After a number of hours reading different forums and sites regarding this topic I have come to the conclusion that there are more people posting on the web that believe the estranged husband should have no rights regarding his wifes future than there are that think he has any rights.

That proves nothing and I only comment to give an overall view of what I have found the majority are posting on the web.

One of the common ideas discussed is the belief by many people posting on the web that the husband has in fact tried to strangle his wife to death, and it was this murder attempt that led to her be incapacitated. I wont link to any pages that discuss that as there are many less than adult comments interspersed with sensible posts.

Just for interests sake here is a page that alleges to show a bone scan report of her injuries.


Edited to add........This is post number 1000 for me. Do I get a certificate or anything?

Here is a complete report from Dr. William Hammesfahr, who spent over 10 hours with T. Shiavo as opposed to the 30 mins other physician gave her before pronouncing her in a PSV.

Dr. Hammesfahr is the founder of the Hammesfahr Neurological Institute. He was nominated for the Nobel Prize for his work in Medicine and Physiology in 1999. The Nomination was for work started in 1994. In 2000, this work resulted in approval for the first patent in history granted for the treatment of neurological diseases including coma, stroke, brain injury, cerebral palsy, hypoxic injuries and other neurovascular disorders with medications that restore blood flow to the brain. It was extended to treat successfully disabilities including ADD, ADHD, Dyslexia, Tourette's and Autism as well as behaviorally and emotionally disturbed children, seizures and severe migraines.

The federal government has recognized Dr. Hammesfahr’s clinical expertise, naming him Reviewer and Chief Reviewer for evaluation and funding for new clinical research programs. He has also been a court-recognized expert and a court-ordered treating physician for these techniques that he pioneered. He has lectured and published extensively.

Dr. Hammesfahr graduated from the Northwestern Honors Program in Medical Education in 1982, a program which only accepts a small number of high school students directly into medical school. He then trained in Neurosurgery and Neurology at the Medical College in Virginia. He has received Board Certification in both Neurology and Pain Management.

What sort would you like? I have my old Bronze Medal certiticate you can have.



Back on topic - who is paying the hospital bills? and is there an insurance policy?

I just want to say that not ONE of us is medically qualified to say what sort of state this woman is in. So we can point at doctors and everything 'till we're blue in the face, it's not going to help anything anymore than a Republican and a Democrat arguing about what is the proper way to solve the social security solvency problem.

Capisce? (Although I think I spelled that wrong...)

I don`t understand Ladymac.

Quote:

---

I just want to say that not ONE of us is medically qualified to say what sort of state this woman is in. So we can point at doctors and everything 'till we're blue in the face,

---

When presenting opinions and chatting in the forums you don`t want people to give links that explain where they get their views from?
Is the credibility of doctors, and quacks, to not be presented when explaining how you come to have a particular point of view?
On a personal level I would suggest that all doctors opinion are not correct and their judgement MUST be questioned at times.
I was in fact admitted into hospital a number of years ago with moderate to severe closed head injuries. After a brief [or so I was told] examination I was sent home. Sadly this brief exam failed to disclose the nature of my injuries and my condition worsened. The brain swelled and I was once again re-admitted into the same hospital. I was attended by a different doctor [or so I`ve been told I was in a coma by this stage] who spent some considerable time examining me. I have been advised that had the injury been noted and treated the first time I was in hospital the damage may have been lessened. As it was it took me a long time to even be able to speak, dress myself, think coherently [yes I realise it could be debated that I do in fact think coherently at this point in time ]. Guess it`s obvious why I don`t want to see Terri just killed off now.
The point? The various doctors that have seen Terri must be mentioned simply because not all doctors are created equal, and not all doctors act for the patients benefit therefore the opinion of a better educated, qualified and unbiased doctor is of more value to this discussion than that of a lesser doctor.

My point is that not one of us has medical expertise in this case. The husband isn't going to have a doctor quote saying 'oh, yeah, I think she's showing brain activity' and the parents aren't going to have a doctor quote the opposite.

