#209237 - Sat Jan 24 2004 08:21 PM
Re: Do you tip?
|
Forum Champion
Registered: Mon Apr 22 2002
Posts: 5007
Loc: Western Australia
|
Back in November, there was another thread about tipping. The following is an extract from my post in that thread:
"When you think about it, is it fair that some staff get tips and others don't? For example, suppose you work in a restaurant. If you are a waiter or waitress, you get tips. But what about the people who work in the kitchen preparing the food, doing the dishes, cleaning etc. Their work is just as important in providing you with food, but do they get tips? Not in any restaurant I've ever worked in! Do they get paid well to compensate? Not in any restaurant I've ever worked in! I did work in one restaurant where all tips were placed in a large jar and at the end of the evening, they were shared out amongst all the waiters and waitresses evenly as tables were served by more than one person. This seemed to work well, until we discovered that the guys were holding out on the girls and pocketing some of their tips."
When I was in university, I started out doing the dishes in a restaurant and "graduated" to waitressing, so I've experienced both situations mentioned above.
I agree with Tielhard's comment: "I would suggest that the low wage/tipping culture in the USA has more to do with the failure to properly Unionise low paid Service Workers than the Service Charge."
And I think ladymacb's comment is the best advice I've seen: "If you really think they have gone above and beyond the call of duty and would like to tip them, tell them that you appreciate what they have done! You can also add something how in your culture, tipping is considered a sign of appreciation and you would like to tip the person. And don't force the issue if they decline."
_________________________
Don't say "I can't" ... say " I haven't learned how, yet." (Reg Bolton)
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#209238 - Sat Jan 24 2004 08:52 PM
Re: Do you tip?
|
Prolific
Registered: Mon Aug 26 2002
Posts: 1131
|
I sense we don't have many entrepreneurs here. I marvel at the assumption, blithely indulged by some here, that the economic inequality which the practice of tipping seeks to address can be made magically to disappear by simply unionizing the waitstaff and making them subject to stringent minimum-wage rules. Those restaurant owners are all a bunch of rich fat-cats, and should be made to pay a living wage, dagnab it! Food service workers of the world, unite! You have nothing to lose but your... JOBS! Does anyone have any idea of the FAILURE RATE OF NEW RESTAURANTS? In my experience, (and I have represented restaurateurs in NYC), it is, at least in this area, between 70 and 90%. This study suggests a slightly lower but still terribly daunting failure rate of about 60% for new restaurants: http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/restfail.htmMost of these places operate on a tiny profit margin. Throw unionization into the mix and perhaps the $12.00 per hour wage to which some here have referred and all you will do is kill more restaurants, most of them the offbeat ethnic or mom-and-pop operations often started up on limited capital. Only the superfranchises -- and perhaps only the strongest of THOSE-- will last. The neighborhood places will go down the tubes. And something important will be lost. I don't mind Applebee's or the Olive Garden when we have to get a quick meal into the kiddies, but given my druthers I'd give those places a wide, wide berth. Perhaps some disagree, but I'd much rather eat at Ahmed's House of Kefta Kebab than at Happy McFeelygood's Franchise Emporium of Burgers. I'm all for soaking the rich, but let's attempt properly to identify them before we start the soaking.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#209239 - Sat Jan 24 2004 09:35 PM
Re: Do you tip?
|
Moderator
Registered: Tue May 15 2001
Posts: 14384
Loc: Australia
|
Paying waiting staff a living wage seems to work in other places without it only being the superfranchises surviving.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#209240 - Sun Jan 25 2004 12:25 AM
Re: Do you tip?
|
Moderator
Registered: Wed Mar 15 2000
Posts: 16214
Loc: The Delta Quadrant
|
Clarification of two points: (1) Why aren't wait staff paid a living wage in the U.S.? How can the employer get by paying below minimum wage?
A business must have more than 20 employees before federal law kicks in requiring the minimum wage. An employee must also work 40 hours or more per week to qualify for benefits, such as medical, dental, or retirement.
Actually, it's different for restaurants. In positions where it is assumed that the worker would get 'a lot' of money from tips, the restaurant can pay them lower than minimum wage (I think they can pay half the minimum wage).
I'm not clear on the specifics, but when my three friends were waitressing this was something they beat into me so I would never become a waitress!
This is also why a lot of restaurants now add in a tip of 15% or so ('service charge') to larger groups. It's a way to ensure that with the waitress busting her butt, she won't get stiffed.
