Woman, beware. That cute Ulysses Butterfly tat on the left breast, will in time, with gravity, become a GARGOYLE!

A good point. Human skin loses its elasticity with age, and the results can be depressing to behold, if not outrightly grotesque.

In the meantime, I must implore Ms. Winona Ryder aka Susan Horowitz to leave pristine and unmarked her perfect, translucent skin. As for the question, "is it really for us to judge how others want to express themselves?" I can make the argument that the answer is an emphatic "YES", but I will hold off on the point pending input from others.

"the answer is an emphatic "YES""
Why? I'm not asking you for a job. What possible buiness is it of yours what I choose to do to my own body?

We go to art museums, and form subjective judgments about the paintings. We listen to music and many of us characterize the songs as "good" or "bad" or something else along the spectrum there. We watch plays and movies and characterize them as good, bad or indifferent. No?

If one transmogrifies one's own body into an artistic medium for the expression of values, is it wrong for observers to reach or express conclusions about the values themselves, or the quality of the art by which those values are transmitted?

I once told my mother that I wanted to get a tattoo. She said that if I got one she was getting one too. That was the end of that.*

I have a cousin who got her first piercing (nose) when she was about 16, while she was on holiday here without her parents. My parents gave her permission to get it just to [censored] off her parents. She later got a belly piercing and a tongue ring, both simply to annoy her parents, with whom she nonetheless has an excellent relationship. She's removed the tongue ring at her mother's urgent request.

The fact that soldiers here aren't allowed to have visible tattoos or piercings leads to a number of interesting phenomena:
1. Teenagers getting multiple visible tattoos and piercings in order to avoid the draft.
2. Teenagers avoiding getting visible tattoos and piercings in order to avoid having trouble with them in the army.
3. Soldiers in uniform walking around with plasters (band aids) over their eyebrows or noses to hide piercings.
4. Ex-soldiers celebrating their freedom by getting a tattoo or a piercing within days of their release date.

* This is similar to the time when I was eight years old and I asked my mother if I could try a cigarette. She gave me a puff, and I've (almost**) never been tempted to smoke.
** When you're responsible for feeding and transporting a few thousand people for two weeks things tend to get a bit stressful, especially when Major Gladis keeps yelling at you and Major Sammy keeps on trying to fondle your...

Do you think that it is a different kind of judgement than one makes about such things as clothing or hairstyle?
Speaking personally, so many people that I like are tattooed that I tend to regard a person with tattoos favourably, until I have reason to believe otherwise. On the other hand, I have had several bad experiences with clean shaven middle aged men in suits, and tend to regard them with suspicion.

An excellent point, agony. I think to a great extent all clothing, makeup and hairstyles are a form of self-expression, and indeed can be a form of artwork as well. (My mother is a talented textile artist, and some of her jackets are simply beautiful.) In my opinion, piercings and tattoos are no different than other similar forms of expression.

I'm far more likely to be distrustful of someone dressed in black pants, a white shirt, a tie and a backpack than someone with a nosering. Of course, most of the people I know with noserings aren't likely to accost me on street corners and ask me if I've found their version of God yet. I live in a college town, and the guys one should be most concerned about while downtown on a Friday are those clean-cut looking frat boys. I actually forcibly removed a very well-dressed man's hand from my sisters arm one evening, just before he tried to forcibly remove her from the bar. I've never had a single similar problem with a person with visible tattoos or piercings.

But, I've been taught not to judge a book by it's cover, and I try very hard to live up to that very important rule my parents gave me. It isn't always easy, but fortunately, you can usually smell smarmy salesmen before you see them...

When I open new threads such as these I generally know exactly where I stand on the issues raised and even though I give some thought to the opposing arguments raised I rarely find myself having to reconsider my views.

This one has really made me think things through though because, much as I hate to admit it, I find myself harbouring double standards when it comes to tattoos.

I honestly don't like to see the type of tattoos that you've all been discussing, no matter how subtle, either on men or women. Yet I am not at all repulsed by the traditional tattoos adorned by some ethnic groups, and I can't really put my finger on why.