Both doctors can be equally qualified. Of course, not all doctors are created equal, but I think that because this case has dragged on for 15 years, that both sides have gone through second, third, fourth, etc. opinions enough to see that there isn't a consensus and there isn't going to be a consensus - it's not as simple as 'one unqualified doctor'. The case has turned into one side against another, and unfortunately, there will be no 'winning' side.

That's why I'm warning about the way this discussion is/seems to be turning.

Thanks for the clarification.

Probably a worthy request, dg dave. I haven't seen so far, though, that it has been rude or too fiery. Once it gets that way I will chorus your request entirely.

"Capisce" is an Italian word and is spelled the way Ladymacb spelled it. If there would be an h near the end it would have been pronounced differently. It comes from the verb "capire" which mean "to understand".

And Dave, Ladymacb is the moderator of this forum, don't you think she'd have closed this thread already if she thought it was necessary?

Sorry for going off topic....

I use Firefox as my browser and with it I have integrated Babel Fish to translate non-english words. Babel Fish when translating "capisce" from Italian comes up with "it understands".

That was a kind offer Copago, but I was thinking of something in gold, with blue ribbons.

The only time I've heard the word capisce is while watching mafia moves or TV shows...however, I had to frequently use the phrase non capisco (pronounced CAP-IS-KO), i.e. "I do not understand", during my trip to Italy last year.


===
Getting back to the topic: while watching Larry King Live, I heard that during W.'s tenure as governor of Texas, he had approved a bill that allowed a "hopeless" patient's life-support system to be withdrawn under certain circumstances. (On the show, Larry said that it was if the patient's family was unable to pay for the treatment, but all on-line articles I read talked merely about the surrogate's consent.) Either way, this Act does allow for the withdrawal of a life support system, thus directly contradicting many of the reasons (Morality, etc.; quoting Tom DeLay, "The legal and political issues may be complicated but the moral ones are not: a young woman in Florida is being dehydrated and starved to death.") cited by US Congressmen for supporting the Bill. This directly amounts to hypocracy, at least on the part of President Bush. Comments?

TS is not on life support. She merely requires food and water as you and I do.

I've read the bill that Bush signed, it addresses feeding tubes as well.

apparently the Federal government have refused the parents, congress , bush and have refused to order the insertion of the feeding tube.Appeal will be next

The Federal Courts have not refused anyone, really. They have upheld earlier court decisions. And since it is their job not to agree with Congress or the President if they see fit, so be it. I'm glad the courts, at least, are upholding the idea that this is not a matter in which the government should be involved, at least in the way the parents are requesting. I'm not sure why, except to look good for constituents, Congress ever got involved.

The same reason they got involved in the civil rights movement in the '60s, why they are getting involved in the gay marriage debate, because basic human and constitutional rights are being denied to a citizen.

Today is day 5 of TS's starvation. Her skin is beginning to dry and and become flaky. Her parents and siblings are searched before being allowed to see her to make sure they bring nothing in the room they could use to even give this woman a drop of water. A court order has denied her last rites because she is not allowed to have even a wafer or drop of wine placed in her mouth.
Some other interesting tidbits I have read. Again, I do not vouch for any of this and some of it I am skeptical about but it shows there may be more to this case than meets the eye.

1. On Greta Van Suskrin (10-24-03), Dr. Michael Baden said he believes her injuries were due to a head injury, not to a potassium imbalance.

2. Dr. Hammesfahr believes she suffered a neck injury and not a heart attack. Her chief symptom when she was brought to the emergency room was a rigid neck indicating a neck/head injury.

3. 11/05/03: Kate Adamson, a woman who doctors said was in a vegetative state and totally unresponsive for over 2mos before responding on her own, was a guest on The O'Reilly Factor. She also had her feeding tube removed and stated that she could hear everything around her but couldn't respond in any way. She said the starvation process was extremely painful but fortunately her husband was able to force the tube to be reinserted. In her words, it was "sheer torture".