One of my friends was waitressing and had a party of about 7 people who ordered a decent amount of food, desserts, etc. So after they left, she was clearing their table and saw what looked like a $20 bill rolled up for her tip. She was surprised because her tip should have been around $10... Well, she unwrapped the bill and it turned out to be a fake with the message "Disappointed? Trust in Jesus" written on it! That was her *only* tip!
_________________________
"Without the darkness, how would we see the light?" ~ Tuvok
Editor for Television Category
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#209241 - Sun Jan 25 2004 04:03 AM
Re: Do you tip?
|
Forum Champion
Registered: Mon Apr 22 2002
Posts: 5007
Loc: Western Australia
|
Coolupway, nobody said that "the economic inequality which the practice of tipping seeks to address can be made magically to disappear by simply unionizing the waitstaff and making them subject to stringent minimum-wage rules" - but it sure would help!
I've worked in a lot of restaurants and I never saw one go broke because they paid their staff minimum wages. From what I have observed, they went broke because of poor service and/or bad food.
How do you explain the fact that Australia has one of the highest numbers of restaurants per capita in the world?
Our entrepreneurs seem to be able to run successful restaurants, pay decent wages and cope with the very strong presence of the Australian Liquor, Hospitality And Miscellaneous Workers Union as well! Their failure rate is about 60%, which compares favourably to the 70-90% you quoted.
Tips or no tips, I know which country I'd rather work in.
_________________________
Don't say "I can't" ... say " I haven't learned how, yet." (Reg Bolton)
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#209242 - Sun Jan 25 2004 04:20 AM
Re: Do you tip?
|
Mainstay
Registered: Thu Oct 24 2002
Posts: 778
Loc: Blackpool UK
|
I had no idea American entrepreneurs (isn’t that a euphemism for Gangsters?) were so bad at their jobs that they expect to bleed the lowest strata of society white to make up for their financial inadequacies (Maybe they are not Gangsters after all, perhaps they are vampyres?). Every one else can pay their Service staff a decent wage why not US employers?
"I'm all for soaking the rich," Aaaagh! I’ve found a Commie someone phone the FBI!
_________________________
Regards,
Tielhard
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#209243 - Sun Jan 25 2004 06:57 AM
Re: Do you tip?
|
Administrator
Registered: Sun Dec 19 1999
Posts: 38005
Loc: Jersey
Channel Islands
|
If the failure rate is so high why do people bother to open a new restaurant, why not research the market better and open a business people want/need? If so many fail there must be too many. OK, open a restaurant, keep the prices lower by underpaying staff and expect the customers to tip 15%, what is the difference in charging an extra 15%, paying better wages and sticking up a 'tips not necessary' notice? Prices will be exactly the same to the customer in the long run, how could that contribute to the failure of the business?
_________________________
Many a child has been spoiled because you can't spank a Grandma!
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#209244 - Sun Jan 25 2004 07:39 AM
Re: Do you tip?
|
Prolific
Registered: Mon Aug 26 2002
Posts: 1131
|
Where does one start? Let us begin with the fact that Australia has a good deal more of one particular commodity than the US does. It is a thing called ROOM. The US houses roughly 287 million Seppos, many of them quite large. Australia, a country roughly the same size as the contiguous 48 states, at last count housed about 19.5 million people, a great number of them skinny Anglicans who eat tomato sandwiches with the ends cut off. The population density of the US appears to be more than ten times higher than that of The Island Continent. The world capital of FT, Brisbane, Oz, which has greater geographical area than New York City, is home to a bit over a million people; NYC houses about 8 million, swelling (as correctly pointed out above) to roughly 12 million during working hours. Now while I have no doubt that commercial rents are high in the Central Business Districts of Syndey and Melbourne, I still suspect that taken as a whole, commercial rents in Australia are in a different and much more comfortable galaxy than those in the US. I also suspect that businesses in Oz are NOT subjected to the sort of confiscatory hidden "taxation" that many in the bigger cities in the US are, though I welcome Gtho to guide me on this point. In the big US city near which I live, a new restaurateur can expect to spend much of his time getting hit with fines from something called the Environmental Control Board if SO MUCH AS A GUM WRAPPER is seen on the (public) sidewalk in front of his (or her) establishment, and can moreover expect to spend a good deal of time and/or money either paying or fighting violations issued by the Board of Health, often for the most technical transgressions of a Health Code which makes "War and Peace" seem like a pamphlet. Add into this the fact that if you unionize the wait staff, the restaurant owner will probably end up having to subsidize health insurance to some degree for his staff. Anyone know what that costs in the US? It's now costing this entrepreneur $1517 per month for a family of four, though happily I have just located a better plan which will bring me down to a "mere" $998 per month. But of course, some will say, this is because the US does NOT HAVE SOCIALIZED HEALTH CARE. To which I say: Thank God. The Canadians call fill in the details for me there.  I poked about Google a bit to see what I could find in the way of wage regulations for Ozwaitpersons, and I came up with this: Quote:
Industrial Relations Act 1988
Federated Liquor and Allied Industries Employees Union of Australia
(C No. 36811 of 1989)
LIQUOR TRADES HOTELS (AUSTRALIAN CAPITAL TERRITORY)
CONSOLIDATED AWARD 1977(1)
(ODN C No. 00443 of 1973)
Liquor and accommodation employees Liquor and accommodation industry
JUSTICE MUNRO CANBERRA, 18 MAY 1990
CONSENT ORDER
2. By deleting subclause 7(a) and inserting the following:
(a) Subject to clause 6 of this award, employees of the classifications
hereunder specified, irrespective of age or experience, except as hereinafter
provided, (other than apprentices or employees in respect of whom a certificate
under section 123 of the Act is in force) shall be paid the wages set out
opposite such classification.
Number Classification Per week
$
Per week
$
11. Bar attendant 306.60
12. Waiter/waitress 303.60
13. Qualified waiter/waitress 324.30
Now, I don't know what waitresses make in Altus, Oklahoma. But I do know what they take home in my neck of the woods if they work 40-odd hours or so, and it DWARFS these Oz numbers. Note also that I'm in a sleepy and boring burg 30-odd miles from Manhattan. Fulltime waitstaff at a relatively popular Manhattan restaurant can make several multiples of the Oz salary WITHOUT HAVING EVEN TO DECLARE IT ALL TO UNCLE. Even assuming that the Canberra numbers have kicked up a bit in the intervening years, they are still not in the ballpark with what a waiter can earn in an analogous American city. And let's also remember that the Australian dollar (now and for quite some time worth about 77 cents American) may not go quite as far. Ladies, wanna know how much it costs to get your hair done in the US... AND IN OZ? Scary, scary comparison there!
But now on to this business of "culture".
Rootsgrrl said this:
Quote:
Run that "culture" stuff to a waitress with kids to feed and rent to pay. I'm sure she'll appreciate it.
Tielhard responded thusly:
Quote:
I find it obscene that rootsgrrl should imply that a waitress is incapable of developing class consciousness. Perhaps she was implying that being a member of the manual working class the waitress would be too stupid to appreciate her position or maybe she simply that working such long hours on inhuman wages a waitress would have no time for it. Maybe rootsgrrl simply meant that if she did appreciate the "culture stuff" she would become unemployable through blacklisting.
This spittled and somewhat LaRouchean rant plows (and waters) new ground in the ever-growing fields of Misinterpreting The Obvious and Taking Ironic Statements Perfectly Literally.
Let me put it this way. I can't pay my mortgage with Culture. If I send nothing but the works of Shakespeare to the lending institution which holds the mortgage on my property for six or so months they will file a foreclosure action against me.
Does the drift of the thing now begin to become at least somewhat apparent?
In point of fact, in some cities, most prominent among them the one in which I was raised and the one from which rootsgrrl posts, it is taken ALMOST FOR GRANTED that the youngish person serving you your victuals is almost certainly an aspiring actress, singer or dancer. They've GOT the Culture; what they need is the Money to pay the bills to support it:
Quote:
Waiting (tables)
for their big break
Restaurant work serves to pay
the bills for aspiring performers
By KATHY EHRICH
SPECIAL TO THE NEWS
Jennifer Aniston waited on tables here for a living before she got her big break and became Rachel on "Friends."
So did Geena Davis, Sandra Bullock, Jessica Lange, Amanda Peet and Kelly McGillis.
Bruce Willis and James Gandolfini paid the bills by being bartenders.
http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/story/117900p-106287c.html
Seriously... where do some of you Limeys, Ockers, Sheilahs, etc. get your ideas about how life is really conducted here in the evil dystopia of Seppoland?     
