection again, having left my real versions in UK 25 years ago! So this week I bought "Little Dorrit" and " Martin Chuzzlewit." I know what I shall be up to as soon as school is out.
Jazz and all Book Corner members, we may all be a bit busy for the next week or so, so I want to :
1. Thank Jazz for providing such a great forum for us . Thanks for all your hard work on here Dear Boy.
2. Wish everyone a very happy time at Christmas. Have fun Hope you get lots of books from Santa. XXX S
"God Bless us Every One!"

I know the next two weeks are going to be busy for me, but I plan to make time for FT. (Well, I will have to come get my "fix" every day Actually, the shopping is 99% done, everything bought so far is wrapped, the cards are sent out..... for once I am almost ahead

I hope everyone has a great Christmas/holiday season!

Ren, well thank you as well for your contributions to these discussions, and thank all of you for taking time out to participate and read these great works. I hope everyone will hop over and join the discussion on 'The Aeneid' next month as well...don't be shy!

Shall we begin a discussion on the 3 ghostly visits? Which of the visits has the most profound impact on Scrooge, and why? Which visit do you think is most effective in drawing out Scrooge's more benevolent, philanthropic side?

On the face of it, the greatest impact is made by the last ghost - the silent, sombre Ghost of Christmas Yet to Come. But the last ghost could not have had this effect without the work of the previous two. After all, if one of the visitors to Scrooge's counting-house on Christmas Eve had said "When you die, nobody will miss you and nobody will feel anything but happiness and relief", I don't think Scrooge would have cared in the least. As Dickens tells us in the first chapter:

Nobody ever stopped him ... to say, with gladsome looks, "My dear Scrooge, how are you?" ... No beggars implored him ...no children asked him what it was o'clock ...But what did Scrooge care? It was the very thing he liked ... To edge his way along the crowded paths of life, warning all human sympathy to keep its distance, was what the knowing ones call "nuts" to Scrooge.

Scrooge's change of heart is gradual, and very carefully presented as a series of realizations on Scrooge's part of what has gone wrong with him and how he can (as Marley suggested) still make amends.

The Ghost of Christmas Past shows Scrooge how he has increasingly shut himself off from human contact, how he suppressed the imagination which once enabled him to be happy in an otherwise miserable childhood, how he cut himself off from a sister who loved him and from the prospect of a happy married life of his own. The sight of his own former misery in the schoolroom awakens the first regret for a recent missed opportunity ("There was a boy singing a Christmas carol at my door last night. I should like to have given him something, that's all"). Then we see how Scrooge's father, who once boarded his son out at school even during the Christmas holidays, softened under the daughter's influence (a hint that Scrooge himself might also be open to influence). When the Ghost mentions Scrooge's nephew, Scrooge "seemed uneasy in his mind" - another indication of a gradual rebirth of human feeling. Fezziwig's party make Scrooge think that "I should like to say a word or two to my clerk just now". When he is made to relive his parting from Belle, he exclaims "Why do you delight to torture me?" and Belle's husband's description of him as "quite alone in the world" makes him say "Remove me! I cannot bear it!", whereas only a few hours before it was "nuts" to him to care for nobody and to have nobody care for him.

So Scrooge is already experiencing a rebirth of sympathy with his fellow humans when the Ghost of Christmas Present comes on the scene. As Scrooge watches the poor taking their dinners to the bakers' shops to cook, he condemns the attempts of the great and the good to deprive them of their one decent meal in the week in the name of Sunday observance. Later, at the sight of Tiny Tim, he feels impelled to ask "with an interest he had never felt before, 'Tell me if Tiny Tim will live'", and later still he is shown Ignorance and Want. When the "portly gentlemen" had described the misery of the poor to him he had replied "I don't know that." "But you might know it," they had replied. And now he has come to know it, and is filled with remorse as his own recent words are turned against him.

So, after these lessons, Scrooge can deduce for himself, without any words from the Ghost of Christmas Yet to Come, what the scenes of the future mean, and what he must do if he wishes to avoid the apparent fate in store for him.

Despite the terrible aspect of the Ghost of Christmas Yet to Come and the sombreness of the scenes that he shows, I'd say that the Ghost of Christmas Past is probably the most influential simply because he begins the process on which the others build. He sows the first seeds of regret in Scrooge's heart.

I agree with you Tom, Scrooge only utters a few words to each ghost as the scenes are set before him, but those words speak volumes.

In reply to:

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As Scrooge watches the poor taking their dinners to the bakers' shops to cook, he condemns the attempts of the great and the good to deprive them of their one decent meal in the week in the name of Sunday observance.