3. MS girlfriend in 1992 (his first after TS's collapse) under oath quotes him as saying "She(TS) upsets my whole life with this and it is all her fault", and "How the hell do I know what to do with her. We never talked about this when we were married. We were young and this was never talked about."

4. It wasn't until 1998 that MS remembered his wife's wish to die. This soon after she received a million dollar settlement to pay for her rehabilitation, which MS has refused to allow, and as Florida was passing a law that allowed feeding tubes to be removed from the disabled.

5. MS continually denied his wife basic rehabilitative therapy. He refused to allow her to be taken outside, have a TV or radio in her room, or even the curtains opened. He allowed no stimulataion whatsoever.

6. At least six neurologists have given testimony that TS is not in a PVS.

7. She swallows her own saliva, a fact that leads some experts in speech pathology to believe that with sufficient time and therapy, she could regain her ability to swallow fluids by mouth.

8. Nursing staff who cared for Terri testified that she could swallow fluids and Jello-O, follow people with her eyes and even speak.

9. Several nurses, including Heidi Law, who cared for TS stated in affadivits that she is responsive and even speaks a few simple words.

10. Two of the nurses portray Terri as a woman who adores baths, liked having her hair combed, and enjoyed a sweet-smelling lotion and soft nightgowns her mother provided.

11. A nurse claims that she "became fearful for my personal safety" and was terminated after she called police about comments and activities at the nursing home relative to the Schiavo woman. "When Michael visited Terri, he always came alone and always had the door closed and locked while he was with Terri," the affidavit alleges. "He would typically be there about twenty minutes or so. When he left Terri would be trembling, crying hysterically, and would be very pale and have cold sweats. It looked to me like Terri was having a hypoglycemic reaction, so I'd check her blood sugar." The glucometer reading would be so low it was below the range where it would register an actual number reading. I would put dextrose in Terri's mouth to counteract it. This happened about five times on my shift as I recall. Normally Terri's blood-sugar levels were very stable due to the uniformity of her diet through tube feeding."

12. Added Heidi Law, the nursing assistant, "When she was upset, which was usually the case after Michael was there, she would withdraw for hours... Several times when Michael visited during my shift, he went into her room alone and closed the door. When he left, Terri was very agitated, was extremely tense with tightened fists, and sometimes had a cold sweat. She was much less responsive than usual and would just stare out the window, her eyes kind of glassy."

This is enough reason to give TS the benefit of the doubt. I don't know if MS is the kind of person some are protraying him to be but after Scott Peterson, we at least know first hand how a psychopath can seem so normal and sympathetic at first glance while a diabolical soul lies underneath. Why are we slowly and cruelly starving this woman to death??

Meanwhile, U.S. servicemen are being sent to prison for putting panties on the heads of prisoners which is being termed a form of torture. How is Abu Graib worse than what we are doing to TS?

Diehard - please re-read what I have posted about how for every account for how Terri Schiavo is aware there is an equally valid medically sound opinion for the opposite.

This is not the controversial issues forum.

The media presents only one side of this issue. I am not trying to be controversial, I am trying to have a meaningful discussion. I am presenting information that is not being discussed in the mainstream media. I am not vouching for this information or exhibiting it as fact, I am just offering it for consideration. A woman's very life is at stake. What could be more meaningful and worthy of discussion? Allow me this last post becuase the information, if true, is astonishing; then I will shut up. Terri Shiavo deserves our every consideration.

This an affidavit by Carla Iyer, her RN at Palm Garden.

STATE OF FLORIDA )
COUNTY OF PINELLAS )

BEFORE ME the undersigned authority personally appeared CARLA
SAUER IYER, R.N., who being first duly sworn, deposes and says:

1. My name is Carla Sauer Iyer. I am over the age of eighteen and make
this statement of my own personal knowledge.

2. I am a registered nurse in the State of Florida, having been licensed
continuously in Florida from 1997 to the present. Prior to that I was a
Licensed Practical Nurse for about four years.

