I admire Nwoye tremendously. His childhood couldn't have been easy, and just like his father he always had to pretend to be someone he wasn't. Even then he knew that he was a great disappointment to his father, who always expected so much more of his first born son. When Ikemefuna was taken into the family and proved to be far more the boy Okonkwo would have liked his real son to be, Nwoye didn't resent him, he befriended him and looked upon him as a brother.

Ikemefuna's death must have affected him greatly but, unlike his father, he didn't dwell in the past or allow it to ruin his life. He confronted his own feelings head on by facing up to them, then put them behind him and moved on.

He might not have had the physical strength of his father, but he had the courage to open his mind to new ideas after he'd looked at his own people's customs and found them wanting. He could see that tradition alone wasn't reason enough to justify some of the practices which took place amongst his people.

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skyklarb wrote:

He (Nwoye) comes to understand what he felt that first time he heard the abandoned twins crying in the darkness, when he heard, "They who sit in darkness have seen a great light..." For him, it is as though he has come out of the darkness. He was lost among his own people, and has been found.

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You put that very well! I have to admit that I thought that as Nwoye was at quite a vulnerable stage in his life he would probably have been ready to convert to almost any religion. I hadn't fully appreciated the significance of the phrase skylarb quoted when I originally read through those words, but I can see that they might easily have struck a chord with him.

It must have taken a great deal of courage for Nwoye to stand up to his father and for what he believed in. We watch Nwoye grow from a timid boy into a well rounded young man, his newly found faith gave him inner strength and a newly found confidence.

Oh you guys are good. I read the postings earlier this morning while at work and thought about them all day. My thoughts traveled along what makes one group, religion etc right? Does might make right? Does power or prestige make right? I sincerely appreciated Sky your ability to reflect on the fact that it was knowledge that was being given to the Ibo tribe, not a set of another beliefs that they had to necessarily embrace. with that knowledge they Ibo tribe had the choice of continuing in their path knowing that what they worship wasn't quite as evil as they thought or to seek out more knowledge.

I bring up the whole right vs might issue in the thought presented with the missionaries and government presented in the book. I won't go into to much detail but I actually felt more pity for Okonkwo towards the end of the book than at any time. He was finding the proverbial rug pulled from under his feet and he really liked what his knowledge and tribe represented to him. Everything he had worked so hard towards, his work ethics and need to be a leader tossed about so carelessly. He was floundering completely. While persons like Nwoye and Obierka had the inner resources and ability to think outside the Ibo box, Okonkwo didn't and that left him stagnant and unable to accept change.

Skylarb, if you can find where you encountered the CS Lewis information I would greatly love to know.

I wonder if the death of Ike really affected Okonkwo's life very much? He was very upset for a few days, but then I think Okonkwo justified it to himself and pretty much forgot all about it--until he heard the old man's name being called as the one who was dead.

The boy Nwoye had one thing that Okonkwo denied to himself and never wanted to develope and that is empathy. Nwoye is sensitive to the sufferings of others outside his family group. We have all said and know that Okonkwo became the opposite of his own father, and it is certainly true that his son became the opposite of him.

When Okonkwo tries to rationalize how he could have had such a son, he actually begins to wonder if Nwoye is his son. Then as Okonkwo watches the fire burning down to ashes, it comes to him that he has burned so brightly that his son is as the ashes left from from Okonkwo's personal fire.

I think skylarb nailed it exactly, and her reference to C.S. Lewis was really apt. It is so true, isn't it that there are no witch hunts now simply because we don't believe in witches and so morality is not an issue? It's true that when twins were no longer believed to be evil then there was no reason to kill them.

When the missionary was allowed to build the church in the Evil Forest, the village thought that was that, and only a fool would dare risk the anger of the gods by doing so, but nothing happens. The white man doesn't drop dead--the church still stands--and the way is opened for people to come in, and come in they do. I can certainly understand why the outcasts came in--they have led miserable lives--completely shunned. But this new religion appeals to others, too, and grows and grows.

You know, I was reminded of the saying "You can't go home again" when Okonkwo moves back to his village. It was not the passing of time in the normal sense, but the great changes in the social structure of the village that causes this to be true for Okonkwo. There could be no other course for him but one that led up to what happened (which I will not bring up in case any of you have not read the last chapter or two).

Skylarb has mentioned to me that there is a sequel, or more a prequel, to Things Fall Apart. I am certainly going to check our public library and see what they have available.:o

I think Okonkwo really would have been better off staying with his mother's family. He had worked hard and prospered, but not going back was never in Okonkwo's mind. For seven years, he had planned for the day when he would come home with his beautiful daughters and strong sons and to take his place as a powerful man in the village. Life as Okonkwo had known it was so changed that no matter what he does, he can't bring it back. What do you think would have happened if Okonkwo had not been banished? I think he would encouraged a much more active, hostile resistance to the new religion and the white man's ways, but in the end, things would have changed anyway.

