Alright, folks. There are a lot of you out there, and I know the probabilities are good that I'm not the only one who's had to deal with contractors and plumbers, etc. So I need some advice, because I'm ready to just start screaming at the lot of them and I know that won't do any good.

I'm remodeling my bathroom. Opting for function and low cost, we purchased a fiberglass tub/shower surround combo which was installed by the contractor. We also purchased the drywall, toilet, faucets and knobs, etc. Everything but the actual pipes and sundries like screws and tape. We made it clear to every party exactly what we were providing. *sigh*

And to top it all off, we only have the one bathroom, which we are expanding, and luckily the new fixtures are going on the opposite end of the new room to the old ones, and we've had to coordinate the plumber and contractor so that we would always have working fixtures.

The contractor installed the tub and shower surround, then the plumber came in and installed the pipes. Then the concealed-plumbing inspection was done and the contractor came BACK in and installed the drywall. That brings us up to today with relatively few setbacks. I spoke with the plumber on Thursday and again yesterday to see when he'd be able to come back and get the tub/shower and toilet functional so we could start using them and have the contractor tear out the old stuff. He assured me the plumber would be in today and that everything would be functional when we got here tonight. Well, it was. But when I spoke to him yesterday I made sure to remind him that we would be providing the faucet, wanting a certain brand name and level of quality and not wanting to be charged by the plumber for the materials. We purchased it last night and set the box IN THE TUB for the plumber to install today.

When we arrived home everything was in working order, but I admit I didn't look at it extremely closely, just turned the knobs to make sure everything worked. I set about cleaning the tub so that we could use it, and clearing the room of some of the debris left by the plumber. I went to pick up the box from the faucet only to realize it was still full. The plumber had MOVED our faucet, which he KNEW we were providing and installed one he brought with him. AND when I ran some water in the tub and cleaned away some of the still-soft plumber's putty (as opposed to the long-since dry and crusty drywall mud splotches) I noticed a 1/4 inch gouge in the bottom of the tub, all the way through the white interior coating and nearly through the fiberglass bottom of my BRAND NEW tub. After researching at the manufacturer's website, I discovered that damage of this nature must be professionally repaired, though I could see no indication of whether it was safe to use.

I know I'm ranting, and part of that is because I'm livid. This was a cost-efficient option, but still was not cheap, and I can hardly believe my brand--new bathtub is damaged so badly. Worse yet, I'm almost dead certain it was the plumber who did the damage, but I can't be absolutely sure, and of course the plumber will say the contractors did it and the contractors will say the plumber did it and I know for DARN sure I didn't do it, but I'll likely end up paying a pretty penny more just to have it fixed because neither of them is likely to own up to it if they don't have to. And I certainly feel I am justified in expecting the plumber to come back over and install the faucet and knob he was supposed to install, and that I should not have to pay for the other stuff.

Am I expecting too much? Am I over-reacting? Should I just sigh, proclaim that stuff happens and get it fixed without raising a big ruccus?

I`m trying to think of how the damage occured and can only think that someone has stood of rubble in the bathtub and caused the gouge. Was there any one person that was the only one with a reason to stand in the tub Loth? Having the correct faucet installed should go without saying, just give the contractor a call and remind him of his obligations.
I find that withholding settlement works wonders when you want trademen to fix their errors. No ruccus is needed most times, just a little financial blackmail, if that doesn`t work call the appropriate authority and ask for advice.
"Stuff" certainly happens but staying cool and somewhat aloof can save time and money.

I think, roos, it looks as if someone dropped one of their tools. All of them had reason to stand in the tub. The contractors had to stand in the tub to put the drywall up above it. The plumber had reason to stand there to put the showerhead in, at least, and possibly also to install the knob and faucet. It's just hard to say. I don't think the rubble would have caused a gouge like this. It's very deep. It looks as though a hammer or screwdriver got dropped on it.

*sigh* I just talked to the plumber, and though he knew we wanted a certain brand and that we wanted to provide the faucet, etc., he failed to tell me an important thing: when he did the rough in before the drywall was put on, he used a certain valve for the shower. Whatever brand of valve you use, you must use the same brand of faucet, knobs and showerhead. He did not tell me what brand of valve he used, nor that I would have be sure to buy the same faucet kit, and he did not ask me what brand of faucet I wanted so that he would know what to install. And now that the drywall is on, the only way to fix it is to tear the drywall out to get access to the valve, replace it, and patch the drywall back on. I'm irritated, but I guess I can live with what I got. It's not a bad brand.

