#182037 - Fri Jul 11 2003 03:45 PM
Re: Things Fall Apart, July Book Club
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Multiloquent
Registered: Sun Dec 02 2001
Posts: 2224
Loc: North Carolina USA
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Ren, I must tell you that I got so interested in "Things Fall Apart" that I read it straight through in just a few days.  Ren brings up a good point, too, that the killing must have been a unusual thing, as the boy had lived three years with Okonkwo's family. Why the Oracle called for his death at that particular time, I do not think we are ever told. It was ordered, and it was carried out. Also, I really appreciate the links that have been added here to help us with reading this book. I can certainly see why it is a book that could be read multiple times without really fully understanding and discussing everything that is going on. Don't you think the glossary of Ibo words and phrases at the end of the book is helpful in reading?
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#182038 - Fri Jul 11 2003 05:47 PM
Re: Things Fall Apart, July Book Club
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Mainstay
Registered: Thu Sep 05 2002
Posts: 527
Loc: Philadelphia Pennsylvania USA
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wow a true plethoria of ideas. This is wonderful. I read over the posts made during the day so I can ponder them as I do my work. The twin reference puzzled me because there are so many instances that indicate the birth of twins being a cause for joy, that for this one to single it out as a curse threw me for a loop. I did a quick Google search on "birth of twins superstitions" and one site mentioned that with the birth of twins both could grow up to kill the parents. Odd, but interesting. I still haven't found a specific reference as to why it was thought to be such bad luck or evil. The death of Ikemefuna struck me as seemingly irrelevant at this point. He had lived there for 3 years, Okonkwo had grown fond of him, and the deeping bond with Nwoye had almost made Ike seem a crucial part of this family unit. His death after so long just helpd to affirm how much Okonkwo wanted to prove his "masculinity", and that it supercedes any sign of weakness including not going to this horrific event. I am going to definitely have to set aside time to re-read this portion especially with all the different thoughts that he was a sacrifice of thanks. Had Ike not been there would there have been a need for a sacrifice? or was his being there convenient in that they would not have had to sacrifice one of their own? Would Okonkwo had offered up Nwoye if such a human sacrifice were needed? Wouldn't yams ( a huge amount  ) suffice? Sorry, these were all thoughts floating in my head. Here is a quote I found on www.pinkmonkey.com concerning the death of twins: "Another seemingly heartless behavior is the custom of disowning twin children and leaving them to die. Twins were seen as unnatural products of some crime or evil deed, and so had to be disposed of in order to ward off more evil coming to the family. Here religion and superstition are equated and seen as inflexible, inhumane, and irrational, a critique that will be further elaborated on..." Chapter 9 illustrated to me the importance the Igbo society placed on women having children. Ekwefis inability to successful produce children was demonstrated in the names of the children, " Death, I implore you' etc. I couldn't even begin to fathom what she had to endure. 9 children never living past a few years of age, while she sees Okonkwo's other wives having numerous children especially boys. For a society that prizes child-bearing she may have been looked upon with pity. Chapter 10 also illustrates how little power that women had even over their own bodies in the Igbo tribe. The woman whose husband repeatedly beats her is only economically inconvenienced and she has absolutely no say in the course of the hearing, just has to stoically stay put and endure all that is handed down. Back to read a bit more. 
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#182039 - Sat Jul 12 2003 02:46 AM
Re: Things Fall Apart, July Book Club
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Multiloquent
Registered: Sat Jun 15 2002
Posts: 2214
Loc: the amusement arcade of life
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Quote:
Posted by ren:
I must apologise for my 'spoiler'especially as I had ranted and raved about spoilers. I have now read the schedule properly.
I can only say I read fast and furiously to catch up and obviously overdid it.
Ren, please don't be too concerned, hopefully I also speak for everyone here in saying that I feel quite sure that your over-enthusiasm hasn't upset any of us. No doubt, now that you've experienced first hand the excitement of sharing your views, you'll probably find yourself a little more tolerant of our younger members when their exuberance understandably bubbles over for a book which has been so heavily hyped in the media, to pique their interest, and seemingly taken the world by storm.