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#209246 - Sun Jan 25 2004 01:57 PM
Re: Do you tip?
|
Mainstay
Registered: Thu Oct 24 2002
Posts: 778
Loc: Blackpool UK
|
1) I thought it was bad enough that food services owners did not have to pay their staff a living wage. Now I discover that they don’t even have to cough up for Medical Insurance, that’s not just bad it is *&^%$£ outrageous! Organise!
2) "Seriously... where do some of you Limeys, Ockers, Sheilahs, etc. get your ideas about how life is really conducted here in the evil dystopia of Seppoland?"
I read what you write about it, you often write at great length. Had you forgotten?
_________________________
Regards,
Tielhard
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#209247 - Sun Jan 25 2004 08:19 PM
Re: Do you tip?
|
Forum Champion
Registered: Mon Apr 22 2002
Posts: 5007
Loc: Western Australia
|
"Seriously... where do some of you Limeys, Ockers, Sheilahs, etc. get your ideas about how life is really conducted here in the evil dystopia of Seppoland?"
From living in "Seppoland", as you so eloquently put it, for five years.
_________________________
Don't say "I can't" ... say " I haven't learned how, yet." (Reg Bolton)
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#209248 - Sun Jan 25 2004 09:13 PM
Re: Do you tip?
|
Prolific
Registered: Mon Aug 26 2002
Posts: 1131
|
Well, perhaps we can bat that around a bit.
Actually it seems to me that the real underlying issue here is one of free-market capitalism vs. welfare statism, but perhaps that's just me being portentous. Or pretentious. Or tendentious. Or sententious.
But rather than have me keep on churning out silly big words that no one (least of all me) knows the meaning of, might it be better to move this whole thing into CI? Or has the thing simply run its course, now to make its inevitable sad descent into the Commons archives?
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#209249 - Mon Jan 26 2004 06:23 AM
Re: Do you tip?
|
Mainstay
Registered: Thu Oct 24 2002
Posts: 778
Loc: Blackpool UK
|
I don’t think this thread has run its course and I would not want to see it in CI. So perhaps I could (with Linda1’s permission of course) change its tack slightly? We should try to address the relative payment issue between different nations. I would like to know in each of the five countries currently under discussion (Oz, GB, Jersey States, Netherlands and the Evil Empire … sorry, bad joke, the USA) The following info., some of which is already available should be enough for us to make a reasonable comparison of conditions:
a) Social Medicine/Dentistry yes/no if not how much does it cost for insurance.
b) State Pension yes/no.
c) Sick pay yes/no.
d) Paid holidays, if so how many?
e) Maximum working week (48 hr GB and Netherlands)
f) Minimum wage (most of this is already available)
g) Minimum salary before tax is administered
h) Tax on tips if so how much.
Can anyone contribute?
_________________________
Regards,
Tielhard
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#209250 - Mon Jan 26 2004 08:18 AM
Re: Do you tip?
|
Explorer
Registered: Tue Jun 10 2003
Posts: 92
Loc: Birmingham England
|
When abroad, rootsgrrl will presumably tip foreigners who are not expecting a gratuity, causing a variety of reactions from "how thoughtful" to "what a mug" to "where does she get off thinking she has to bribe me to do my job right". Travelling in the opposite direction I will cause a much less varied reaction by serially under-tipping - there's only so many ways of muttering "cheap ***** ". The truth is that when in Rome .. erm, what IS the tipping culture in Italy?
Tielhard's trawl for the facts may be illuminating. From reading this thread I suspect we might find (if we could allow for differing costs of living) that the actual cost to the customer in tipping and non-tipping cultures is similar. These posts offer a limited sample admittedly, but in general where tipping is less common or more modest there seems to be a fixed service charge element added to the bill and/or basic or minimum wages which are higher at least in local terms.
But which is the cause and which the effect? Is tipping particularly widespread and generous in (say) New York in reaction to abysmally low wages paid by employers (who may be unscrupulous, incompetent, hard-pressed by circumstances, or all of the above)? Or do they pay so poorly because they know that their staff can pick up significant amounts in tips?
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#209251 - Mon Jan 26 2004 09:10 AM
Re: Do you tip?
|
Explorer
Registered: Wed Mar 12 2003
Posts: 96
Loc: New York City New York USA
|
Wow; I go away for two days and return to find a hailstorm of Bronx Cheers, social posturing, and "don't try that tipping stuff around here if ya know what's good for ya, Missy!"