I share your pain. We had a house fire about ten years ago, the house was saved, but massive renovations were needed to make it livable again. Dealing with contractors must be the single most frustrating experience on this earth. Instructions clearly given, and backed up in writing, are blithely ignored, while a distracted "Yeah, I guess" is considered to be sufficient justification for thousands of dollars of extra work.
I can't offer much advice, just sympathy. However, I'll go along with Roos - withholding payment until satisfied is a good idea, if you can do it without a lawsuit. CYA as much as possible, get things in writing, (almost impossible, these guys are very slippery) and if at all possible, it will probably save you money to take time off work and supervise in person.

Your household insurance, might they cover the cost of the bath problem? Worth contacting them especially since you cannot prove who actually did the damage. Actually the tradesmen's insurance ought to cover but how to discover the person responsible will be virtually impossible.

Quote:

---

We made it clear to every party exactly what we were providing.

---

Quote:

---

I made sure to remind him that we would be providing the faucet, wanting a certain brand name and level of quality and not wanting to be charged by the plumber for the materials.

---

You need to tell the contractor that you want a new tub and new faucet, period. If you have to sue them in small claim court, do it! There is no excuse for sloppy workmanship (scratched tub) nor excuse for not using the parts that you have provided. They are negligent and you can prove it.
The scratched tub is negligence. Any competent contractor will provide a padded surface to protect your valuable tub if he has to step into it or will knowingly drop drywall plaster into it as a result of working on something else.

It's a case of incompetence. If they are licensed and advertise themselves as professionals and carry worker's compensation insurance and comply with local building codes, they are responsible for doing the job in a workmanlike manner.

Ah yes, the joys of remodelling (or building for that matter)! When we had our home built the bathroom and the painters were the worst of everything.

The tub was scratched and the builder had it "repaired" as you stated. To this day I cannot tell where the deep scratch was. This is a Jacuzzi tub. Also they managed to gouge the regular tub in the guest bath -- same person did the repair there and still cannot tell where it was. At least the repairs were done well.

Then a couple of years ago we had the master bath redone. We did not have to move the sinks, but the glass walled shower had to be totally taken down and new everything put in. The first thing I did was call the local office of the construction association and spoke with someone there in order to get a reliable firm. Luckily I actually spoke with the President and he seemed very honest.

I wound up getting three estimates. One, the lowest, just looked at the room and said $700 (not a member of the association). For everything! Tile, shower, the works. Right away you wonder. The most expensive was $4,000. We wound up going with the middle price (about $2200) and had a wonderful construction experience. Contract in place detailing everything. We even selected the sinks for the vanities, but allowed the plumber to do the purchasing. He got them for a better price than we could.

I suppose the bottom line is that sometimes we have to pay a little more to get decent work done. That does not imply that just because you spend more you get better work. One can always wind up with inferior work done. I think the best thing we did was to call the local association to get someone who belongs to it and is then more or less accountable to his peers. What he does reflects on the group as a whole. I would not hesitate to do it again.

As an aside -- my neighbor had his guest bath done and it took over three weeks. My master bath is much larger, has a ton of tile, the glass shower, and was done in 3 days. I think I got very lucky.

Lothurin,

I worked for several years in a plumbing house as a bookkeeper and I was fortunate enough to learn a good deal about the tricks of the trade.

After reading your post, you did everything right, however, your contractor did not.

Did he put in writing all that was discussed?
I know the plumbing laws for all of the United states, as that was part of my job, because Philadelphia used to host a plumbers ball annually; and plumbers from all different states used to attend.

The only reason that I can even phantom as to why your plumber did not use the faucet that you purchased was that maybe it was not compatible with your tub/shower?

And if that were the case, then he should have placed a call to you to inform you. As I am sure you gave him contact numbers in which to reach with any questions?

And yes, he not you is responsible for any damage caused to the tub while he was installing the faucet.

I would write out a formal list of complaints about what the plumber has failed to do and see what he has to say about it. And he if does not agree, you can always contact your states local plumbing association to file charges if necessary.


--------
Agnes (JTJ)

Oh, and I forgot one all important thing..do not pay for anything to be repaired, as you did not cause the damage. And be sure to take photos as well.