The sincerity of your apologies both here and previously in the Book of the Month Club thread have been most gracious, and really not expected of you. Although a word or two of understanding elsewhere in our forums might go a very long way towards clearing the air and healing the noticable rift between a few of the members here at FT. But that, of course, must ultimately be a matter for your own conscience.
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#182040 - Sat Jul 12 2003 02:56 AM
Re: Things Fall Apart, July Book Club
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Multiloquent
Registered: Sat Jun 15 2002
Posts: 2214
Loc: the amusement arcade of life
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Yes, there is a great deal of conflicting information about the way twins were perceived in Africa, and actually that makes perfect sense. Africa is such a vast continent and every indigenous ethnic group has their own customs, some peoples thought of twins as outcasts while others celebrated their safe arrival into the world.
In "Things Fall Apart" we read that twins born in Igboland were quite literally cast out from society, along with their mothers, into the "evil forest".
I read an article by Rachael Ndi, a Cameroonian student of ethnoarchaeology who suggests that in some parts of Western Africa the incidence of multiple births are around 48 in every 1000. An amazingly high percentage, but it would seem to bear out the fact that twins generally weren't killed outright at birth. Their mothers most probably took them and sought refuge in neighbouring communities, where they would be welcomed.
I'll have to get back in to reply to all the other wonderful observations people have made here when I have a little more time.
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#182043 - Sat Jul 12 2003 11:47 AM
Re: Things Fall Apart, July Book Club
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Multiloquent
Registered: Sat Jun 15 2002
Posts: 2214
Loc: the amusement arcade of life
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My apologies Skylarb, if it wasn't actually mentioned in the book itself, then I've remembered reading about the custom in one of the many websites I've browsed through in an attempt to understand their ways, so as to be able to make a fair assessment of Achebe's characters based on their own standards rather than today's values. More than likely it would have been the Library of Congress cultural guide website under the heading Nigerian studies. It gives excellent insight into their heritage.
I shall be reading the second half over the rest of the weekend, but haven't yet so that topics which might arise wouldn't clould my judgement on the book so far.
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#182044 - Sun Jul 13 2003 09:59 AM
Re: Things Fall Apart, July Book Club
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Multiloquent
Registered: Sun Dec 02 2001
Posts: 2224
Loc: North Carolina USA
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Of all the Umofina beliefs that we are told about, I found the belief that a child can die and be reborn over and over again as an ogbanje the most interesting. I also felt great compassion for Okoknwo's wife, Ekwefi. Having children for her husband was supposed to be her "crowning glory" but all she had was nine children who died in infancy. Skylarb mentions the names that Ekwefi gave her children that show how she goes first from despair and then resignation. Then Ezinma is born, and finally, the cycle of the ogbanje appears broken. Do you think the difficulties leading up to Ezinma's birth is why she is so special to Okonkwo? Okonkwo keeps wishing that Ezinma had been born a boy, but I think one reason he is so fond of her is that she is not a son, and he therefore expects less from her. Not that he was not hard on all his family, children and wives, but his hand was the heaviest on his eldest son--he expected the most from him. The things that we see as Nwoye's strengths, are the things that are weaknesses to his father. I've been thinking that things really begin falling apart from the time Ike is killed, what do you think? I think of all the characters in "Things Fall Apart", I find Ekwefi and Nwoye the ones I have to care for as people the most, maybe because they seemed to have suffered the most. 
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#182045 - Sun Jul 13 2003 10:50 AM
Re: Things Fall Apart, July Book Club
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Multiloquent
Registered: Sat Jun 15 2002
Posts: 2214
Loc: the amusement arcade of life
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Quote:
ren wrote:
First , how much we are learning , without being talked down to, of the customs and traditions which govern life in the book. The simple style is such that we understand immediately why people behave as they do.