Hey, Tielhard, I never said that food service workers were not
culturally conscious or culturally literate. I said that a waitress with bills to pay would be ill-advised to approach her creditors with her knowledge of Oscar Wilde, the Tibetan Book Of The Dead, or the latest hemline skinny from Milan.
I would not presume to be generous to service staff in a place where that practice is frowned upon.
Again, The US has welcomed immigrants for well over a century and a half, and most come here with the understanding that it is preferable that they make their own living.
Unions have not only not been suppressed over the last 50 years, they have become very powerful. My own mother and grandmother worked a combined 65 years for a large international company whose employees found the prospect of their own unionization unnecessary, and even distasteful.
Tielhard, it's not up to you to legislate what has already been decided in the US. Our work week is 40 hours. After that, overtime kicks in. We kinda like it that way.
I am an entrepreneur (work for myself), and I am most emphatically NOT a gangster, despite the fact that my last name ends in a vowel. My government does not owe me a living.
We may be far from perfect, but at least we try. I am an American. As much as I like my articulate and enormously bright friend Cool, I will not refer to myself using Cockney rhyming slang.
The wonderful writer-actor Ricky Gervais won a much-deserved Golden Globe last night, and in his acceptance speech said, "We're from England. We used to run the world before you."
Don't try to weed my lawn, and I'll stay off yours.
_________________________
I just want to be pure--Jim Carroll
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#209252 - Mon Jan 26 2004 09:45 AM
Re: Do you tip?
|
Forum Champion
Registered: Sun Jun 16 2002
Posts: 5337
Loc: Nijmegen/Brisbane
|
Quote:
Can anyone contribute?
I'll try...
Are we talking about the situation in general, or waiters only? Anyway, I did some research (didn’t know a thing about all this until now) and this is the Dutch situation.
a) Social Medicine/Dentistry yes/no if not how much does it cost for insurance.
Not really. Insurance costs depend on your salary. If you earn less than € 32600 gross a year, you’re in the “Ziekenfonds”. (My dictionary translates this as National Health Service (UK) or Medicaid (USA), but I’m not sure about the correct translation. ) This means that your insurance contribution matches 8% of your salary (6.75% has to be paid by the employer, 1.25% by the employee, withheld from your salary). You also have to pay a nominal contribution that, depending on the insurance company, varies between € 17 and € 30.
This insurance covers admission to hospital, medicine and unlimited visits to a GP, but no dentist. Additional coverage can be obtained with a more expensive policy.
If you earn more than € 32600, you have to take out a private insurance, that on average will cost you € 182.28 a month for a basic coverage.
b) State Pension yes/no.
Anybody who has lived and worked in the Netherlands from age 15 until age 65 will get a state pension. If you’ve worked/lived abroad, you’ll get a smaller percentage of the pension.
If you’ve worked 40 years in a row, you’ll get 70% of your last earned salary in addition to the state pension.
Code:
Single € 921.28 £ 634.58 US$ 1160.59 AU$ 1496.01
Single parent € 1141.28 £ 786.10 US$ 1437.61 AU$ 1853.25
Married (partner 65+) € 631.76 £ 435.14 US$ 795.79 AU$ 1025.88
Married (partner 65-) € 1263.52 £ 870.29 US$ 1591.59 AU$ 2051.23
c) Sick pay yes/no.
Yes, if you get ill, your employer has to pay you 70% of your salary, for 52 weeks. This is thought to stimulate the employer in working together with the employee to get him/her back to work as soon as possible.
d) Paid holidays, if so how many?
Yes, legal minimum is 4 times the number of worked days per week. So if you work 5 days a week, you get 20 days per year.
e) Maximum working week (48 hr GB and Netherlands)
48 hours average quarterly
f) Minimum wage (most of this is already available)
g) Minimum salary before tax is administered
I’m not sure about the difference between these two…
If you’re 23 or older, the minimum salary/wage () is € 1264,80 a month. The minimum per hour depends on the number of hours per week that is standard for your job. If you work 38 hours a week, it would come down to € 7.68 an hour, as I mentioned earlier in this thread.
In addition to this, every employee is entitled to a holiday allowance, legal minimum 8% of the salary.
h) Tax on tips if so how much.
Tips are to be declared. They’re seen as part of your regular salary and are taxed the same way.