3. I was employed at Palm Garden of Largo Convalescent Center in
Largo, Florida from April 1995 to July 1996, while Terri Schiavo
was a patient there.

4. It was clear to me at Palm Gardens that all decisions regarding Terri
Schiavo were made by Michael Schiavo, with no allowance made for
any discussion, debate or normal professional judgment. My initial
training there consisted solely of the instruction "Do what Michael
Schiavo tells you or you will be terminated." This struck me as
extremely odd.

-1-

5. I was very disturbed by the decision making protocol, as no allowance
whatsoever was made for professional responsibility. The atmosphere
throughout the facility was dominated by Mr. Schiavo's intimidation.
Everyone there, with the exception of several people who seemed to be
close to Michael, was intimidated by him. Michael Schiavo always
had an overbearing attitude, yelling numerous times such things as
"This is my order and you're going to follow it." He is very large and
uses menacing body language, such as standing too close to you,
getting right in your face and practically shouting.

6. To the best of my recollection, rehabilitation had been ordered for
Terri, but I never saw any being done or had any reason at all to
believe that there was ever any rehab of Terri done at Palm Gardens
while I was there. I became concerned because Michael wanted
nothing done for Terri at all, no antibiotics, no tests, no range of
motion therapy, no stimulation, no nothing. Michael said again and
again that Terri should NOT get any rehab, that there should be no
range of motion whatsoever, or anything else. I and a CNA named
Roxy would give Terri range of motion anyway. One time I put a
wash cloth in Terri's hand to keep her fingers from curling together,

-2-

and Michael saw it and made me take it out, saying that was therapy.

7. Terri's medical condition was systematically distorted and
misrepresented by Michael. When I worked with her, she was alert
and oriented. Terri spoke on a regular basis while in my presence,
saying such things as "mommy," and "help me." "Help me" was, in
fact, one of her most frequent utterances. I heard her say it hundreds
of times. Terri would try to say the word "pain" when she was in
discomfort, but it came out more like "pay." She didn't say the "n"
sound very well. During her menses she would indicate her discomfort
by saying "pay" and moving her arms toward her lower abdominal
area. Other ways that she would indicate that she was in pain included
pursing her lips, grimacing, thrashing in bed, curling her toes or
moving her legs around. She would let you know when she had a
bowel movement by flipping up the covers and pulling on her diaper
and scooted in bed on her bottom.

8. When I came into her room and said "Hi, Terri", she would always
recognize my voice and her name, and would turn her head all the way
toward me, saying "Haaaiiiii" sort of, as she did. I recognized this as a
"hi", which is very close to what it sounded like, the whole sound

-3-

being only a second or two long. When I told her humrous stories
about my life or something I read in the paper, Terri would chuckle,
sometimes more a giggle or laugh. She would move her whole body,
upper and lower. Her legs would sometimes be off the bed, and need
to be repositioned. I made numerous entries into the nursing notes in
her chart, stating verbatim what she said and her various behaviors, but
by my next on-duty shift, the notes would be deleted from her chart.
Every time I made a positive entry about any responsiveness of Terri's,
someone would remove it after my shift ended. Michael always
demanded to see her chart as soon as he arrived, and would take it in
her room with him. I documented Terri's rehab potential well,
writing whole pages about Terri's responsiveness, but they would
always be deleted by the next time I saw her chart. The reason I wrote
so much was that everybody else seemed to be afraid to make positive
entries for fear of their jobs, but I felt very strongly that a nurses job
was to accurately record everything we see and hear that bears on a
patients condition and their family. I upheld the Nurses Practice Act,
and if it cost me my job, I was willing to accept that.

