Eurosport is giving the women's live and they said it pretty much a minute or so before I posted it. They had just heard it themselves. Apparently the are still unsure what will happen officially - it seems impossible to reaward the medals so to say and if that is not done (and it seems everyone thinks it won't be done) the Koreans are demanding an official apology because basically the guy was robbed.

You know, if I were Hamm I'd give it to the guy. I would demand that the medals be put right. What could possibly be the pleasure out of something he knows he didn't win?!

really?

that is really tough to say peg
if you were at that level and a mistake were made
wouldn't you want to keep it?

I don't know if I would be man enough to give up a gold
I mean, I didn't screw up...the judges did

no one is gonna be happy at this outcome

sounds like life...it is unfair

Yes life is unfair indeed and therein lies the problem as far as I am concirned. The Olympic Games should be different, the idea of competing in the Olympic Games carries with itself what I think should be the goal of humanity. The trouble is that the Games are losing this and fast thanks to things like this, and many, many more before this.

To answer your question and let me brutally honest - Hamm is a lousy person if he lets this go. Yes, I would give it to the man who truly deserves it because that is the Olympic spirit, the spirit of true sport. If this goes like I think it will go - that is all I need to know about that man's character. There is nothing like a test of character to tell you what a man is like and this is it for him. The facts are there - he lost. Nothing more to be said and it is up to him to make it right. And he won't do it but well as I said there are people who are true champions and there are people who get the medal but they remain where they were before - at the bottom.

Another totally honest thing - he won't give it back because it was clear, to most of us of course, right then that this was a set up. They just got cought at the stupidest possible place.

Not the first time of course (remember that ex-USSR - Romania team competition for women when the Romanians got robbed?) but it seems the Olympic spirit is dead. I just don't understand why don't they just hold an auction and then sell the medals to countries and be done with it - it would save a lot of people quite a few years and a lot of disappointments.

I'd be cautious in general claiming what is clear "to most of us of course".

I would be cautious of well of claiming a 'set up'.

Was checking Eurosport's board and saw this from someone claiming to be a professional gym. judge: "19/08/2004 - Professional Gymnastics Judge
Hamm's score on the fall could have been lower but not by much. The only flaws were on the landing which produce standard deductions. When you take those deductions from his start score you get a score slightly HIGHER than the score he recieved. I would have also taken a deduction for the overotation that resulted in the fall. My score would have been slightly lower than the score he recieved. His scores on the parallel bars may have been slightly inflated but not dramatically. His high bar routine was flawless and deserving of the score he received. As for the S. Koreans, they received slightly inflated scores on several apparatuses as well. Scoring is an inexact science and the gold and silver were basically in a dead heat. It is tough to lose by that margin but such is sport. Spare us judges the "fixed" insinuations."

Sounds like the person above has it right.

I am cautious that is why I say to most of us, certainly not all of us. As for Eurosport I am not interested in their boards which are appaling, I can say I am the queen of England and who is to say I'm not. I am interested what people who work there have to say - one, they thought the judging was wrong. Two, it happened, we are still waiting for the result of the protest but again, it won't come to anything.

You can prefer Hamm, I have no problem with it. You can be happy about his gold medal, again I have no problem with it. You can ignore what has happened and I have no problem with it because all in all neither of us matter in all this, nor will your opinion or mine, change what happened.

Oh and I won't be posting my opinions here anymore. Seems to be a problem so bye.

good points made by all

no real fix for this, is there?

judging is subjective
standard deductions are what they are

the thing with gymnastics
is that you begin with your start value
and points are taken away for every mistake
it's not like other sports
where you start with zero and go up to build your score
it's a bit weird

From eurosport.com:

Art. Gymnastics 16:17 SOUTH KOREAN APPEAL CONTINUED: Paul Hamm became the first American man to win the individual crown on Wednesday but the South Koreans believe Kim and Yang, who finished second and third respectively, were not credited with the scores they deserved.

Art. Gymnastics 16:15 The Olympic men's all-round results are being re-examined by the governing body of gymnastics after the South Koreans launched a protest over the scores of Kim Dae-eun and Yang Tae-young.

U.S.A rocks! i think U.S.A has the most medals in gymnastics. at least i hope. Paul Hamm did great!

i love watching the men's gymnastics the most. i still like watching womens too but to me men seem more interesting. i really like Blaine Wilson but sadly this is his last year. As long as someone from U.S.A wins i'll be happy.