Taxes are as follows:
You pay 1% tax over your income up to € 16265. Everything above that, but below € 29543 is taxed 7.95%. Everything above that, but below € 50652 has a 42% tax. Finally, everything above that is taxed 52%.
_________________________
The cost of living has not affected its popularity - Loesje
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#209253 - Mon Jan 26 2004 10:10 AM
Re: Do you tip?
|
Moderator
Registered: Mon Dec 03 2001
Posts: 20912
Loc: Sydney
NSW Australia
|
Tiel, some of these answers are very variable, but here goes, with an answer from Australia.
a) Social Medicine/Dentistry yes/no if not how much does it cost for insurance.
Not usually paid for, unless you are an executive. Basic hospital/medical/ambulance/extras cover is about A$120 per month. VERY expensive. The public system, Medicare, is falling apart.
b) State Pension yes/no.
Not State, but Federal. The trend these days is towards personal superannuation. This involves a contribution from both the employee and the employer. It gives you the ability to 'buy' your own pension, but the only funds that make any money seem to be the exclusive precincts of the politicians.
c) Sick pay yes/no.
Yes. Depends on the industry, but most jobs will give a minimum of five days per year.
d) Paid holidays, if so how many?
Usually 4 weeks per year, but again, quite variable.
e) Maximum working week (48 hr GB and Netherlands)
No real minimum, but 40 hours is a good average.
f) Minimum wage (most of this is already available)
g) Minimum salary before tax is administered
Minimum salary before tax cuts in is currently A$6000, which is chickenfeed. It steps up in various rates as per this table.
$6,001 – $20,000
17c for each $1 over $6,000
$20,001 - $50,000
$2,380 plus 30c for each $1 over $20,000
$50,001 – $60,000
$11,380 plus 42c for each $1 over $50,000
Over $60,000
$15,580 plus 47c for each $1 over $60,000
The average wage is about 40K.
h) Tax on tips if so how much
Relies on honesty. Not recognised by the taxation office, and generally not taxable.
_________________________
The key to everything is patience. You get the chicken by hatching the egg, not smashing it.
Ex-Editor, Hobbies and Sports, and Forum Moderator
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#209254 - Mon Jan 26 2004 10:36 AM
Re: Do you tip?
|
Moderator
Registered: Mon Dec 03 2001
Posts: 20912
Loc: Sydney
NSW Australia
|
Rootsgirl, your comments cannot go undefended. All you say may be correct, but please consider the fact that not all of us live in New York. Statistically, 19 out of 20 people are NOT American, and out of 6 billion people of our planet, more than a third have never even heard of New York!
It has been pointed out that the tipping policy is not even consistent in your own country, so please do not presume to preach to the rest of the world- the borders of civilisation do not stop at Los Angeles and New York. A lot of customs that you may regard as strange, are perfectly acceptable in other parts of the planet.
I have been to America (but not New York), and regard the Yanks as nice people, but your attitude is only serving to reinforce the opinion that quite a lot of non-American people have.
Can I suggest that you look beyond your own borders and standards, and join the rest of the world.. after all, this is NOT an exclusive American site. ( The Aussies will win eventually, hehe).
_________________________
The key to everything is patience. You get the chicken by hatching the egg, not smashing it.
Ex-Editor, Hobbies and Sports, and Forum Moderator
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#209255 - Mon Jan 26 2004 11:12 AM
Re: Do you tip?
|
Mainstay
Registered: Thu Oct 24 2002
Posts: 778
Loc: Blackpool UK
|
A gentle rebuttal to rootsgrrl’s latest, as I do not wish to see this thread move to CI.
1) “Hey, Tielhard, I never said that food service workers were not culturally conscious or culturally literate.”
You clearly implied it, and it was not just me that thought so was it? If that was not what you mean it is suggested that more effort be addressed to clarity within your posts.
2) “I said that a waitress with bills to pay would be ill-advised to approach her creditors with her knowledge of Oscar Wilde, the Tibetan Book Of The Dead, or the latest hemline skinny from Milan.”
All together, best panto style “Oh! no you didn’t” I feel sure I would have noticed.
3) “Tielhard, it's not up to you to legislate what has already been decided in the US.”
