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#166085 - Tue Apr 01 2003 08:33 AM Is Yiddish a dying language?
flem-ish Offline
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In a recent issue of a local paper I read that Yiddish has so many German words because it was the language of medieval Jews in Germany who moved east because of persecution.
The paper says that though it is still popular in Jewish communities such as the Antwerp one, it has globally lost its
function and is now becoming a mere object of "nostalgia" such as klezmer music.
As experience has taught me never to trust any newspaper for more than the value of its paper, I wonder if this statement is more or less correct, and whether it also applies to the Jewish communities outside Europe.
And what is its status in Israël ?

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#166086 - Tue Apr 01 2003 11:46 AM Re: Is Yiddish a dying language?
snm Offline
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In Israel the situation can be summed up thus: some really old people can speak it, and some of the more reclusive ultra-Orthodox communities use it as a day to day language.

Seven of my eight great-grandparents spoke Yiddish (the eighth wasn't East-European), but they were actually born in Eastern Europe (six in Lithuania and one in either Russia or Poland, depending on where the border happened to run that particular year). Two of my grandparents can speak a small amount of Yiddish (the other two I'm not sure about). My parents know a few words and phrases that they use in everyday language, and I'm the same, although I learned most of these from my Grandpa and Bobba (Yiddish for grandmother- that's what we call her) and not from my parents. That's the situation throughout most of the South-African Jewish community.
Perhaps a certain "alter-Kuker" can give you the American perspective.

(And as for Klezmer music, all I can say is this: oy-vey).
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#166087 - Tue Apr 01 2003 01:02 PM Re: Is Yiddish a dying language?
Coolupway Offline
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The late Isaac Bashevis Singer, who wrote in Yiddish, won the Nobel Prize in literature in 1978. His works have been extensively translated and a few have been filmed.

Most of us on this side of the pond know Yiddish as the language of our grandparents, though obviously much of it has filtered into the American idiom... "shmuck", "shlemiel",
"mensch", "ganef", "momzer", ad infinitum. The language was derived from an earlier form of German and as a result I can understand German-language films a good deal better than I can French, even though I never formally learned Yiddish and did have three years of French in hochschule...er, high school.

Yiddish is very much alive and well in the religious communities of Brooklyn, NY (Williamsburg, Boro park, Crown Heights), as well as in the many orthodox Jewish communities of New York's suburban Rockland and Orange Counties. It is also still alive in the movies, as Hollywood (known to some anti-Semites as 'Hollywitz') is not exactly judenrein . I think of the great scene in "My Favorite Year" where Brooklynite Lou Jacobi asks the ultra-Brit Errol Flynn character (Peter O'Toole), "did you schtup her??", and also of a hilarious bit in "Top Secret" where the waiter in a German dining room, ostensibly greeting his patrons in formal Detusch, is actually addressing them with the (in)famous Yiddish phrase "Gey kocken offen yam", which means to perform an excretory function upon the ocean.

It's still alive and kicking... weakened a bit, perhaps, by assimilation, but extant as we speak.

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#166088 - Tue Apr 01 2003 01:26 PM Re: Is Yiddish a dying language?
Lanni Offline
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It is spoken in Sullivan County, New York as well.

In the Kiryas Joel area in Orange County, New York, Yiddish is, at least from this outsider's point of view, much more prominent than in the areas in Brooklyn mentioned above.

While in Brooklyn it is more of another language in the Jewish neighborhoods, it seems like it is pretty much the primary language in the Kiryas Joel area.

That leaves me with little fear that Yiddish doesn't have at least a little more kick in it to keep it going.

Kiryas Joel is just a little community though.

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#166089 - Tue Apr 01 2003 01:54 PM Re: Is Yiddish a dying language?
izzi Offline
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Quote:

Most of us on this side of the pond know Yiddish as the language of our grandparents, though obviously much of it has filtered into the American idiom... "shmuck", "shlemiel",
"mensch", "ganef", "momzer", ad infinitum.