---

This is something which Dickens felt very strongly about, and he actually wrote and distributed a pamphlet about the injustices of the poor, entitled "Sunday Under Three Heads", under the pseudonym Timothy Sparks.

A little lengthy, but well worth reading if you have the time, it really is a bit of an eyeopener.

A relevant snippet from the pamphlet:

"Sunday is the only day on which they could all meet together, and enjoy a homely meal in social comfort; and now they sit down to a cold and cheerless dinner: the pious guardians of the man's salvation having, in their regard for the welfare of his precious soul, shut up the bakers' shops. The fire blazes high in the kitchen chimney of these well-fed hypocrites, and the rich steams of the savoury dinner scent the air. What care they to be told that this class of men have neither a place to cook in - nor means to bear the expense, if they had?"

You just might change my mind, TabbyTom. After reading your post, I am sitting here saying, "Yup, that's true!"

All along I have felt that even though the first two ghosts opened Scrooge's eyes and heart to the errors of his past and let him see all the ways that his life could have been better had he responded to situations differently, that the last ghost made the biggest imapct. The first two set the stage for the workings of the third, by chipping away at the veneer around Scrooge's heart.

By letting Scrooge reason everything out for himself (the ghost didn't speak to tell him anything), Scrooge was able to see clearly what he had to do to change his life.

But now I am starting to agree with Tabby, the Ghost of Christmas Past showed him how happy he was in the past, even if a situation may not have been a happy one, he was able to rise above it. Scrooge was also able to see how he started transforming into his present, unhappy state, and what the consequences were.

So, now I am torn between saying it was the first ghost and the third ghost. I will have to think on it some more. Maybe another reading..... I've already read it twice since checking it out from the libary a week ago. I love that for such a short book (takes a little less than an hour to read) it has such a profound impact.

All right Tom, when you put it that way, but I was already disposed in my own mind, I actually feel sorry for the old codger Scrooge, imagine how hard it is to withstand being shown what a poor excuse for a person you've been, in full technicolor visions, by supernatural beings in whom you don't believe and do a turnaround?

I knew someone, still do, who's a bit like him, and like the Tarzan or jungle picture where he's in a pit of quicksand rapidly sinking, and the hero reaches into his heart and gives him a branch to cling to rather than letting him sink, and he still can't take the branch...Scrooge did take the branch after all.

You have to admire Scrooge for withstanding the full impact of seeing what a loser he was!

I read the first part to my children, by force I admit, they are teasing me about being frightened of the door knocker...yet, I can hear the younger one listening just the same, and then, they called me in and put the Disney version on the video player. And they both watched it!
Ok ok, my reading skills didn't hold up to Disney's version with Donald Duck, but, at least it sparked their imaginations a bit.

My other thoughts about this gem of a story though, are to how I've seen people get into such a rut as Scrooge, it really isn't as hard as one thinks...they simply begin clinging to a routine which permits them to live, shutting out much of what's around them, and eventually losing contact with reality and the good side of life. That's scarier than the door knocker...think I'll go put the heater on in here.

Heather, I think you are exactly right. It is all too easy for people to get set in their ways. A surprising thing, too, is that the wealthiest couple we know here is the "Scroogiest", and the most generous hearted one, actually has the least in material things. Money can't buy richness of spirit. It's a shame those three spirits couldn't visit a few more houses.

I think while certainly all three spirits were responsible for Scrooge's change of heart, if I had to pick the one spirit that would have effected me the most (if I was in Scrooge's place), I would have to say the last one. If that faceless, cowled figure showed me a future where nobody in the world mourned my passing, I'd never backslide on any lessons I'd learned from the other two.

You know, there were two really touching parts of A Christmas Carol for me. One was when the second spirit opened its robe to show Scrooge the two pitiful children, and the other was when Bob came home without Tiny Tim. I don't think anybody could read this story without being moved.

It breaks my heart every time, when Bob comes home without Tiny Tim. What amazes me is the strength shown by both Bob and his wife, to be so brave in the face of their loss.

Last night my nephew (22 months old) sat with me and watched the 1938 version of the movie with Reginald Owen as Scrooge and Gene Lockhart as Bob Crachit. (I am still amazed at how long the kid actually sat there, but he was all into it! He only sat still for about half an hour of it, but for his age, that is amazing.)

It was interesting how the dialogue and storyline so close to the book. In all other versions I have seen, the dialogue and story follow the book most of the time, but there is alot added, where this version was almost the same as the book. Of course, the running time for this version is 69 minutes, where the others are longer, so they have to come up with more for the people to say and do.