I was going to say “indeed not” to this somewhat trite statement and then I had a think about it. It is wrong and the arrogance behind it astounds me. If I believe that there is a great injustice or abuse of civil rights going on in the United States of America is there not an ethical obligation upon me to try and correct the situation or at least bring it to the attention of others? Both the government and the people of the USA have taken an exactly similar position to the one I am suggesting in respect of other countries where they believed that such abuses were or are taking place. Is it you position that organisations such as Amnesty have no place addressing the many and varied Civil Rights abuses occurring in the USA? Are you truly arrogant enough to believe that your society is so perfect that the rest of the world is unfit to criticise it? It is after all within my own lifetime that apartheid was the rule in many states.
4) “Our work week is 40 hours. After that, overtime kicks in.“ Thank you for your reply but this is not really the question I was asking. How many hours (including overtime) may a US waitress work before she is legally required to stop? In the Union as I noted above this is 48 hours (averaged over a quarter as Leau78 reminded me).
5) You have abused my ethnic heritage vilely . I am now about to have a huge “gran mal” seizure resulting in several weeks off work. When I recover I will be visiting my legal advisers. My language has been mistaken for Australian, gor blimey stone the crows it is quite possible I may never recover.
6) The wonderful writer-actor Ricky Gervais won a much-deserved Golden Globe last night, and in his acceptance speech said, "We're from England. We used to run the world before you."
Ricky Gervais was ever so gently taking the rise out of his hosts in his speech.
7) Like I was going to weed your lawn for you. I’m busy, I suspect you will want to pay minimum rate and I shudder to think how you treat your staff. Incidentally I don’t have a lawn I have a yard but you can come and visit it any time you like, paint the gate, clean out the gutters, trim the plant enjoy your self.
_________________________
Regards,
Tielhard
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#209256 - Mon Jan 26 2004 11:35 AM
Re: Do you tip?
|
Explorer
Registered: Wed Mar 12 2003
Posts: 96
Loc: New York City New York USA
|
Again, I guess semaphore is the only answer here.
I said I would NOT tip where it is frowned upon. Got it?
A waitress can work as long as she so desires.
No, I did not say those exact words about paying bills with culture. I assumed it would be inferred (big mistake).
What ethnic heritage?
I have no staff. I do my own gardening, along with my family. Also my own laundry,and marketing. All the housework. Always have. When I ran a temporary service some years ago, I made it a policy never to pay any of my workers minimum wage.
I understand about Ricky Gervais' statement.
A few posts ago, someone said that if a person were to receive a tip where it is generally not the custom, their reaction might be,"How dare she bribe me for doing my job?" or some such idea. A bribe is offered to encourage future behavior. Tipping upon leaving is not a bribe. I would have nothing to gain from it. It would be an expression of appreciation. It would not be offered in a place where it would be considered crude. I'll say that for at least the third time.
I am close to many people who work in food and beverage service, and know the owners of several NYC bars. They pay their staff fairly. On St. Patrick's Day, a bartender working the second shift (6p-4a) will take home about 500-700 dollars, mostly in tips. With this money, they can pay bills, get their kids' teeth fixed, go to a museum, etc. On an average night, the figure is closer to 200-250 dollars.
_________________________
I just want to be pure--Jim Carroll
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#209257 - Mon Jan 26 2004 11:45 AM
Re: Do you tip?
|
Mainstay
Registered: Thu Oct 24 2002
Posts: 778
Loc: Blackpool UK
|
Blimey O'Riely still, still you insult poor Tielhard's efnik 'erritage!
Whad I 'avta do dearie? Write like b**$ing Dick Van Dyke for the next six months?
_________________________
Regards,
Tielhard
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#209258 - Mon Jan 26 2004 12:10 PM
Re: Do you tip?
|
Moderator
Registered: Wed Mar 15 2000
Posts: 16214
Loc: The Delta Quadrant
|
On St. Patrick's Day, a bartender working the second shift (6p-4a) will take home about 500-700 dollars, mostly in tips. With this money, they can pay bills, get their kids' teeth fixed, go to a museum, etc. On an average night, the figure is closer to 200-250 dollars.
But that's in NYC in a bar. In Niagara Falls where my friends were waitresses, they averaged about $9 an hour - and they worked at a fancy restaurant. My friend in Pittsburgh (the one who got the fake $20 tip) averaged about the same. I have one friend who has been a waitress since she was 16 and as it's mainly a restaurant/bar with regulars, she makes a little bit more with tips - but nowhere near $200-$250 a night.
