#271413 - Fri Jul 22 2005 03:33 PM
Re: Explosions in London
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Registered: Wed Mar 15 2000
Posts: 16214
Loc: The Delta Quadrant
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Quote:
So. Is that a good thing or not? I suppose until the first totally innocent person gets shot it's not such a bad tactic. My thought was for these suicide bombers - that their families would be put in gaol for their crimes. I know I know there are civil liberties group redy to pounce on me but it might make these suicide bombers think twice.
We were talking about this at lunch... The thing was, the guy was running, the police were yelling at him to stop (and with reports of at least 20 plainclothes police plus how many other uniform police), and he kept running. This happened the day after the second terrorist attack in two weeks. Even a moron who jumped the fare gate and just happened to be wearing a thick coat because he didn't feel like holding it in his hands should have stopped. Even with all the commotion, bystanders generally stop and look at what's going on to get out of the way.
In Israel, the police unfortunately have learned you have to assume someone is armed and could potentially be wired with a bomb, especially if they aren't obeying police instructions. This is the mindset the rest of the world is starting to learn with the increase of suicide attacks elsewhere in the world. Also, for the 'shoot to kill', all a suicide bomber who is determined needs is one tiny movement of the finger or whatever, so wounding won't stop them. It's the old 'Star Trek' quote "The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the one..."
Edited by ladymacb29 (Fri Jul 22 2005 03:35 PM)
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#271416 - Sat Jul 23 2005 11:14 AM
Re: Explosions in London
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Registered: Wed Oct 17 2001
Posts: 8479
Loc: Hastings Sussex
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I doubt whether the full truth will emerge for a very long time, if ever. However, the police are now officially saying that the dead man was “unconnected” with the bombings. This is the BBC version of the news, which went online about twenty minutes ago. The commercial TV news bulletin an hour ago said much the same thing.
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#271417 - Sat Jul 23 2005 01:40 PM
Re: Explosions in London
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Registered: Sun Dec 19 1999
Posts: 38004
Loc: Jersey
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Just got around to reading this thread. The surgeons operating in the private hospital that I am in where put on standby to return to their NHS hospital, then stood down. Originally I was booked for surgery that day, not that I would have fancied it had I known the surgeon was on tenderhooks until he heard his daughter who works in one afffected area was safe.
Another of the lucky escape stories, my best friend's daughter is a medical student and missed her train - yes, one of those blown up. She tried to catch next one but it was cancelled so she went home after being texted by her brother telling her to get home at once.
I was also panicking about Joe but couldn't do much about it.
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#271418 - Sat Jul 23 2005 02:28 PM
Re: Explosions in London
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Registered: Wed Mar 15 2000
Posts: 16214
Loc: The Delta Quadrant
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http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/07/23/london.tube/index.htmlThe man who died at Stockwell station was a Brazilian national who exited the apartment building that had been under surveillance. "Officers followed him to the Stockwell Underground station. The man's "clothing and suspicious behavior at the station added to their suspicions," a police statement said. He challenged police and refused to obey orders before he was shot and killed Friday morning, Blair said Friday."
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#271419 - Sat Jul 23 2005 02:30 PM
Re: Explosions in London
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Prolific
Registered: Tue May 17 2005
Posts: 1138
Loc: Hull Yorkshire England UK
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Brazilian. They don't even LOOK asian. Do we think that the police are getting jittery, or trigger happy? I think it might be the latter...
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#271421 - Sat Jul 23 2005 03:00 PM
Re: Explosions in London
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Registered: Sun Apr 29 2001
Posts: 4095
Loc: Norwich England�UK���ï...
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As so often, the government refuses to trust the public. For a start, they don't even officially acknowlege that there's a "shoot-to-kill" policy. (After all, it has an unpleasant Northern Ireland ring to it). So, they haven't issued any advice to bystanders on the "Supreme Importance of Not Attracting Further Suspicion". Instead the public has to work that one out from events, as reported in the media.
If the police were really so sure that this man was a grave menace to the public, surely they should have arrested him several hours earlier and searched his home.
I'm not sure I believe that story about the name and address having been found in a real terrorist's rucksack. After all, the police have to give out some excuse or other for what happened.
Like Tabby Tom, I don't think we'll ever be told the truth about this.