Also, in every state there is a list of certified and master plumber/contractors listed on file at your city's City Hall.

Unfortunately, from working in a plumbing house, most of the plumbers do scam their customers, it is not right but it has been done and will continue to be done.

Also, I strongly suggest to anyone that is having any home remodelling done, that someone, whether it be a neighbor or an available family member remain on site while the contractors are in the house. I learned that little trick from my friend who is a registered master plumber. He always says that while there are honest contractors out there, it sure does not hurt having someone around to look out for your interests when remodelling. If the contractor objects, then don't hire them, find someone that doesn't care is someone is hanging around observing.



----------
Agnes (JTJ)

Thanks, JTJ. What we got was American Standard. What we bought was Moen. I don't know much about American Standard, but I have been told it's a good brand. According to retail website I've looked at, the accessory kit we bought is roughly the same price as the one we got. The only problem is tha AS seems to be quite a bit more expensive in general than the Moen, and we WERE going for a certain esthetic that we now cannot afford, as what we got is the very least expensive kit available by AS. I don't really know. It just upset me. As my mother said, yes stuff like this happens, and yes, what we got will work just fine and we can take back what we bought, but we did make ourselves clear and we don't really LIKE what we got. It's really just frustration more than anything.

As to the tub, the plumber hasn't said yet whether it may have been his fault. The contractor DID say that it wasn't there when it was installed, so either they or the plumber did it, and they can repair it. They did not say whether they would charge me to repair it, but I WILL fight tooth and nail about that. In order to replace it, which I really would prefer, I'd have to go without a tub/shower, because the old fixtures have been torn out. I don't really feel like going to the trouble, but I will NOT be paying ot have this fixed. I don't care what either of them says, this will not cost me a red penny.

Lothurin,

American Standard, Kohler, and Moen are very much overrated. Each claiming to be the best. American Standard fixtures (tubs) are very similar to every other fixture out there, the only difference is the subleties in design. Kohler is a high end product that looks nice, but in my honest opinion, only for show. Moen is what contractors will mainly use as, the Moen company gives terrific deals, price wise, to contrators; forgetting all about pleasing the homeowner.

From having worked in the plumbing industry, I can assure you that Delta is by far the least expensive, with some very nice fixture and faucet details; Delta is one of the very few that will stand behind their product with no hassle. I know someone that has a 25 year old Delta faucet in their kitchen, it must have broke about a dozen times, and all the family did was call Delta customer service, give them their product number, and explain what happened, and within a week they had a brand new faucet sent to them via UPS.

Grohe started out as one faucet company and split in two...Hans Grohe and Fredriech Grohe. Both extremely expenseive, but well worth the price, as the faucet is guaranteed to last a lifetime, and if for any reason you are are not satisfied, the Grohe companies send a customer service representative to your house to pick up the faucet and return your money....now that is service!

According to the plumbers association, the plumbers are suppose to give a quick education to any homeowner that is intending to remodel their bathroom/kitchen. The plumbers association believes that a well informed homeowner is their best customer.

Lothurin, you did do a good job in checking everything, and I think that that alone has stumped your plumber/contractor.

Glad to have helped and sorry for the ranting.



---------
Agnes (JTJ)

Argh! Mine is fine as is (ancient though it may be). I DID help a friend remodel his for his family. What an ordeal! We ripped the floor out and found all sorts of trouble as we went. A professional might have been better but we gave it a try. Getting someone to do it would have been quite costly so we gave it a whack. We did a good job, in the end. They have this super sonic-ish toilet going now and a bathtub planted. Did you ever try to move one of those around? Trust me, they are very heavy indeed. I'm lucky to have friends who take on this stuff. Perhaps not "pros" but they get most of it. If I called out for help to an unknown problem rest assured that I would grill them intensely. Let's hope nothing goes completely blinky. I wouldn't realistically know what to ask. But I'd ask anyway. Plumbers and such get paid too much to be trusted. But that's the cynic in me...

Eh, part of the problem is that both my husband and I MUST work during the day. The other part is that my dad just got done building a house, and so has recent experience, plus he is usually reasonably knowledgable in these areas, having lived on a farm and been made to do a lot of this type of thing himself over the years, so we've been getting a LOT of advice from him (both wanted and unwanted!) I've got to try and remember that father doesn't always know best.