9. Throughout my time at Palm Gardens, Michael Schiavo was focused

-4-

on Terri's death. Michael would say "When is she going to die?,"
"Has she died yet?" and "When is that bitch gonna die?" These
statements were common knowledge at Palm Gardens, as he would
make them casually in passing, without regard even for who he was
talking to, as long as it was a staff member. Other statements which I
recall him making include "Can't anything be done to accelerate her
death - won't she ever die?" When she wouldn't die, Michael would
be furious. Michael was also adamant that the family should not be
given information. He made numerous statements such as "Make sure
the parents aren't contacted." I recorded Michael's statements word
for word in Terri's chart, but these entries were also deleted after the
end of my shift. Standing orders were that the family wasn't to be
contacted, in fact, there was a large sign in the front of her chart that
said under no circumstances was her family to be called, call Michael
immediately, but I would call them, anyway, because I thought they
should know about their daughter.

10. Any time Terri would be sick, like with a UTI or fluid buildup in her
lungs, colds, or pneumonia, Michael would be visibly excited, thrilled
even, hoping that she would die. He would say something like,

-5-

"Hallelujah! You've made my day!" He would call me, as I was the
nurse supervisor on the floor, and ask for every little detail about her
temperature, blood pressure, etc., and would call back frequently
asking if she was dead yet. He would blurt out "I'm going to be rich!"
and would talk about all the things he would buy when Terri died,
which included a new car, a new boat, and going to Europe, among
other things.

11. When Michael visited Terri, he always came alone and always had the
door closed and locked while he was with Terri. He would typically
be there about twenty minutes or so. When he left Terri would be
trembling, crying hysterically, and would be very pale and have cold
sweats. It looked to me like Terri was having a hypoglycemic reaction,
so I'd check her blood sugar. The glucometer reading would be so low
it was below the range where it would register an actual number
reading. I would put dextrose in Terri's mouth to counteract it. This
happened about five times on my shift, as I recall. Normally Terri's
blood sugar levels were very stable due to the uniformity of her diet
through tube feeding. It is medically possible that Michael injected
Terri with Regular insulin, which is very fast acting, but I don't have

-6-

any way of knowing for sure.

12. The longer I was employed at Palm Gardens the more concerned I
became about patient care, both relating to Terri Schiavo, for the
reasons I've said, and other patients, too. There was an LPN named
Carolyn Adams, known as "Andy" Adams who was a particular
concern. An unusual number of patients seemed to die on her shift,
but she was completely unconcerned, making statements such as
"They are old - let them die." I couldn't believe her attitude or the fact
that it didn't seem to attract any attention. She made many comments
about Terri being a waste of money, that she should die. She said it
was costing Michael a lot of money to keep her alive, and that he
complained about it constantly (I heard him complain about it all the
time, too.) Both Michael and Adams said that she would be worth
more to him if she were dead. I ultimately called the police relative to
this situation, and was terminated the next day. Other reasons were
cited, but I was convinced it was because of my "rocking the boat."

13. Ms. Adams was one of the people who did not seem to be intimidated
by Michael. In fact, they seemed to be very close, and Adams would
do whatever Michael told her. Michael sometimes called Adams at

-7-

night and spoke at length. I was not able to hear the content of these
phone calls, but I knew it was him talking to her because she would
tell me afterward and relay orders from him.

14. I have contacted the Schindler family because I just couldn't stand by
and let Terri die without the truth being known.

FURTHER AFFIANT SAYETH NAUGHT.

<signed>
CARLA SAUER IYER, R.N.

The foregoing instrument was acknowledged before me this 29 day of August,
2003, by CARLA SAUER IYER, R.N., who produced her Florida's driver's license
as identification, and who did take an oath.

<signed Patricia J. Anderson>
Notary Public

My commission expires
<Notary seal of Patricia J. Anderson>

I never claimed I was unbiased. I stated from the beginning that I thought it was inhumane to kill this woman. Because I am advocating a position does not make this a controversial thread. Everyone who has posted has advocated a position. Any time I give my opinion, or you give yours, I am advocating a position. But it is what it is...my opinion. The news is supposed to be about fact, not opinion. I have not seen one report in mainstream media about doctors who have stated this woman isn't in a PVS. It is reported as fact that the woman is in a PVS. Shouldn't we find out the truth before we kill her? That's all I'm saying. Find out the truth! In a few days the truth will be too late.

Hope all works out.