I'm sorry Cool, I find that last one a tad difficult to swallow!!
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#166090 - Tue Apr 01 2003 01:56 PM Re: Is Yiddish a dying language?
sue943 Offline
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I am glad that I am not the only one who thought that was latin!
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#166091 - Tue Apr 01 2003 02:17 PM Re: Is Yiddish a dying language?
snm Offline
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Actually the last two (ganef & mamzer) have their roots in Hebrew rather than in German.
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#166092 - Tue Apr 01 2003 02:19 PM Re: Is Yiddish a dying language?
Coolupway Offline
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I plead nolo contendere to the charge of aggravated use of multiple ostensibly disappearing tongues. After all, apart from the nature of my present employment, I did go to St. John's University Law School.. res ipsa loquitur! Lawyers not only get to sling around a fair bit of Latin, they even make jokes about it. Hence, I give you MOST of a famous lawyer limerick. You can fill in the blank as you wish.

There once was a lawyer named Rex
Whose----- was quite small for his sex
Arraigned for exposure
He said with composure
"De minimis non curat lex"

(Look it up!)

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#166093 - Tue Apr 01 2003 02:40 PM Re: Is Yiddish a dying language?
izzi Offline
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A small dictum sent to try us eh!?!

Quote:

You can fill in the blank as you wish.





I wasn't quite sure what to wish for!!
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#166094 - Tue Apr 01 2003 03:19 PM Re: Is Yiddish a dying language?
sue943 Offline
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You prefer the cheese board rather than the desserts? I used to enjoy a nice trifle with plenty of jelly and fruit.
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#166095 - Tue Apr 01 2003 04:03 PM Re: Is Yiddish a dying language?
flem-ish Offline
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I checked some words in a list from www.bergen.org/AAST/Yiddish/English/comwor.html and found that it was only a minority which I could identify as related to German (and...indirectly to Flemish...)
handl (bargain) as in Dutch handel drijven to do business
ongepatsht ( a little too much) ongepast (not exact)
shiker from German Zecher (somebody who likes to drink)
zay gezundt from German sei Gesund (literally be healthy; now:bless you)
plats: burst from German platschen (make a sound like something that bursts)
glik : happiness (German Glück)
mishmash (compare Flemish mikmak) hodgepodge, "mix"
tsibele: onion German Zwiebel
gelt: money cp. German and Dutch Geld
shlep: drag as in Flemish/Dutch slepen and German schleppen
gey shlofn: to to sleep German schlafen gehen Dutch/Flemish slapen gaan
But most other words in that list were completely untransparent to me. Examples:
kakameyne for crazy
pupik belly button
mishpokhe for family
I also found lists with expressions : www.koshernosh.com/yiddish.htm and www.ariga.com/yiddish.shml#farshtopt
To my surprise I noticed that the study of Yiddish seems to be treated as a subpart of the study of German, e.g. in Lockwood, W.B. "An Informal History of the German Language", with Chapters on Dutch and Afrikaans, Frisian and Yiddish (1965).
Wasn't there a famous song "Bei mir bist du sheyn" ?? Or did I misunderstand the text??
Anyway...cannot help mentioning that the rhythm of the language sounded very much like some forms of .. Flemish dialect.
Remember seeing a performance of " Teibele and Her Demon" or something like that based on a story by Singer, and was intrigued by the very special type of irony. There was some hectic ritual dancing in the play too.
Most of my fellow-students did not enjoy too much because of the many terms referring to some Jewish kinds of rituals but as I had visited the Jewish museum in London already I was not too baffled by that aspect.
An Israeli friend of mine did NOT speak the language at all, but she was of North-East-African origin so that may be why. Her view was that Yiddish and kletzmer music gave an outdated "image" of the Jewish community and that non- Jews taking an interest in the Jewish way of life should learn Hebrew.
Which I tried to do, but gave up rather soon as I was unable to adapt to the letter-symbols.
So I still am wondering if it might be worth while to try to pick up some more knowledge of Yiddish, may be just enough to read short texts and poetry.
Any Internetsite where I might find 'easy' Yiddish texts ,
preferably songs ????

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#166096 - Tue Apr 01 2003 04:22 PM Re: Is Yiddish a dying language?
snm Offline
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Pupik & Mishpokhe are from Hebrew.