Linda wrote:
Don't you think the glossary of Ibo words and phrases at the end of the book is helpful in reading?
I do agree! Achebe manages to totally immerse us in a great many aspects of the Igbo way of life, through the various customs which surround births, marriages and deaths and also by relating the simplistic oral folklore tales, which are still so much a part of African tradition.
Achebe is such a prominent folk hero in his homeland that I wonder if stories of Okonkwo and his people are actually passed on today from parents to their children. If they are, it would be interesting to know which aspects of the book are used by the fathers to encourage heroism and strength and which by the mothers to teach wisdom.
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#182046 - Sun Jul 13 2003 10:36 PM
Re: Things Fall Apart, July Book Club
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Multiloquent
Registered: Sat Jun 15 2002
Posts: 2214
Loc: the amusement arcade of life
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Quote:
I think of all the characters in "Things Fall Apart", I find Ekwefi and Nwoye the ones I have to care for as people the most, maybe because they seemed to have suffered the most.
I'll reserve judgement on Nwoye's character for the time being, but I think most people would sympathise with Ekwefi after having lost nine of her ten children in their early years. I'm a little disturbed by Ekwefi's attitude towards her daughter though. We are told that because so many babies had died she "had become a very bitter woman".
Achebe goes on to say: ">>>At last Ezinma was born and although ailing she seemed determined to live. At first Ekwefi accepted her, as she had acceted the others - with listless resignation. But when she lived on to her fourth, fifth and sixth years, love returned once more to her mother, and, with love, anxiety. She determined to nurse her child to health, and she put all her being into it.<<<"
I know that perhaps I should sympathise even more for her as she only repressed her maternal loving feelings because she had been so hurt before. I find that a little difficult though, as it seems so unnatural for her not to cherish a child she had desperately longed for. Ezinma didn't deserve that.
To be honest the whole episode of Ezinma being an ogbanje child puzzles me. I'm really unsure as to what Achebe really wanted us to believe.
When Okonkwo sought the advice of the diviner of the Afa Oracle to determine whether or not she was and ogbanje child, Ezinma led them all a merry dance on the hunt for the birth stone, her iyi-uwa. Eventually she led them all back to the village where they had started, and amazingly enough when the medicine man dug at the spot the stone was right there where she said it would be.
Now, was Achebe implying that the superstitions were true and she really was an ogbanje trickster, or that the superstitions were false and the real trickster was the medicine man who had brought the wrapped up pebble with him all along? He insisted on doing the final part of the digging without any further help from Okonkwe, are we supposed to think that he actually found it or that he'd planted it?
Even if he did plant the pebble, producing it in front of their eyes gave Ezinma's parents, (who had implicit faith in the power of the medicine man), peace of mind and the hope that she would live, so what harm had it done?
Then we have young Nwoye witnessing the whole scene with great interest. What effect would it have on him to have seen the medicine man at work? If he noticed him palming or planting the stone it would certainly have shaken his faith, perhaps enough to question other aspects of his people's culture.
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#182048 - Mon Jul 14 2003 11:07 AM
Re: Things Fall Apart, July Book Club
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Mainstay
Registered: Thu Jan 30 2003
Posts: 631
Loc: Virginia USA
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Quote:
To be honest the whole episode of Ezinma being an ogbanje child puzzles me. I'm really unsure as to what Achebe really wanted us to believe.
When Okonkwo sought the advice of the diviner of the Afa Oracle to determine whether or not she was and ogbanje child, Ezinma led them all a merry dance on the hunt for the birth stone, her iyi-uwa. Eventually she led them all back to the village where they had started, and amazingly enough when the medicine man dug at the spot the stone was right there where she said it would be.
Well, not quite so amazingly. He digged for a long, long, long time, a deep, deep hole, and came across a stone in a rag. I'm not sure that passage was supposed to make converts of us. I hadn't even thouht of the medicine man putting it there himself, but he may have. I think more likely he discovered it, eventually, and considered it the object in question, perhaps even believed it himself. I think Achebe means this to be ambiguous (as we will see with some later scenes as well involving the Christians.)