Like agony it's a bit hard to explain why I wanted a tattoo. It's something incredibly intangible almost a need for me to be unique and know it privately and yet others have no way of knowing.
One of my first jobs in my early 20's I worked for a dot.com on the West Coast that seemed to hire all the "uniques". Different color hair, goth, piercings and chains on the face. Since this was a dot.com all human interaction was done either via phone or email. A caller never knew if they were talking to a soccer mom in khakis or a goth dungeon master with a chain from his ear to his nose.
Like Lothruin I hate to judge a book by its cover because in the big scheme of things I may be judged as well, but I personally seek out those who appear to be the underdog. Visible tattoos? I've started up conversations on the train or elevator about how many they have or why they got that. If you are reading a book on the train that I have or have been wanting to purchase I will strike up a conversation on how you are enjoying the book; or if I should pick it up. I actually have a tougher time talking to persons who seem utterly respectable on the outside (three piece suit; briefcase) but for some reason turn me off from wanting to talk to them.
When I got my tattoo at 22 it wasn't done with haste, to rebel against parents, establishment or to create havoc at work. I thought it over for 6months before I went and had it done. And I actually did give some consideration as to what body part it should go on. A nice cute chipmunk at 22 may look like an elongated mongoose 30 years later depending on where it is. My tattoo still looks like a nice tree frog so I am happy. Tattoos are the new Lays potato chip. Sometimes you can't just stop with one. I've been wanting others for some time. The only thing that prevented me was cost. My small tattoo was $50 and depending on the size, how much color is used etc can be more.
I once heard a comedian's bit where if you found out your brain surgeon had a southern accent and possibly sounded less than intelligent would you want a different one? (Imagine in a very southern twang "We're gonna take this here brain out now"). If I found out my brain surgeon or OB/GYN or lawyer or bus driver had a tattoo I don't see how the tattoo makes them less likely to perform their job. If my brain surgeon got to be where he was by finishing medical school and making the grades, I don't see how a tattoo would suddenly make him less of a doctor. I can comprehend that there are some positions where a tattoo may be frowned upon. A newscaster might not be hired if there was a huge tattoo on her face. It would detract from the message/news they are trying to convey. But if said person is trying to get a job at a loading dock; a writer; etc why would a tattoo or eyebrow piercing etc make them unqualified to perform said task?

The people posting about being mistrustful of "suits" reminded me about a villa I once shared. I was looking for a place to live and the guy that I eventually ended up sharing with seemed at the interview to be well spoken,an accountant,well read and pretty smart all round. The first evening at the villa was spent playing nintendo with a bloke whos` upper torso had 5 tattoos on it and both nipples pierced. He was still the same person I first met but had body adornments. I am also reminded of the old song by The Stranglers "Skin Deep"["better watch out for the skin deep"].....The only time I`ve ever had reason to be hesitant when dealing with people with visible tats is when they have had tears inked onto their face,this generally means "tears for years" in jail. The jail part didn`t bother me but the actual "announcement" on their face to whoever they met that they had been in jail did.

No Tattoo's and no intention of ever having one but I don't adversely judge people because they have one or because they wear body adornments (after all most women and a fair few men these days have their ears pierced)
If you met most of my childrens mates(early 20's) the first thing you see are the ear, nose, lip or tongue studs, it's common place, and accepted. (I'm glad to say that all my kids take after me - no piercings and no tattoos (if they had it wouldn't bother me but they all inherited one thing from me "I'm not doing that if it's likely to hurt" )

"I'm not doing that if it's likely to hurt"
Not bothered by tattoos or adornments, but I think the same!

You'd be surprised how little tattoos can hurt. Obviously if you are getting a tattoo where there are major nerves or in bony places, such as an ankle, those might hurt a bit more. Before I had the tattoo started, the artist did a quick "line" on the spot where it was to be done and stated this is what it would feel like and asked if I could handle it. I read a book the entire time and wasn't bothered by it. I was more bothered by the fabric of my jeans rubbing against that spot than the actual job.

Sebastioncat "How little it can hurt" is enough to put me off. The suggestion that some pain is involved (however mild) is enough to put me off!

Ok, just a link first of all to a previous discussion on a similar topic...

FT Tattoos

Secondly, a brief summary of what I have previously said in said thread:

"I have a Celtic Shield on my back, just at the base of my neck, and a black dragon on my right arm. I want to get another one soon, but I'm trying to make it so I have them about a year apart.

I didn't get either of my tatts to be an "individual". I didn't do it to be cool, to stand out in a crowd or any of that stuff. I did it for the same reason that I wear my hair the way I do, or my clothes, or anything like that. It's an expression of who I am. It's not how I view myself compared to anyone else, but who I am as a person.

If you want to get ink done because it's cool, then in my opinion, don't. If you want it because all your friends are doing it, don't. If you want it to be noticed or anything like that, don't. Tattoos last forever, and the only reason you should ever get them done is because you really want it for yourself, it should be totally independent of other people's thoughts feelings or actions.

And that's my two cents......"

And just for a progess report...I will be getting my thrid tattoo (a phoenix, on my left arm) as soon as I can get "a round tuit"

...I am not an artist, so I just did a search on the 'net for inspiration (I wanted a phoenix to counter the dragon ) and got my artist sister to help me with the fine details .

B

I have given the matter serious consideration. Probably the only thing stopping me from getting one is knowing that I would get something put on my skin that, as fashions and my own artistic tastes change, I will grow to dislike. If I were to get inked, it would be quite small and a symbol that has very proper meaning to me. The closest I have come to finding anything like this are two options: 1. the scales of justice; and 2. a question mark.