I can't resist posting again, I feel really good right now because imagine that, we were right. Funny that isn't it?

"The International Gymnastics Federation ruled Saturday that Yang Tae-young was unfairly docked a tenth of a point in the all-around final, costing him the gold medal that ended up going to Hamm. The South Korean got the bronze instead.

The federation suspended three judges, but it said the results will not be changed in a case that brought back memories of the figure skating scandal at the Salt Lake City Games in 2002.

Although there are no signs of impropriety by the gymnastics judges, the South Koreans will now ask the Court of Arbitration for Sports to determine if Yang deserves a gold medal.

"We want obvious mistakes to be corrected," said Jae Soon-yoo, an official with the South Korean delegation."

No impropriety I am sure. Yes, it was a bad thing of me to say set up. I was totally wrong. Bad, bad me. Oh wait, did I fail to mention that the head judge was from USA? But I am sure he was fair. Yes, of course. How could I even dream that he might be anything else ... yes, yes, I better be cautios like the people above suggested ...

Peg - I don't know what the attitude is. All I was saying was that the official results is (even after this) is that Hamm won. To say anything sounds like Khorkina saying that she's the Olympic champion, ignoring the fact that Patterson won gold.

How do we know the American judge did this on purpose? How do we know this wasn't just someone screwing up the rules? Especially under such pressure as being a judg eat the Olympics, no one's infallible. I'm sure if we go around looking at every single competitor's work, we'll find other mistakes in the judging as well.

Found a good article about how judging errors happen all the time: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A22412-2004Aug21.html

You know if you do not see what the problem is then I certainly can't explain it to you. Quite surprising though because most people seem to be capable of understanding the problem with people winning gold when they do not deserve it, then on the other hand it is obvious that to some, inculding Hamm, it is of no matter how you win the gold, as long as you get it. I am forever thankful these people are still a minority.

Peg - the point is that Hamm did nothing wrong. One of the judges started his score at 9.9 when it should have been started at a 10. Personally, they should give the SK a gold as well as Hamm, but as that's not happening, I don't understand why all the hostility towards Hamm.

*These things happen.* Yeah, I think it's really bad that it means someone doesn't get the gold they deserve, but if they went back and changed all the scores, other countries would file protests and they'd have to end up re-doing the entire thing. Chances are, about half of the scores put up in gymnastics are wrong.

I think also a factor in this case is that SK didn't file the protest promptly - they filed it the next day when it was supposed to have been done earlier.

You don't see it do you? Nobility, character, morals - does that mean a thing to you?

His "the Koreans wouldn't be in the medals anyway so who cares" and "we shouldn't share the gold, I won it and that's it" interviews he gave to the press make me want to puke! That's what I have against him. It disgusts me.

Now on to "these things happen" - well yes they do. And I will say it again - I am forever thankful that there are still people out there who refuse to go with the flow and shrug their shoulders and move on. Not to mention that if the situation were reversed you'd all be screaming your lungs out. Like this - "these things happen".

He did nothing wrong, I agree. Up to the moment when he showed us just who he really is with his statements. It shows me such a poor human character that like I said he makes me sick. Nobody is asking for him to give up the gold - all he had to do, as a decent human being is get up and say - I demand that another gold be awarded - and he gets a 10.00 from the most important discipline in both the Games and life itself - being a decent human being. He would have set alight the world with that one gesture, because that should be what the Olympic spirit and the human spirit is all about. Not him though. Even if he does it now, the moment is gone because if you read the papers this morning you'll see all the journalists demanding this very thing or as this one said "it’s not going to look as gracious if you do it only after every columnist in America has beaten you over the head with the course material from Ethics 101."

Like things are right now, he will indeed walk away with the gold and the Korean keeps his bronze. Hamm will get his sponsors and ads and horde more money that he can think of probably and the Korean will get a gold medal reception when he arrives home.

What will most certainly remain because one man did not have enough moral fortitude to demand justice is the bitter taste in the mouth of the rest of the world, not to mention other wider things but I will not expand the story beyond sport.

Sad times. Or as a journalist, from the States finished a piece I read this morning:

"He had the chance for a second golden moment Sunday night.