Quote:

Wasn't there a famous song "Bei mir bist du sheyn" ??




My Bobba & Grandpa and my Bobba's sisters all love that song! My Grandpa in particular is always singing it:
"Bei mir bist du sheyn
Please let me explain
Bei mir bist du sheyn
means that you're grand.
Bei mir bist du sheyn
I will explain again
It means you're the fairest in the land.
I could say Bella Bella
Or even ????
But..."

That's as much as I remember. Maybe when they come to Israel next week I'll get the rest of the words.

Here's another Yiddish song:
"Pach pach kichelach
Daddy keiffen shichelach
Mummy zaken zeikalach
Sei n' gesund ina bekalach!"
(I can't vouch for the spelling of a single word).

It translates roughly as :
"Clap your hands little child
Daddy is buying you shoes
Mommy is knitting you socks
Good health in the little cheeks!"

Not exactly a prime example of great Yiddish poetry!
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#166097 - Tue Apr 01 2003 04:27 PM Re: Is Yiddish a dying language?
Coolupway Offline
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Leo Rosten has a wonderful book out called "The Joys of Yiddish", which although rather thick is a fun read if you like languages. I believe it was recently revised.

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#166098 - Tue Apr 01 2003 04:33 PM Re: Is Yiddish a dying language?
TabbyTom Offline
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This site seems to have a fair selection of Yiddish lyrics with English translations. I don't know whether they're well known to Yiddish speakers.

As a Gentile with some knowledge of German, I also find the vocabulary of Yiddish confusing. I think that the grammar and a lot of the vocabulary is German. But, since it's spoken in Eastern Europe by people whose liturgical language is Hebrew, it has a considerable admixture of Slavonic and Hebrew words as well.
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#166099 - Tue Apr 01 2003 04:57 PM Re: Is Yiddish a dying language?
snm Offline
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It's a bit confusing. The ancient Jews spoke Hebrew, then they were exiled to Europe and gradually started to speak Yiddish (which is mainly a mixture of German and Hebrew) and Hebrew was buried for a couple of millenia, and then when Hebrew was revived (around 1900) some of the German Yiddish words found their way into modern Hebrew.

According to the link Tom provided, it would seem that the words to the song I posted are actually:
Quote:

Patchy patchy kikhelekh
Zaydie v'kayfn shikhelekh
Bubie v'kayfn zekhlekh
A gezunt un (child's name)'s bekhlekh!



Although this is a slightly different version, since it speaks of Zaydie and Bubie (Grandpa & Grandma) rather than Father & Mother. Plus I don't remember ever inserting anyone's name- it wouldn't fit in with the music. The song is accompanied with rhythmic hand-clapping, and the word "bekhlekh" at the end is accompanied by hitting your cheeks three times with both hands.
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#166100 - Wed Apr 02 2003 06:12 AM Re: Is Yiddish a dying language?
flem-ish Offline
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This is a line from a song by Jacqui Süsshold, an Antwerp diamond merchant AND singer:
Jiddisj iz doch azoi shaan, Jiddisj hot doch toiznt taam'n.
Can any one tell me what the last word means?
A few more Yiddish quotes from same source:
In di jiddisj historie iz der weg tswisjn krank zain oen stjarbn zeer lang.
Twisjn jidn iz men kejnmol nit farloirn.
Naie nestn, naie feie feigl weln naie lider zingen.
A sjprach iz a dialekt wos hot an armej oen a flot.
Is the orthography of these quotes "universally accepted" for Yiddish, or can Yiddish be spelled in more than one way ????

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#166101 - Wed Apr 02 2003 06:36 AM Re: Is Yiddish a dying language?
TabbyTom Offline
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I used to have a copy of the Leo Rosten book mentioned by Coolupway, but it fell apart a long time ago. I seem to remember that there were several variant spellings for many words. Originally, I believe it was often written in Hebrew characters.

I've heard the saying "A language is a dialect that has an army and a navy" in English: I never realized that it had Yiddish origins.