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#182049 - Thu Jul 17 2003 07:41 PM
Re: Things Fall Apart, July Book Club
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Mainstay
Registered: Thu Sep 05 2002
Posts: 527
Loc: Philadelphia Pennsylvania USA
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So true irony would be the one person who is considered a bad shot accidentally killing a member of his own tribe with a shotgun!!
While Ikemfuna's death was incredibly tragic for me this is when the title of the book signaled a changing point for Okonkwo. Everything he had ever worked towards, especially status in his own clan was wiped out with one careless moment.
I was incredibly impressed with Obierika's compassion in worrying about the fate of Okonkwo and his mental ability to challenge a tribal belief, that of ousting a member of the tribe for an accidental offense. This to me shows the huge chasm that lies between Okonkwo and Obierika. Obierika can perceive change while Okonkwo accepts the ruling stoically.
As Okonkwo accepts his fate he does so with a lackluster attitude. He can never hope to accomplish in the 7 year exile that he had done in his village.
It was interesting to me also how the whole 'mother supreme' issue came into play. that while women were considered far inferior it was to the tribal member's mother's clan that they had to retreat to to find succor and solace for 7 years. While the man is the head of the family it is the mother that supplies the rest, energy and encouragement that will enable Okonkwo to carry on.
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'Where is human nature so weak as in the bookstore?---Henry Ward Beecher
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#182050 - Thu Jul 17 2003 11:00 PM
Re: Things Fall Apart, July Book Club
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Moderator
Registered: Thu Sep 30 1999
Posts: 12593
Loc: Kowloon Tong Hong Kong
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I don't have my copy with me, but I noticed the attitude differences between the two (Okonkwo and Obierika) when the report of the deaths of the old couple in the area came. Oberika saw strength in the fact that the old man had consulted his wife in many matters, Okonkwo saw weakness.I missed the "meaningful look" that Okonkwo gave his friend the first time I read that.
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#182051 - Fri Jul 18 2003 07:10 AM
Re: Things Fall Apart, July Book Club
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Mainstay
Registered: Thu Jan 30 2003
Posts: 631
Loc: Virginia USA
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Yes, I see a strong contrast going on here between Obierka and Okonkwo too. While Obierka is depicted as a strong man, he is also not afraid to be perceived weak (perhaps a sign of greater strength) and he is able to accept the possibility that the tradition of his clan may--possibly, just possibly--not always be 100 percent the best possible thing. There are several instances of this contrast--the two pointed out above--Obierka's view of the old man and woman and his questioning (at least internally if never openly) whether the tribe was just in banishing Okonkwo for those seven years. Then there is the part where Okonkwo accuses him of weakness for not going out for the killing of Ike., and where Obierka tells him he should not have gone, because the boy cals him father.
I'm not really sure what we are supposed to think of Oknonkow. Surely the story focuses on him and we are made to sympathize with him, but at the same time, he is not portrayed as a very admirable character.