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Edited to add this link, which says the man shot was unconnected to the bombings:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4711021.stm
Edited by bloomsby (Sat Jul 23 2005 08:22 PM)
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#271422 - Sat Jul 23 2005 03:50 PM
Re: Explosions in London
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Moderator
Registered: Tue May 15 2001
Posts: 14384
Loc: Australia
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Quote:
An Innocent man died because they got their information mixed up.
By police who are trying to protect a group who had quite a few innocent people killed recently.
Quote:
The man who died at Stockwell station was a Brazilian national who exited the apartment building that had been under surveillance.
"Officers followed him to the Stockwell Underground station. The man's "clothing and suspicious behavior at the station added to their suspicions," a police statement said.
That'll do me.
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#271423 - Sun Jul 24 2005 03:04 AM
Re: Explosions in London
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Administrator
Registered: Sun Dec 19 1999
Posts: 38004
Loc: Jersey
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Do all terrorists have to be Asian or have I missed something here?
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#271425 - Sun Jul 24 2005 05:18 PM
Re: Explosions in London
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Moderator
Registered: Tue May 15 2001
Posts: 14384
Loc: Australia
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Yes, I want them protecting me, if they are going to kill a man who was acting suspiciously around a tube station with a large coat on seems good enough for me. If nothing else then it sends a message that the police aren't taking chances. For too long we've (the west) been trying to take the moral high ground and perhaps it's about time to play at the terrorist level.
George W. started this "war on terrorism" - did he not expect them to fight back?
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#271427 - Sun Jul 24 2005 10:09 PM
Re: Explosions in London
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Prolific
Registered: Mon Jun 03 2002
Posts: 1037
Loc: Hobart Tasmania Australia
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I am quite sure that the poor guy didn't realise that they were police, because they were in plain clothes, and therfore he probably thought they were armed terrorists trying to take hostages and he ran.
The guy was extremely unlucky. For the following reasons
1) He just happened to live in the same apartment block (it was a block not a house) as the suspects.
2) He was Brazilian,had a dark tan and therefore could be mistaken for being Middle Eatern/Asian
3) Because he was from Brazil 22 degrees felt cool to him and therefore he put on a coat. I know a woman from Brisbane who believe 22C is cold.
4) Though he spoke English he might have had trouble understanding English under certain conditions i.e. many people shouting at him in a crowded station. Also someone has more trouble understanding a second language when they are stress and seeing armed men is a stressful situation.
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#271428 - Mon Jul 25 2005 12:38 AM
Re: Explosions in London
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Multiloquent
Registered: Mon Feb 10 2003
Posts: 2167
Loc: Sydney
NSW Australia
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What a terrible series of events to have occurred in London. I hope the animals that plannned and carried out these actions are caught, killed and buried in pig skins in a cess pool somewhere. A mate of mine answered a phone call and was thus saved from being injured or killed in the bus bomb blast. That there were not serious results from the second wave of attacks was pure good luck and I`m thankful I didn`t read of another death toll.
The gentleman that was shot dead was just unlucky, nothing more to it. Londoners certainly don`t want another repeat of the first or second attacks and feel they must err on the side of caution.
Edited by damnsuicidalroos (Mon Jul 25 2005 12:44 AM)
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#271429 - Mon Jul 25 2005 02:15 AM
Re: Explosions in London
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Administrator
Registered: Sun Dec 19 1999
Posts: 38004
Loc: Jersey
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Don't blame the police for this killing, it is the work of the terrorists, they might as well have pulled the triggers themselves. If there wasn't a terrorist problem then police would not have been watching the building, the man would not have been shot. Simple.
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#271430 - Mon Jul 25 2005 03:35 AM
Re: Explosions in London
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Prolific
Registered: Mon Jun 03 2002
Posts: 1037
Loc: Hobart Tasmania Australia
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Yes, the reason for the policy lies at the feet of the terrorists.
However that does not eleviate the sorrow that should be felt over this poor man's death. I have seen at some other sites people blaming him for his own death. On one site a couple of people said he should be awarded the Darwin prize because he ran.
However, I am sure the poor guy had no idea that they were police. He had been stopped by police in the past and had always cooperated so it seems that he genuinely didn't realise that these men were the police. He thought that yjey were muggers, or terrorists trying to take hostages, or else someone who was going to bash him because they had mistaken him for a Muslim. Acording to a friend he had been assaulted by a group of white men a couple of weeks before so maybe he thought this was happening again.
How frightened he must have been. The poor man. People who witness it said he looked like a 'scared rabbit' when he was trying to get away.