I think you are right that he would have encouraged more active resistance sooner. I think, however, that that would have only brought down the wrath of the British government sooner, only instead of a few men being humiliated, and entire town may have suffered.

Looks like discussion has tapered off a little...I'm just going to chime in with some thoughts here. I don't have my book in front of me and finished it over a week ago, so forgive me if I am vague in terms of names and specifics.

I hope I don't get into anything too controversial here, but it's hard to discuss this book without touching on some sensitive issues. I will aim always to discuss these in the context of the book and not stray out into external debate.

I think Achebe draws an interesting contrast between the first white missionary and the new one who replaces him. The first sought to maintain the peace and allowed a certain degree of flexibility in the religion, not demanding that all cultural practices be renounced at once but allowing for more gradual conversion, and consequently not exciting the non-Christians to wrath. The second missionary who replaced him saw his methods as a sort of accommodating, watered-downed spirituality, and took a harder line, which probably hastened the burning of the church.

This, of course, is a debate that goes on among Christians all the time—how does a Christian manage to become, as Paul said, "all things to all people that by all means I might save some," and yet at the same time not allow their own religion to morph into something it is not by incorporating influences that do not accord with its central teachings or by refusing to defend its absolutes for fear of offending others?

On the one hand, some Western Christian missionaries, I think, have considerable difficulty distinguishing between cultural and religious practices, and trouble with allowing the possibility that conversion to Christianity does not necessarily entail conversion to a western lifestyle and western mindset. On the other hand, some evangelization is carried out by such a strong compromise and accommodation that it becomes almost meaningless and such Christians might as well have joined a secular aid organization instead.

Achebe, I think, encapsulates this internal debate very impressively with the creation of his two missionary characters. It appears to me he has more sympathy for the first type, but I am also fascinated to see that he does not portray the second simply as a caricature of the fundamentalist Christian—rather, in that scene when they come to burn the church, the missionary is depicted as a man of courage and dignity.

Then we move onto the white representatives of the British government, and that is an entirely different story. Here Achebe comes the closest, I think, to giving us villains. Up until this point, I do not think he gave us a single character who could not truly arouse our sympathies, at least to some degree. The representatives of the government, however, he depicts as deceitful, as bribe takers, and as—well, frankly ignorant and arrogant (we get that powerful closing line, that Okonkwo's life might make a good paragraph in the man's book about pacifying the African tribes).

Achebe shows us two wings of colonization—the missionary and the military—and shows one with nuance and complexity and the other with a more obvious, though still artistically perpetrated, condemnation. This again encapsulates another internal debate—the one that went on in Victorian England between those who wished to conquer empire through military might and those who wished merely to open the world to missionary efforts and trade and to allow more self-rule. The missionaries and the military/government did not always see eye to eye, as it were, and the missionaries at times even saw the government as a major impediment to evangelization.

Achebe is dealing with so many things here on so many levels, and he is rarely high handed about anything; I think his novel impresses me so much and makes such a powerful impact because he doesn’t seem to be pushing an agenda or preaching a message, but merely trying to depict things as they were, and people as the complex creatures they are. Ironically, because of this honesty and understanding of human complexity, Achebe does at last resort to something close to a stereotype at the end; he hates so much the one-sided Conradesque heart of darkness portrayal of the African continent, that he makes his white government representative a narrow-minded caricature—almost. Still, even that is pretty well done.

I wonder if Okonkwo's fate would have been different if the missionary who originally built the church, and was much kinder and flexible, had not been replaced by such a stern man--one who saw everything as either black or white--good or bad, with nothing in between? Perhaps Okonkwo would have been able to better adjust, perhaps not, but I did think it very sad that the sum of Okonkwo's death amounted to a single paragraph in a book by a British officer.

Unfortunately it doesn't appear that Okonkwo's fate would have changed, unless he himself had changed many years ago. A kind missionary, a harsh missionary, a kind government official, even an officious government official would not have altered the course of self-destruction that Okonkwo was on. I think Okonkwo was given many chances and many external resources (such as his friendship to Obierka) to really reflect and try to find a path closer to the balance needed. I feel for him, for he just comes across as this wounded animal thrashing around relentlessly, and ended up having to be destroyed because he couldn't relax and alter his course.

The killing of Ike was the first major opportunity we as the reader could see that Okonkwo could have made incredible leaps and bounds in changing his personality. His choosing to go along and striking the death blow both literally and figuratively pushed him 2 steps back.

The accidental shooting death marred Okonkwo severely. Not having the one thing he wanted so very badly, that of prestige in his village, left Okonkwo reeling and without purpose. His return after exile was nowhere near as he imagined it would be thus setting him back even further.