Edited by TabbyTom (Wed Apr 02 2003 06:38 AM)
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#166102 - Wed Apr 02 2003 08:23 AM Re: Is Yiddish a dying language?
flem-ish Offline
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The journalist who interviewed Mr. Süssholz probably mistook
the Yiddish version of this quote for a Yiddish saying.
Me too I had heard the quote in English already.
The journalist was British though: Joseph Pearce. Article dates back to end of February. From Flemish quality-paper "De Standaard".

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#166103 - Wed Apr 02 2003 09:33 AM Re: Is Yiddish a dying language?
Coolupway Offline
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#166104 - Wed Apr 02 2003 01:16 PM Re: Is Yiddish a dying language?
flem-ish Offline
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Do you mean the WEEKLY Standard ?

The paper I refer to is,at least locally,"the standard" on a daily basis.

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#166105 - Thu Apr 03 2003 08:13 AM Re: Is Yiddish a dying language?
Exit10 Offline


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In response to the title of the thread I think perhaps that both snm and lanni have covered the situation perfectly.

Quote:

In Israel the situation can be summed up thus: some really old people can speak it, and some of the more reclusive ultra-Orthodox communities use it as a day to day language.




Quote:

While in Brooklyn it is more of another language in the Jewish neighborhoods, it seems like it is pretty much the primary language in the Kiryas Joel area.




It is one thing to have common words, phrases, songs etc. used in conjunction with other languages, however it is a different matter entirely to using a (spoken) language as the only type of verbal communication within a population.

I can only speak for Australian languages but over the last 200 years the number of languages has halved to approximately 100 and it is highly likely that only 20 percent will be sustained and remain in regular day-to-day use. Of the other 80 percent there are some languages that perhaps have only 3 or 4 native speakers left. The speakers are all older people. Attempts are being made to revive these languages but in many cases it is too late.
This represents a great and irreplaceable loss to Australia's Indigenous culture.

Yiddish runs the real risk of this happening as well. It needs to be spoken, written and recorded to be preserved. More importantly it is a cultural issue, not just a language issue. They cannot really be separated. Knowing one's language assists in knowing one's culture.

I guess the message that I am trying to convey is that all languages need to be preserved and as the Warlpiri women of Central Australia say, 'It's for the kids and grandkids so they know our language and culture.'

Is Yiddish a dying language? The words and phrases exist but what about the language usage itself?

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#166106 - Thu Apr 03 2003 10:04 AM Re: Is Yiddish a dying language?
snm Offline
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Quote:

Yiddish runs the real risk of this happening as well. It needs to be spoken, written and recorded to be preserved. More importantly it is a cultural issue, not just a language issue. They cannot really be separated. Knowing one's language assists in knowing one's culture.





This is true of most languages, but in the case of Yiddish the situation is slightly different. The decline of Yiddish went more or less hand-in-hand with the revival of Hebrew.

Hebrew was a dormant language for almost two-thousand years, used only in prayers and, to a certain extent, in poetry (particularly in what is referred to as "The Golden Age", the Jewish community in Moorish Spain). Using Hebrew for non-religious purposes was actually considered sacrilege.

Hebrew was revived around the end of the nineteenth century mostly due to the efforts of one man, Eliezer Ben-Yehuda. Modern Hebrew (which is far more similar to Biblical Hebrew than modern-day English is to even eighteenth century English) became the day to day language of the Jewish immigrants to Israel, and later of most of the indigenous Jewish communities as well. At the same time, among East-European Jews who immigrated to countries other than Israel (America, South-Africa et cetera) Yiddish was being replaced in day-to-day life by the indigenous languages of those countries. Today Yiddish is seen by many people as "the language of the diaspora" (meaning the period of time during which almost all of the world's Jewish population was living in the diaspora, rather than the people who are living in the diaspora today). In hindsight it is perceived by some people as almost a "standby language", something that was to be spoken until such a time as all Jews could return to Israel and speak Hebrew again.