I hope that something is done for his dirt-poor parents in Brazil. His father has cancer and Jean Charles was sending money home to them to pay for the cancer treatment.
Edited by Kuu (Mon Jul 25 2005 03:40 AM)
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#271431 - Mon Jul 25 2005 04:44 AM
Re: Explosions in London
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Administrator
Registered: Sun Dec 19 1999
Posts: 38004
Loc: Jersey
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We are talking London here, 20 guys waving guns, that is just not going to happen - bombs yes, guns no, not 20 men at once - and mostly, if not all, white men and fairly smartly dressed.
Yes I feel for him and his family but at the end of the day when they are probably yelling "Police, stop!", they actually mean you to stop and not run.
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#271432 - Mon Jul 25 2005 05:44 AM
Re: Explosions in London
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Forum Adept
Registered: Fri Nov 28 2003
Posts: 174
Loc: The Netherlands
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In broad daylight Policemen shoot five bullets into the head of a terrorist suspect in front of witnesses?
This doesn't sound like the British Police at all but rather an SAS hit.
As was said earlier, I don't think the truth of this is ever going to be known.
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#271434 - Mon Jul 25 2005 01:33 PM
Re: Explosions in London
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Prolific
Registered: Mon Jun 03 2002
Posts: 1037
Loc: Hobart Tasmania Australia
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Quote:
We are talking London here, 20 guys waving guns, that is just not going to happen - bombs yes, guns no, not 20 men at once - and mostly, if not all, white men and fairly smartly dressed.
Yes I feel for him and his family but at the end of the day when they are probably yelling "Police, stop!", they actually mean you to stop and not run.
From what witnesses had said only three plain clothes policemen were chasing him. There might have been more at the station but only three chased him. One was dressed in a tracksuit, one in a suit and one in jeans. At least one eyewitness, Lee Rushton, has stated that he didn't hear them identify themselves as police. Mr Rushton said he only heard them shout 'get down on the floor'
It is possible however that the police identified themselves before he entered the station.
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#271435 - Tue Jul 26 2005 05:10 AM
Re: Explosions in London
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Forum Adept
Registered: Fri Nov 28 2003
Posts: 174
Loc: The Netherlands
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Quote :"Don't get all conspiracy-theorist on this, it was the British police."
Really? What makes you so convinced that it was Lady McB? Lots of shootings of terrorists during the Northern Ireland troubles of the 1970's/80's were largely credited to the RUC (Ulster Police Force). But let me tell you that the SAS and other special forces were highy active around that time and were responsible for many of the hits. Never believe totally the official version of events, a lot more goes on behind the scenes than you realise.
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#271436 - Tue Jul 26 2005 05:24 AM
Re: Explosions in London
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Registered: Sun Dec 19 1999
Posts: 38004
Loc: Jersey
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I guess working for the FBI (as she does) might just give Beth an insight into what happens behind the scenes, as you put it Mexico!  Not that she is going to pass any confidential information to us here - she might just have to shoot us then!
Edited by sue943 (Tue Jul 26 2005 05:31 AM)
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#271437 - Tue Jul 26 2005 01:33 PM
Re: Explosions in London
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Registered: Wed Mar 15 2000
Posts: 16214
Loc: The Delta Quadrant
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The police were working off orders from the previous supervisor who had seen the way things are done in Israel (the policy where it's better to have a suspected terrorist dead than a terrorist being wounded and able to set off a bomb).
It was the police who who were surveiling the building because of information found in one of the bookbags left on 21 July. I know this both from the media and from other sources.
The police followed the Brazilian because he looked suspicious and resembled one of the photographs (at the time, they were still trying to clear up the photos).
The Brazilian either began to act suspicious or the police decided to stop and question him. Whichever it was, the Brazilian did not obey police orders and continued into the subway station running from the police.
This was not a 'hit' on someone so some covert agency could kill someone on their list. This was an accidental shooting of someone who was acting suspiciously by police officers who were in the midst of investigating the second terrorist attack in two months. The police (although they probably won't admit it) were scared. They were scared that this guy was going to be terrorist attack #3 and they desperately wanted to make sure it wasn't going to happen. In the split second, they made the decision that yes, they had enough cause to shoot.
As I said before, do not get all conspiracy theorist if you don't have the evidence to back it up because there are people here who might have evidence to contradict it, as Sue pointed out. Sometimes if it barks like a dog and says it's a dog, it really is a dog.
Edited by ladymacb29 (Tue Jul 26 2005 01:43 PM)
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