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#182052 - Fri Jul 18 2003 03:45 PM
Re: Things Fall Apart, July Book Club
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Mainstay
Registered: Thu Sep 05 2002
Posts: 527
Loc: Philadelphia Pennsylvania USA
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The impression that I infer from both characters (Okonkwo & Obierka) is to illustrate the rigidity of following traditions despite change occuring (as in the case of Okonkwo) and being able to bend and adapt to the time and tides (illustrated deptly by Obierka). I see nothing wrong with holding fast to traditions, as I have my own silly, or not so silly ones, but there comes a time when you have to weigh and measure them with changing times. I also found it compelling how Obierka is also the bearer of bad tidings in letting Okonkwo know of the complete and total wipe-out of the clan Abame. It almost comes across as a huge exaggeration that a few white persons completely obliterate one whole tribe. It also demonstrates the importance of changes to come especially with the white man in the very near future. But that's just my two cents worth
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#182053 - Mon Jul 21 2003 07:21 AM
Re: Things Fall Apart, July Book Club
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Multiloquent
Registered: Sun Dec 02 2001
Posts: 2224
Loc: North Carolina USA
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We are told the punishment for Okonkwo's accidental killing of Ezendu's son was seven years banishment, and we know that the village of Mbaino was offered the choice of either war or sending a young boy and girl to Umuofia for the murder of Ogubuefi Udo's wife. I wonder just what Okonkwo's punishment would have been if he had inadverently killed his second wife, Ekwefi, the day he had fired his gun towards her? When Okonkwo hears the Ezeudu's name been called as the one who had died, he goes cold and remembers that the last time the old man had visited him. It was when Ezeudu came to tell Konkwo not to have any part in Ike's death as the boy called him father. I thought it so ironic that Okonkwo ended up killing Ezeudu's son, also. Obierika was a good and true friend to Okonkwo. I fully agree with sebastaincat that he was better able to adapt to the changes that came than Okonkwo was, and I think that is why we told told Okonkwo's story instead of his. There is certainly nothing wrong with holding fast to our traditions. think we all do so. In the case of the people of Umofina, they had to adapt to survive. But all change was not bad. For one thing, people who had been shunned by the village now had equal status in the new religion. Are there any other ways that the Umofina were bettered by the changes that came? What are some of the negative changes that the new religion brings to Umofina?
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#182054 - Mon Jul 21 2003 12:08 PM
Re: Things Fall Apart, July Book Club
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Multiloquent
Registered: Sat Jun 15 2002
Posts: 2214
Loc: the amusement arcade of life
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There's so much I'd like to get round to responding to, but life has been a bit hectic of late. I hope that you won't mind if I enter a cluster of posts as and when I can, and I'll make a start with Okonkwo and some of his relationships within the book.
I really don't get the impression that Okonkwo is nearly as bad as he seems to have been painted. I know that he had his faults, he was stubborn and quick tempered, but I don't feel that he should be discredited because he beat his wives and children. Ruling his family with a rod of iron was a practice which was condoned and actually admired and expected of the head of household in his day. Some of their societal rules might seem extremely harsh by today's standards, but I feel that to make a reasonable appraisal of Okonkwo's character I think it only fair to respect those rules and accept the fact that he abided by them.
I'm not so sure that there was such a huge chasm between Okonkwo and Obierika. It always seemed a little odd to me that Okonkwo would have chosen as his best friend someone whose outlook on life was outwardly so totally different to his own. I'm inclined to believe that Okonkwo spent his whole life 'wearing a mask', and that he wasn't really as hard hearted as he wanted everyone to believe.
Achebe showed us Okonkwo's 'manliness' through his harsh words and violent actions, but by using the very clever writing style as he does, he also lets us to look inside this man's mind too, quite literally allowing us to read Okonkwo's thoughts. There we find hidden the real Okonkwo who could relax his hard outer image and be himself. Just occasionally we see the suppressed, caring side of his nature through his thoughts, at the very times when he is trying to prove his strength and manhood to others.
Particularly so after the death of Ikemefuna, whatever the real reason for him to have taken part in the ritual killing of Ikemefuna, he paid for it dearly and was never the same man again afterwards. He was plagued by the mental torture of the consequences of his actions and couldn't face food for several days. I think that if he was really the harsh, unfeeling person he tried to make himself out to be then he wouldn't have suffered the deep depression he felt after Ikemefuna's death.
Various episodes show us how much he really cared for his daughter Ezinma, going out in the dead of night, (as observed by Sebastiancat), to search for her and her mother four times before he actually found them. He also rushed off to find the medicinal herbs that Ezinma needed to make her well again during one of her frequent spells of fever, probably malaria I should think.