I look about at people, often around about my own age, expressing their individuality by getting the same tattoos and piercings as all their friends and other people their own age and some of it makes me shudder. There's quite a fad at the moment for large, black, flamelike shapes on the arms and funny-looking rings in the earlobes that actually stretch the lobes like Amazonian tribespeople. When that look becomes passe (as all looks do), what can they do about it other than disfiguring plastic surgery.

I think there's a big difference between the reasons that people adorn themselves. Some do it to be individual in a conformist way. Some do it because they have an image that they want to remind them of something or someone. Others do it because of traditional, cultural reasons. Others do it because it's a habit they have learned from their elders.

I'm not sure that there are right or wrong ways to go about it but I think there are probably a lot of people who don't think very hard before they do it.

I recently read an article about a tattoo artist in the US somewhere, who was of Japanese descent, and was tired of little frivolous college students coming to his shop asking for random meaningless words in Japanese characters. He was tired of the lack of thought, and tired of the fad, and tired of the inconsidertaion with which these youngsters were treating his personal heritage. He kept on tattooing Japanese characters on these people, but not the characters for what they wanted. His opinion: If they couldn't take the time to learn about his language and his culture, but just wanted some pretty Japanese character that looked nice to their friends, why should he bother using the right characters? Instead of "Princess" he wrote "Prostitute" no one was any the wiser.

For myself, I think it's justice. I don't condone the guy's actions, and I think it totally sucks that these people have rotten things written permanently on their skin. But it goes with the idea of not just getting a tattoo for the sake of fashion. (Especially if you are asking for a language to be put on your skin, you ought to have enough sense for it to have some personal meaning to you, rather than for it to be just some characters you thought were pretty.) Any tattoo should have a little more thought put into it, and it serves a person right if they go in on a whim and ask for something without proper preparation. (Not to mention my personal opinion of any girl who thinks it's cool to have "Princess" written on her in ANY language, unless she actually IS one!)

None of my tattoos have any deep personal meaning. They aren't in memory of anyone, though perhaps are in memory of something, some insubstantial feeling, a part of my life I don't want to forget.

My dragon is symbolic of me. The others have meaning to me because I designed them, and every piece of my art has some deeper meaning to me, whether I acknowledge or understand it or not.

I have never gotten a tattoo to be like my friends, and in fact was the first among my close friends to get one. I didn't do it to shock anyone, and in fact my dad didn't know until 6 months later that I had even gotten one, for all the pomp and circumstance I made out of it. (I didn't tell him, but didn't hide it.) It was for me. I'd answer Cool's question of "Why?" in another way if I could, but in the end, it isn't neccessary for me to justify it to anyone but myself, and I have no trouble there.

Good post, Melissa. It answers the question of WHY have a tattoo. I had my name (phoneticized) on my uniform name tag when I was in the Air Force stationed in Japan in 1956. It was permitted to display one's name so that the Japanese citizens had a rough pronunciation.
The Japanese tattoo artist was completely wrong to write the symbols for prostitute instead of princess. He was hired and paid to write the correct symbols... his personal feelings have nothing to do with the message requested no matter the message. If he didn't want to do it properly, he should have refused the request.
There isn't much demand for skin tattooing in Japan, anyway. The Japanese (as a culture) do not decorate their skin with tattoos.

Since it is permanent, I agree that a lot of forethought should be exercised before having one or thirty engraved.
I wouldn't want to have my wife explain to the grandkids why she had a piece of barbed wire tattooed on her arm.

To add to that, I have something to say in respect of Indian content.

Here we have a paste called 'mehendi'which you apply in your palms and wherever you like on special occassions(for mostly females). This is fine for some days, and ten it goes out. That concept is SO VERY TRENDY! Pretty similar to tattoos. No side effects too. Hope it doesn't get confused with the tattos free with chewing-gums(yuck ).

I have seen pictures of that, it's used at weddings and so on, right? It's very beautiful. If I was a young woman with lovely hands (I was, once), this is something I would love to do.

I think you might be referring to what we call "Henna," which is a type of herb that is mixed into a strong, staining pigment used for such decorations as you described. My mother got me a starter kit with some henna past and basic instructions and at some point this summer, I'm expected to have perfected my technique enough to give my mother one of these designs on her ankle.

I have read recently that black henna can be somewhat dangerous. I did a quick search and found this site.

Henna is one of the constituents of "Mehandi". But, I guess, the site is about pure Henna when applied on skin. I don't reckon it is safe for direct application.

I actually think that site makes it pretty clear that regular henna is safe. They refer to "black henna" as PPD, and I can't actually find any reference on the site that indicates black henna is actually henna of any kind. In fact, at this site:
What is Black Henna it specifies that black henna is NOT actually henna. But an excellent warning none the less.