I too found the comparisons between the missionaries and goverment officials to be amazingly stark. The goverment official came across as foppish, only interested in his book, not about the welfare of tribe, not even recognizing them as humans/people, but as viscious savages who deserved death and should be happy for the little salvation they were being offered by the missionaries. The government may have been a villain, but the real villain was Okonkwo himself. His inability to compromise, to appreciate to let down his guard did abetter job of ruining him than any government official could. Okonkwo's demise was merely an premature end to a destructive force and an example to others of the tribe. When things truly fall apart how will you act and react?

I don't know that Okonkwo was the villain--I think he was the tragic hero--and like most great tragic heroes, he had a tragic flaw; and, like many tragic heroes, he isn't even particularly likeable; yet we are made to pity him and to follow and care about his plight.

I don't think it would have made much of a difference to Okonkwo who was the main missionary; eventually he would have fought as more and more people went over to the church. But the difference is that if the first missionary had remained, Ok. may not have been able to gain much support for the burning of the church; as the first missionary would have restrained the converts from exciting the anger of the tribe. Okonkwo, though, was I think bent on preventing change.

I do think the governor (or whatever his position is) is portrayed as the villain of the novel, because of his inability to see these people as human biengs, or to consider their lives, hopes, struggles, and great tragedies as worthy of anymore than a paragraph in a book.

I don't think Okonkwo was a villian, either, but wouldn't he have been such a fine man if he had only been able to combine his industrious ways with a little of his father's even-tempered ways? But, of course, that's what the whole story is about, isn't it? He was what he was, and when things fell apart, he couldn't bend or give or adapt. I don't think it would have ultimately mattered which missionary was in the village, or if Okonkwo had not been banished. It was a clash of cultures that he could not adapt to or defeat.

Villian was a bad choice of words but at least I got a response . It seems that Okonkwo was just as destructive an element to himself as the government was in the end.

Yes, and I think there is something ironic in that comment of his fellow tribesmen--when they day it is because of the British man's government that he must be buried like a dog. Well, partly, yes, they did in a sense dirve him to suicide, but it is fellow tribesmen's custom, after all, that demands he be buried like a dog for having committed suicide; the governor would have no objection if they chose to give him a decent burial. All these little subtle twitches really keep me scratching my head.

SPOILER - Read no further if you haven't already finished the book.

As has already been said, Okonkwo's downfall came because ultimately he was totally unable to adapt to changing times. Everything he'd ever stood for was falling apart around him...his family, his clan, the whole structure of society as he knew it had begun to disintegrate. His anger and hatred finally got the better of him and in an outburst of temper he smote the court official who demanded that they disband their gathering.

I don't think that he felt any guilt or remorse for his actions, but he knew full well that he must pay for his crime and I think that he was probably fully prepared to accept that fact.

I was quite taken aback when I read that Okonkwo had committed suicide afterwards. I find it difficult to imagine the depths of despair it must take to even contemplate such a drastic course of action, let alone actually carry it out, but to do so when it goes against every belief that's ever been held seems quite unthinkable.

Did Okonkwo hang himself purely as an act of desperation though, or could it have been an act of honour? What other choices did he have? It wasn't his way to run away. Whenever he had done wrong in the past he fully accepted the punishment he knew that he deserved, and I think that possibly this was no different. He knew that the punishment for his crime would be hanging, but to allow "the white man" to put the noose around his neck would have been unimaginable for him. So for Okonkwo, suicide was the only possible route he could take.

We know that suicide is a disgrace amongst the Igbo, that hanging was a particularly shameful way to end a life, and that it was taboo for any clansman to touch a suicide victim, so unless someone outside the clan could be found to cut him down, his body would have been left there to rot.

I, too, was appalled at the callous way the Commissioner had dealt with the matter. After having witnessed the tragic scene and been asked to cut Okonkwo's body down he showed complete contempt for their ways, his only thought being how he could condense this man's life and death into a single paragraph, as that was all the space his fate was worth taking up in the book he was planning to write "The Pacification of the Primitive Tribes of the Lower Niger". It left me closing the book with mixed feelings of sadness and disgust at his attitude.

Afterwards I thought that it might have been a much more powerful ending if his son Nwoye had cut his father down from where he was hanging. Nwoye felt strongly that some of his people's customs were completely outdated, and as a newly converted Christian it would have been an ideal opportunity to show that he had forgiven his father for the ill-treatment throughout his life, and would have been a final mark of respect for his father's dignity.

Skylarb, I saw Okonkwo's suicide as an act of despair, too. I can only imagine that anyone who would take their own life would have to see no other way out. For this reason, I found the ending very moving.