By allowing the bitter shame he felt for his father to dominate his life it forced him into constantly striving to prove himself. He made his own life unnecessarily tough, but how much worse must he have made life for Nwoye, carrying the knowledge that no matter how he tried he could never meet his father's expectations of him.
What a difference there would have been for both Okonkwo and Nwoye if, even once, he could have dropped the hard pretence and said "well done son, I'm proud of you!". The mental barrier between them, which was so difficult for them both to overcome, would have gone and a deeper, more positive father/son relationship could have developed.
I agree with the thoughts some of you have mentioned regarding the attitudes to change amongst them. Achebe has shown us the affect that the gradual cultural changes have made on those three main characters. Okonkwo, a headstong man, dwelling in the past and fiercly opposed to the changes he could see taking place around him, Obierika is just as stong, yet he is wise, thoughtful and questions some of their beliefs. Nwoye a gentle and sensitive young man, yet has the courage to openly challenge traditions that he feels are outdated. He has the makings of a fine family man in our day and age, but what of the age he is living in? Has he got what it takes to provide for a family in his own time? I tend to think not, he is just a little too meek and mild.
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#182056 - Mon Jul 21 2003 12:33 PM
Re: Things Fall Apart, July Book Club
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Mainstay
Registered: Thu Jan 30 2003
Posts: 631
Loc: Virginia USA
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Quote:
I really don't get the impression that Okonkwo is nearly as bad as he seems to have been painted. I know that he had his faults, he was stubborn and quick tempered, but I don't feel that he should be discredited because he beat his wives and children. Ruling his family with a rod of iron was a practice which was condoned and actually admired and expected of the head of household in his day. Some of their societal rules might seem extremely harsh by today's standards, but I feel that to make a reasonable appraisal of Okonkwo's character I think it only fair to respect those rules and accept the fact that he abided by them.
Because I am not an advocate of moral and cultural relativism, I am unable to do this. I can, however, acknowledge how the author wished us to view him--and I think the author wished us to view him with pity. I think we are meant to see him as a complicated man, who has many virtues but also many weaknesses, who is driven to wrath by fear of being seen as weak, and driven to violence by fear of loosing the only thing that seems to give his life meaning--tradition and kinship. And, because Achebe is such a deft author, he does suceed in making me pity, respect, and loath Okonkwo all at once.
Speaking of moral and cultural relativism, I think I will do a separate post on that question toward the end. There are certain lines here and there that make me think Achebe is preaching it, but there are also other things that make me think he is not. I would be curious as to opinions on the matter. (But more on that later, when I have the quotes befor eme to cite...)
Quote:
I'm not so sure that there was such a huge chasm between Okonkwo and Obierika. It always seemed a little odd to me that Okonkwo would have chosen as his best friend someone whose outlook on life was outwardly so totally different to his own. I'm inclined to believe that Okonkwo spent his whole life 'wearing a mask', and that he wasn't really as hard hearted as he wanted everyone to believe.
There are many indications that he is by nature not as hard as he presents himself to be; he presents himself to be hard because he fears the appearance of weakness. Obierka is very different in that he does not fear the appearance of weakness. I think one of the greatest examples of Okonkwo's hidden tenderness is the one you mention--when he goes out after his daughter and waits with his wife. He is sure to let a "manly" interval of time pass, however, before he begins the search--he is still very concerned with appearances. I think, in the same situation, Obierka may not have bothered to wait. Both may have the same heart, but one is without the fear.
Quote:
By allowing the bitter shame he felt for his father to dominate his life it forced him into constantly striving to prove himself.
In a nut shell.
Quote:
He has the makings of a fine family man in our day and age, but what of the age he is living in? Has he got what it takes to provide for a family in his own time? I tend to think not, he is just a little too meek and mild.
In his own time among the Christians, yes. But not in his own time among his own tribe and apart from the Christian community, no. That is partly why he becomes a Christian--he does not belong and cannot well survive in his own original world. He comes to understand what he felt that first time he heard the abandoned twins crying in the darkness, when he heard, "They who sit in darkness have seen a great light..." For him, it is as though he has come out of the darkness. He was lost among his own people, and has been found.