So, while the Yiddish language may one day die out, Yiddish culture is in no such danger, because Yiddish culture is Jewish culture. And Jewish culture has shown time and again that it has amazing powers of endurance.
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#166107 - Fri Apr 04 2003 10:17 AM Re: Is Yiddish a dying language?
flem-ish Offline
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www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=YDD describes Western Yiddish as dying out, Eastern Yiddish as alive and kicking.
Also http://cougar.ucdavis.edu/nas/terralin/endlangs.html lists organisations and institutes dealing with "linguistic diversification".
Another important Yiddish author seems to be Mendele Mojcher Sforim aka Sjolom Jankev Abramowitz, a Lithuanian who died in 1917.
And there must be some "Mendele the Bookseller" who earned himself the epithet " the Granddad of Yiddish Literature".
In the "Jesode Hatora Beth Jacob" in Lange Van Ruusbroecstraat, Antwerp there is a school for children of orthodox Jewish people which has no fewer than 1100 day-students and 400 students taking evening-courses all studying Yiddish.
Yiddish seems to be studied at many European Universities, though only by small groups of students.
In spite of all that interest Jacqui Süssholz claims that
Yiddish is a dying language because it is used "functionally" only by the religious orthodox groups of Jews. Other groups
only use it as a " relic from the past".
Louis Davids, the editor-in-chief of the Belgian-Israëlite Weekly describes the Belgian situation as follows:
" Approximately half of the 20,000 Jewish people in Belgium speak Yiddish exclusively. Most of them are chassidim. The other half keeps alternating between Dutch, Yiddish, French, German and English."
(In Antwerp "Dutch" will probably be the local "Flemish" variant of the language.)
Because of an increasing number of mixed marriages between Antwerp Jewish people and American, French Jewish people, the need to speak English or French is bigger than the need to speak Yiddish.
In Louis Davids' opinion people still talk the language, but they don't read or write it anymore.
"In the past that was different. In the diamond business merchants talked Yiddish to each other, and even non-Jewish Flemings joined in.
Because nowadays the business is mostly in the hands of Indians, English has become the main tool of communication.
As Yiddish is a warm and intimate language, it somehow expresses a certain nostalgia of the past, a nostalgia of a lost Jewish culture and history."
Louis Davids who has kept his weekly paper alive for nearly fifty years ( without getting any state subsidies )agrees that Jewish people should learn "Dutch" ("Flemish"). But they should only "integrate", not "assimilate".

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#166108 - Fri Apr 04 2003 12:27 PM Re: Is Yiddish a dying language?
snm Offline
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Quote:

Another important Yiddish author seems to be Mendele Mojcher Sforim aka Sjolom Jankev Abramowitz, a Lithuanian who died in 1917.
And there must be some "Mendele the Bookseller" who earned himself the epithet " the Granddad of Yiddish Literature".





Mendele Mojcher Sforim is "Mendele the Bookseller". "Mocher" is Hebrew for "seller of", and "sfarim" is Hebrew for "books".
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#166109 - Fri Apr 04 2003 02:36 PM Re: Is Yiddish a dying language?
Coolupway Offline
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Let us also not forget Sholem Aleichem (Solomon Rabinovitz), creator of "Tevye" of "Fiddler on the Roof" fame.

I should also note that Yiddish classes for adults are still being given and attended all over the US. My dad, long retired at age 77, attends one at a local Jewish Center, and has regained much of the Yiddish that he learned from his parents (emigrees from the Ukraine and Lithuania) in his youth.

There are also a number of famous Yiddish jokes, one of which is capable of being related here.

A man arrives in NY from Eastern Europe in the early 20th century. He goes to join the local temple, and is asked his name.

'Shane Ferguson", he says.

"Sir", the rabbi tells him, "that does not sound like a Jewish name. How did you get a name like that?"

"It's simple. When I got off the boat at Ellis Island, I was in a state of shock. The man asked me my name, and I was so lost it popped right out of my head. So I just said to him, "shoin fergessen!" *

*meaning "forgetting already!"

There is also a perfectly hilarious routine by Robert Klein about suffering through Borscht Belt comics who set up terrific jokes, only to leave Klein nonplussed when they delivered the punchline in incomprehensible Yiddish.

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