I'm sorry roots, but I have no idea what you doing your own housework has to do with tipping. I do my own laundry, cooking (ok, so I mainly cook via freezer and microwave), vacuuming (especially because my roommate doesn't pick up after her cat's hairballs), etc. I also go to graduate school full time and work part-time plus edit quizzes on this site (which sometimes feels like a full-time job).
As for someone who tells her creditors her knowledge of Homer or whatever, maybe she could go to an employment agency and see about getting a job teaching or something.
_________________________
"Without the darkness, how would we see the light?" ~ Tuvok
Editor for Television Category
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#209259 - Mon Jan 26 2004 12:15 PM
Re: Do you tip?
|
Administrator
Registered: Sun Dec 19 1999
Posts: 38005
Loc: Jersey
Channel Islands
|
Referring back to an earlier post.... Quote:
There are many countries where tipping is considered offensive, or at the very least not the customary thing to do.
What gets on my goat is the number of people from tipping countries who insist on this practice in these 'non-tipping' countries. Apart from anything else it is showing either an ignorance of the respective culture, or as Tiel said
Quote:
... a degrading and dehumanising practice. There are all sorts of subtexts involved. For example, as has already been pointed out it allows Service Providers to pay their staff an inadequate wage so that they have to rely on the charity of customers to make a living, inducing an intense feeling of inferiority. It also says “I am better than you Service Person because I have enough disposable income so that I can pay a surcharge on the price of the Service just to assuage my conscience over your inadequate salary”
Just because someone earns a low wage in a country where tipping is not the norm doesn't mean that you should insist on tipping.
Believe it or not in some places culture is a lot stronger than money.
To which rootsgirl replied
Quote:
Run that "culture" stuff to a waitress with kids to feed and rent to pay. I'm sure she'll appreciate it.
I am slightly confused here as to me the 'culture' referred to was nothing to do with Oscar Wilde and the like, more to so with customs in a country.
Now can we keep this on less confrontational footing, The Commons isn't intended for sparring. Thank you.
_________________________
Many a child has been spoiled because you can't spank a Grandma!
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#209260 - Mon Jan 26 2004 12:18 PM
Re: Do you tip?
|
Explorer
Registered: Wed Mar 12 2003
Posts: 96
Loc: New York City New York USA
|
I've said it many times; my figures apply to NYC.
The reason I said I take care of my home is that Tielhard said I have a staff.
Tielhard, I first heard it called "Cockney rhyming slang" was in "To Sir, With Love," way, way back. If that's insulting, it was unintentional. And didn't Dick Van Dyke maul that accent?
Ladymacb, the waitress who knows Hamlet my have had time to read, but not to get the degrees(s) required for teaching. Also, employment agencies do not handle teaching jobs. I spent 15 years in placement; I know.
This is not sparring. It's discourse. No one is coming to blows; either physical or verbal. This is how adults disagree. Our value systems are different. That is all.
And, for the sixth time(I counted), I would not tip where it was considered crude.
Edited by rootsgrrl (Mon Jan 26 2004 12:26 PM)
_________________________
I just want to be pure--Jim Carroll
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#209261 - Mon Jan 26 2004 12:36 PM
Re: Do you tip?
|
Moderator
Registered: Wed Mar 15 2000
Posts: 16214
Loc: The Delta Quadrant
|
Actually, in NY all you need is your teaching certificate in many places. To be a substitute you need a BA or an MA.
Back on the tipping thread... Last time I was at lunch with my great-grandma, grandma and my mom, we were eating at a restaurant in a mall in Canada. When it came time to leave the tip, my great-grandma said "Don't leave much - we pay our waitresses better than in the States." It was up to me to hustle my great-grandma and grandma out while my mom 'lagged behind' (to leave a better tip). My grandma's the same way - one time she said she'd take care of the tip and left a couple dollars when there were 5 of us at the meal and the bill was at least $50. My brother and I had to go ahead with grandma while my parents made the tip somewhat acceptable!
So sometimes this tipping isn't just the differences between cultures, sometimes people who give poor tips are just that - they don't really 'get' that these people aren't being paid even the minimum wage and rely on tips to make up that difference.
As for changing to a system where the workers don't have to rely on tips, some of them don't like that idea as they'd make less money than normally. Also, by being paid 'over the table' with a minimum wage, those wages would be taxed. (Sometimes people who rely on tips under-report to the IRS what they made.)
_________________________
"Without the darkness, how would we see the light?" ~ Tuvok
Editor for Television Category
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
|
Previous Topic
Index