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"Why don’t you write books people can read?"
- Nora Joyce, to her husband James
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#182057 - Mon Jul 21 2003 12:48 PM
Re: Things Fall Apart, July Book Club *DELETED*
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Multiloquent
Registered: Sat Jun 15 2002
Posts: 2214
Loc: the amusement arcade of life
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Post deleted by izzi. I'm sorry, some of the issues I raised in this post were a bit heavy and probably unsuitable for this forum.
Edited by izzi (Mon Jul 21 2003 01:40 PM)
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#182058 - Mon Jul 21 2003 12:56 PM
Re: Things Fall Apart, July Book Club
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Multiloquent
Registered: Sat Jun 15 2002
Posts: 2214
Loc: the amusement arcade of life
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We were typing together Skylarb, I agree with many of your sentiments and once we get on to the final analysis I'll have a few more thoughts on some of the subjects you raise too. You've given me plenty of food for thought, and I'll re-read a few chapters myself.
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#182059 - Tue Jul 22 2003 01:32 PM
Re: Things Fall Apart, July Book Club
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Mainstay
Registered: Thu Sep 05 2002
Posts: 527
Loc: Philadelphia Pennsylvania USA
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There are many books that I've read where the characters perform an act/s that at the time would have been culturely mainstream, but had it been done today would have resulted in censure so I too have a hard time accepting and condoning acts such as twin children abandonment and death as acceptable, or the beating of women. It would be easy to go off on a tangent, but will hold off until their is a post where we can discuss these topics as it would go into personal ethics and beliefs.
While it was mentioned that the difference between Okonkwo and Obierka is relatively slight, it is such a huge chasm for Okonkwo that he can never overcome. Having parents who I thought were less than ideal, I myself have made compensations hoping to never act like them when it comes to having children or treating my husband. I've found myself in situations with my husband that I had to seriously rethink what I would have done just because it mirrored what my parents may have done to me. For me this made Okonkwo's situation with his father a lot more real, but at the same time i felt myself mentally yelling at home to stop what heis doing. For every step he took in actually showing vulnerability (as in the case with his daughter) he takes multiple steps backwards (as with Nwoye). This makes Obierka the person who will led a more balanced life. Obierka is both able and willing to make necessary changes to continue to live, as well as show qualities about himself that Okonkwo would never be able to. Obierka seems liberated within himself, Okonwko is appears to be stagnant and dying inside. With the death of Ikemefuna I actually hoped that this would change Okonkwo quite a bit, but other than a few melancholy days he went back to the same stoicism that has guided him throughtout his life.
I find it unique also that Okonkwo and Obierka are such good friends. You generally choose and maintain friendships with persons that have some of the same basic beliefs or commonanlities. Other than being in the same tribe and having some tribal beliefs in common, I don't see how their personalities in anyway complement one another, unless it is just to illustrate the idea of what happens to a person who bends with the times, and one person who doesn't.
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'Where is human nature so weak as in the bookstore?---Henry Ward Beecher
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#182060 - Wed Jul 23 2003 01:16 AM
Re: Things Fall Apart, July Book Club
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Multiloquent
Registered: Sat Jun 15 2002
Posts: 2214
Loc: the amusement arcade of life
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Quote:
It would be easy to go off on a tangent, but will hold off until their is a post where we can discuss these topics as it would go into personal ethics and beliefs.
Skylarb and I have been chatting about this very subject via pm recently, and we are both of the opinion that this book cannot really be thoroughly discussed unless we are able to talk openly about the themes of religion and cultural practice.
We felt that the members of this book discussion group are all mature enough to discuss such matters of morality, and other ethical issues which are likely to arise, in a respectful manner, showing tolerance for each other's point of view.
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fully paid up member of paronomasiacs anonymous
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