Anyway, I'm staying home with my sick child again today, so I'll have some time to place a few phone calls. We'll see what I find out.

*sigh* The saga continues. I got the bill from the plumber and they didn't charge me extra for any of the stuff they ended up providing, so I was reasonably satisfied. The contractor said that with or without blame, they'd fix the bathtub at no cost to us. I was reasonably satisfied there too.

But then the basement happened. Over the weekend when I couldn't yell at anyone. Our basement is unfinished; concrete floor, furnace and hot water heater out in the middle of the room... It houses our washer and dryer and a LOT of personal belongings. Due to whatever issues I don't really know about, the washer empties into a sort of cystern with a sump pump in it and the sump carries the water up a pipe and out the regular sewer line.

Well, last night I decided to do some wash. Now, since Friday the light in the basement had not worked, but I assumed it was burned out. I didn't have any replacements, so I carried my laundry down with a flashlight. On Friday, someone had tripped something, but the breaker box shows everything on and nothing tripped.

Went down last night to put the wash into the dryer to find that nearly my entire basement floor was covered in at least SOME water, some with several inches. Something is wrong with the electricity, to include the lights and the outlet the sump was plugged into. (NOT, however, the outlets the washer and dryer were plugged into. I'm sure there's a reason for that.

So, we had to go through all the boxes on the floor, rescuing things, looking to see what was salvagable and swallowing it up to toss the stuff that wasn't, no matter how much we hated it. No one said anything to us Friday about our electricity possibly being effected. I certainly didn't expect it. Now I am so upset I just don't know who to be mad at.

Oh, oh, I hope hope hope you have house insurance? This sort of thing has happened to us several times (part of owning the oldest house in town, I guess). Our insurance has, by far, been the best money we ever spent.
Anyway, even if you don't, if you haven't actually taken the stuff to the dump, keep it. The plumbers or the electricians may possibly be at fault, in which case it is THEIR insurance that will pay you back. Even if you think that the lost stuff has no value except personal, don't be rash until this is sorted. Just as an example of what I mean - after our fire, we went through the kitchen with the insurance agent and tossed out all my spices, flour, jars of macaroni and beans...all things that may have been affected by smoke. Imagine my surprise when it turned out that replacement value of all that stuff came to over $1500. (little things do add up). Take your time over this - you've had enough aggravation, it shouldn't end up costing you money.

We do have home owners' insurance, agony. It's required. And that is some consolation. I haven't thrown anything out yet. I didn't have time. I was down in my basement slogging through the water trying to figure out what was and was not damaged and getting everything to safety until about 2:30am this morning.

By far the biggest problem was laundry and video tapes. Two full cardboard boxes of video tapes... The top layers of tapes were undamaged, and some of the tapes were in the chunky plastic holders, and those tapes were undamaged even if they WERE on the bottom (though, of course, the paper labels in the plastic cases are badly damaged), but I've got about three dozen video tapes lying out on paper towels on my kitchen counter just HOPING I won't have to try to replace them all. I'm not even sure HOW to find a VHS copy of Logan's Run. I was lucky to find the one I did.

The laundry in baskets was sitting where the deepest water was. It sloshed up through the holes in the baskets and soaked the laundry, and of course I couldn't exactly just throw it in the washer at the time... So it's still sitting down there wet. I figured if we got it sorted out yet today, I could do laundry like a mad women tonight and most of it would be salvagable.

A wardrobe box with about $600 worth of formal dresses that I haven't worn in a while but didn't want to get rid of got damaged. Two of the long dresses are soaked on the bottom hems. And these are, of course, dry clean only. Don't know if they'll make it.

And one of my boxes of craft supplies got hit pretty hard. Lots of vintage papers that are not replacable, some yarns that are hard to come by, and a couple of collectable vintage vinyl records were badly damaged. That stuff is lying out to dry wherever I could find room in hopes it will recover at least somewhat.

Bah. I'm sure it had to be the contractors. The plumber was there for a few moments, and he worked in the basement, so the lights had to be working down there for at least the part of the morning he was down there. And it was mid-afternoon, well after the plumber left, that they overloaded the circuit and had to go down and mess with the breaker box. The electrician was done long ago. He hardly had to do anything, and he didn't mess with the wiring in the basement at all. It just HAD to be the contractors. But I haven't got any idea what they could possibly have done to cause this. Grr.