And Hamm fell off the pommel horse"

LordAndry on a totally different note - did you watch last night? I hear people are fuming about Tempakos' win but like I said I stopped watching after the men's all around so don't know what happened.

MSNBC has a good article on this: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5784651/

Some excerpts:

"The Los Angeles Times reported that U.S. Olympic officials said they would consider supporting South Korean officials in a bid to award duplicate gold medals to Hamm and Yang."

"The International Gymnastics Federation admitted a mistake was made by suspending the two judges who determined the start values, along with the judge who oversaw the panel, George Beckstead of the United States."

So it wasn't 'just the American' judge at fault here.

"But the federation, known as FIG, said the results will not be changed because the complaint wasn’t lodged until after the meet."

"Hamm believes the problem started when FIG decided to review the videotapes of the event after the South Koreans complained. Reviewing tapes to handle protests is not allowed in international gymnastics.

"Had the South Koreans protested immediately, a scoring change could have been made. They insist they did. But American judge Henry Bjerke, who was on the parallel bars panel, said he never saw the South Koreans approach the judges’ table.

"“They waited until the medals had been given out — until after the fact,” Bjerke said. “It was a very unfortunate mistake and it happened at the worst possible time.”"

"Miles Avery, said that wasn’t the only mistake made. They looked at Yang’s routine and saw a place where he should have received a 0.2-point deduction that the judges didn’t take."

As for him being asked to give up the gold - actually, there are people who are saying he should. Another article on MSNBC (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5790612/) has the writer calling for Hamm to give it up.

The article above mentions that Hamm should call up the SK and hang his gold around the man's neck as a symbol of goodwill. Yes, I think that would be the right thing to do. But I'm not Paul Hamm - I don't know how everyone's been treating him. From what I've read in the media the past couple days, it seems like everyone keeps hounding him with their opinion of what he should/should not do. Sounds to me that the negative interviews he's given are more a by-product of this media attention and pressure/stress from all sides.

You know you just made me laugh. Ah never mind, I give up. It is quite obvious that there is a fundamental difference in the approach to this matter between you/Hamm and me and a lot of people (see I am being cautious). I really do not see the point in carrying on with this conversation when the important points are ignored by you or at least what I consider the important points so I suggest we leave it at this and the people will judge as they see fit.

Just the next time something like this happens to an American athlete I wonder if you will remember this, or will it be the usual outrage and demands for justice. And don't be surprised when the rest of the world shrugs and says hey these things happen and then in private gives a little laugh thinking serves them right.

I don't really watch much Olympics in the second week
all my favorite stuff is in the first week

I gotta get back to work and my life
last week was hellish
with the little sleep I got
I was wondering how I didn't crash my car every day
during my drive to work

so, no peg, did not see that particular competition

The opinion that the audience has of Hamm was quite obvious. They didn't stop whistling and booing when he was to start his routine. But he can't help it that the judges did something wrong.

Yes, lovely wasn't it? Deserved every single one! Too bad it seems to be beyond his ability to comprehend why this is happening.

And it seems we have another controversy with Nemov now. Or to quote the Eurosport commentator - he deserved the gold for that one and gymnastics federation needs to think about this long and hard becuase this sport is losing its meaning with this kind of judging.

Or to put it simple the booing of the crowd as the competition ended says it all.

I thought it was great of Nemov to go up to the floor and try to get the audience to shut up. Very fair of him. And his routine was great, don't understand why he got such a low score. (Wait, I do understand, but you get the idea.)

He is without a doubt one of the greatest gymnasts ever in the history of this sport and tonight he proved it by doing that. This is exactly the kind of thing that Hamm doesn't have, which is one of the resons he will only be remembered as the guy who stole the gold.

Yup, not too difficult to figure out why he got that score, nor who benefited from it ... oh yes ... pathetic!

Or to quote again, the ES commentator - "I am shaking with anger"!

He's not going to be remembered as the guy who stole the gold - does anyone remember the 'other' team that won the gold instead of the Canadians for figure skating? Nope, didn't think so.

Quote:

---

up, not too difficult to figure out why he got that score, nor who benefited from it ... oh yes ... pathetic!

---

He got the score because two judges - who *weren't* Americans wrote down the wrong start value! It just so happened that an American was over-seeing those two judges.

I have not heard a single person say this was anything more than a simple mistake. So please don't insinuate it was intentional unless you have some proof.